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Sex equality.


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#151
Maria Caliban

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The Baconer wrote...

Pointless discussion. Just because it's a fact of reality has no bearing on whether or not it should be portrayed in the game. Which it shouldn't.


I am going to agree.

BioWare games skip large parts of biology: no eating, no sleeping, no washing, no going to the bathroom, no STIs, no gangrene, and no aging.

I don't understand the need to simulate sex-based differences in muscle mass in a game where I can hit someone once with my sword and they explode like a balloon full of sheep's blood.

#152
AkiKishi

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I don't disagree with that. But I still don't see why you can't have the same sort of CC options that you get in an EA sports game.

From around 3:00


Modifié par BobSmith101, 07 avril 2011 - 02:35 .


#153
Silvernight

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Maria Caliban wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

Pointless discussion. Just because it's a fact of reality has no bearing on whether or not it should be portrayed in the game. Which it shouldn't.


I am going to agree.

BioWare games skip large parts of biology: no eating, no sleeping, no washing, no going to the bathroom, no STIs, no gangrene, and no aging.

I don't understand the need to simulate sex-based differences in muscle mass in a game where I can hit someone once with my sword and they explode like a balloon full of sheep's blood.


Couldn't have said it better. ^_^

#154
IntoTheDarkness

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Reality =/ Fantasy arguement is NOT very convincing to me.








People who argue that it is pointless to compare reality with fantasy world are not making a very good argument. Any literature, any cultural pieces are only regarded highly when they depict 'real' humans, no matter what the piece is about. The contemplation of 'humanity' is the whole point of any literature. Tell me ONE novel that has received the novel prize without discussing human's inner side in depth. NONE.

This is WHY we almost always, if not 100%, have humans as one of races in the SF/ Fantasy world. Even if the protagonist is from different races, they follow the nature or routine pattern that humans show in the real world. There is a reason why if you read comics like Berserk most creatures are based on human form(even if they look different, larger; they have a set of eyes, arms, etc...). We should at least admit that most things are made human central. If fantasy world cannot depict real humans, it's immense is damaged. There can be alterations, but basically we will not have 'stronger women' in average in any games unless there are specific reasons.

Be it Harry Potter, LOTR, Matrix, they all have magic and creatures that do not exist in the real world, but they have 'humans'. If we lived their world, we would act exactly the same. There will be heroes, and great wise men like Gandalf who act to protect humanity while there will be villains as well. LOTR is regarded one of the best classic BECAUSE it is created based on Northern Europe myth and expanded on it, as well as carrying conviction of what humans are like.

I'm not saying women should be inferior or anything. I'm saying that Men's supiority in strengh is one of factors that forms our society, thoughts, and cultures. These features could be depicted to a lesser extent. (not like 40% stregnth for women.) Having exact equal gender role is the same as HAVING ONE GENDER.

If you truly seek 'fantasy' that is different from reality, maybe you should wonder why ET, Alliance, Elves, Dwarfs and all other races are so similar to humans in appearance, behavior, social structure, and ways of thinking.

Modifié par IntoTheDarkness, 07 avril 2011 - 02:57 .


#155
FlintlockJazz

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I have no problems with the proposal to have more realistic body shapes for female warriors and the like, especially if it was linked to strength (I'd also like effeminate-looking men as well). If you have read my posts on armour, you'll all know that I am opposed to the chainmail-bikini look, and barbie-style body shapes come under the same umbrella of problems in my book along with over-muscled men (WoW is one of the worst, when I tried it one time even my mage looked like Conan).

As for gender-differences in game, I think I have also made my opinion on that clear: real-world differences is too awkward to simulate in stats, and not needed. As long as the world is internally consistent with how gender affects role and perception it's not a problem, especially since it doesn't visibly go against real-world mechanics like fighting in space without a spacesuit would, unless of course it's the aforementioned barbie-doll skinny rake wearing a chainmail bikini and wielding a halberd. Less exploitation and more armour please.

In short, I don't want my male mage to be penalised because he doesn't have bewbs and I don't want my female warrior to be penalised because she lacks a wang.

#156
Abispa

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I hate it that role playing games aren't realistic, dammit. I mean, there I am, swinging my sword and casting my spells at some Darkspawn, dragons and rage demons, and then Isabella or Meredith come on the scene and start kicking ass. It's so unrealistic and takes me right out of the game.

#157
IntoTheDarkness

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I would personally like to play an inferior woman characters just to hear complements, "Wow, you handle yourselves as well as any men."

It would add to my experience and do not give me the feeling that I'm playing a female-looking male whose only difference is the romance interests in men. (Apparently this isn't true anymore with DA2.)

Modifié par IntoTheDarkness, 07 avril 2011 - 02:57 .


#158
Abispa

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Seriously, though, there is plenty of indication that females are, on average, smaller and weaker than males, and many NPCs have commented in ways that seem to indicate that women aren't expected to be the bad-ass that you're playing. But you are playing a bad ass character, no matter what sex you choose. Hawke and the Warden are not representative of all men, let alone women, and there's no reason that the female character needed for the adventure can't match the male. And, if it bothers you so much, you could always alter the stats on your own. Give the female a higher DEX or WIL and the male higher STR or CON. Various bonuses are applied automatically.

#159
Dark83

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Taura-Tierno wrote...

Sure, most men are physically
stronger (or capable of being physically stronger) than most women, but
that isn't always true. Some women are stronger than many men, and
that's that.

Bingo.

Changes in stats for gender is stupid. Not because men and women aren't physically different, but because of the character. A female warrior is unlikely to be weaker than the average male. A male rogue is unlikely to be less agile than the average female.

Any disparity in attributes that can be attributed to stats is outweighed by the similiarities due to profession and training.

#160
element eater

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The average man is stronger then the average women. But, since when has the lead character in an RPG been average? Besides if a woman had spent her life wielding swords and wearing armour her body would have developed to do so, and she wouldn't significantly suffer in terms of the natural strength of her gender.

more gender specific dialogue would be nice. However, i suspect the reason this is rarely done in rpg's is less about gender issues and more about the extra work it creates developers.

also......

IntoTheDarkness wrote...

Women possess worse perception, added to their physical disadvantage. Often bad at directions.

edit; damn, just saw post above he hits the nail on the head with his statement


[Dexterity: Men > Women]


im sorry but this is just nonsense the phrase you should have used is 'spacial awareness' not perception.
This in turn has no affect on physical ability atleast not in any way you could feasably equate to combat in a video. game

Modifié par element eater, 07 avril 2011 - 03:22 .


#161
The Sum of all Evil

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Dark83 wrote...

Taura-Tierno wrote...

Sure, most men are physically
stronger (or capable of being physically stronger) than most women, but
that isn't always true. Some women are stronger than many men, and
that's that.

Bingo.

Changes in stats for gender is stupid. Not because men and women aren't physically different, but because of the character. A female warrior is unlikely to be weaker than the average male. A male rogue is unlikely to be less agile than the average female.

Any disparity in attributes that can be attributed to stats is outweighed by the similiarities due to profession and training.


Actually the question is, whether a female warrior is likely to be weaker than a male warrior and so on.

Of course there always are the exceptions to the rule. But a woman that is as strong as a man is a noteworthy exception. A trained woman that is as strong as a trained man is a very noteworthy exception. Which wolud make Hawke a very noteworthy person to begin with. 

#162
Dark83

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The Sum of all Evil wrote...

Actually the question is, whether a female warrior is likely to be weaker than a male warrior and so on.

Of course there always are the exceptions to the rule. But a woman that is as strong as a man is a noteworthy exception. A trained woman that is as strong as a trained man is a very noteworthy exception. Which wolud make Hawke a very noteworthy person to begin with. 

If you weren't noteworthy, you woudln't be the protagonist of a combat heavy game.

The Coward's Tale: Running Away And Cowering isn't much of a game. Nor is The Second Stringer: Not Good Enough.

#163
The Sum of all Evil

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Dark83 wrote...

The Sum of all Evil wrote...

Actually the question is, whether a female warrior is likely to be weaker than a male warrior and so on.

Of course there always are the exceptions to the rule. But a woman that is as strong as a man is a noteworthy exception. A trained woman that is as strong as a trained man is a very noteworthy exception. Which wolud make Hawke a very noteworthy person to begin with. 

If you weren't noteworthy, you woudln't be the protagonist of a combat heavy game.

The Coward's Tale: Running Away And Cowering isn't much of a game. Nor is The Second Stringer: Not Good Enough.


True, but then you should be noted. Also half of Thedas can't be noteworthy, because well.. then you would no longer be.

From the OP, for reference:

I personally would appreciate diferentiation between different genders. When playing female, I would like to recieve more comments about how odd it is to see a woman on a battlefield, and as a man character I wish I could make dirty sexual innuendos on wenches.

Modifié par The Sum of all Evil, 07 avril 2011 - 03:38 .


#164
_Aine_

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Maria Caliban wrote...

I am going to agree.

BioWare games skip large parts of biology: no eating, no sleeping, no washing, no going to the bathroom, no STIs, no gangrene, and no aging.

I don't understand the need to simulate sex-based differences in muscle mass in a game where I can hit someone once with my sword and they explode like a balloon full of sheep's blood.


This.  It's a game.  

As for real life?  Food for thought on gender differences.  :devil: 

#165
Taura-Tierno

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I wouldn't mind playing a female protagonist who actually like as strong as she is. Someone who isn't slim, but well-muscled and looks like a bad-ass warrior you seriously don't want to mess with. A woman doesn't have to be huge and just muscles to look, you know ... strong. There are plenty of actresses who manage to look strong and warrior-like instead of slim and weak, and who're still considered attractive by the crowds. I wouldn't mind playing a female protagonist who actually is just large and rough either, for that matter. Every female protagonist doesn't have to look "hot".

#166
Dark83

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Maria Caliban wrote...

no STIs

Actually, Anders gave Isabela a salve for that. :whistle:

#167
Carfax

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Dark83 wrote...

Taura-Tierno wrote...

Sure, most men are physically
stronger (or capable of being physically stronger) than most women, but
that isn't always true. Some women are stronger than many men, and
that's that.

Bingo.

Changes in stats for gender is stupid. Not because men and women aren't physically different, but because of the character. A female warrior is unlikely to be weaker than the average male. A male rogue is unlikely to be less agile than the average female.

Any disparity in attributes that can be attributed to stats is outweighed by the similiarities due to profession and training.


Not that I'm in favor of different gender stats, but I can't sit idly by and not correct ignorant comments like the above.

First of all, when it comes to physical strength, men regardless of whether they are average or not will always have a higher baseline and greater potential than women.

This is due to the presence of higher levels of testosterone, which has anabolic qualities and enables men to build and retain muscle mass much easier than women, and also has an effect on haemoglobin levels in the blood.

Can a well trained woman be stronger than the average man?  Sure..  But give that same average man comparable training, and he will then become stronger than her..

All of this is assuming that steroids and other artificial hormones are not involved.  Female bodybuilders and powerlifters that take or abuse steroids don't fit the usual trend at all, since their testosterone levels are elevated beyond that of the average male.

#168
Skithus

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I am not going to argue whether or not men typically tend to be stronger than women physically. What I am going to say, is that religion has always had a large role in defining gender roles in a society.  Most real world religions have traditions based on texts that, at some point or another, have labeled women as not just physically weaker, but as lesser overall. They have often been regarded as property to be traded or as emotionally or mentally inferior to men and thus needing to have their decisions made for them by a father or a husband. There are often rules about how they are to be punished for disobeying like they were children, and to not be allowed to speak or participate in religious services.  Much of this just reflects the cultural attitudes that existed when the texts were written, but they have persisted.

Now take into account that the dominant religious text in the parts of Thedas we have seen so far is the Chant of Light.  The main hero, religious leader and role model for their religion was a WOMAN.  In their churches, the positions of power are held by women, and the men serve to a lesser degree.  Because the theology behind their religion is so radically different in terms of the position of a woman, there is almost a role reversal from the gender roles we see in real religions.

 So, in Thedas, it is completely reasonable that, because of the attitudes instilled about the position of women by their religion, women would be given equal standing to men in military and other jobs, REGARDLESS of whether or not they are physically equal.  Because it is going against the moral grain of what is pretty much the state religion to consider women inferior.  Just like how, in modern society, new attitudes about the equality of women has lead to a shift in the hiring practices and assignment practices of women for physical labor, law enforcement and military service.  Even if women do tend to be physically not as strong as men, the changes in attitude regarding their role seem to have more to do with what jobs they are perfoming than the base physical comparison.  Imagine the same principle applied to a world where the bias hasn't existed for hundreds or thousands of years.

And sexism, for story purposes does exist in the game, among those who do not follow the Chant of Light.  Sten has a very definite idea of what a woman should do, based on the Qun, and it's not fight. And even within the Chantry-controlled, there are variations by region.  The story of Aveline and comments by Fergus' wife indicates that Orlais has a more restrictive view about the role of women than there is in the Free Marches and Ferelden. We've just been presented with a society whose ideals have evolved differently than our own- has nothing to do with being "realistic"- it's just the setting they gave us.

From a gameplay standpoint, more recognition of gender differences would make for a more immersive game environment, but those recognitions don't have the be the sexist comments or the "wenching" that the OP is requesting.  And in terms of stat differences- no one wants the mechanical aspects of their gameplay to be affected because they are a woman, or choose to play a woman. No one should be forced to play the game as a male because they don't want the stats to screw up their character progression.  Just like in every other game- to give someone an in-game advantage because they prefer to play characters of their own (or another) gender is kind of unfair.  The gender choice is to help us relate MORE to the game, and to make us choose between that and optimum stats is a bad storytelling and marketing idea.

Modifié par Skithus, 07 avril 2011 - 04:22 .


#169
The Baconer

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IntoTheDarkness wrote...
I'm not saying women should be inferior or anything. I'm saying that Men's supiority in strengh is one of factors that forms our society, thoughts, and cultures. These features could be depicted to a lesser extent. (not like 40% stregnth for women.) Having exact equal gender role is the same as HAVING ONE GENDER.


The way I see it, they could only implement gender differences in two ways:

-Each gender gets very, very minor bonuses for 'flavor' purposes. In the long run, such a feature would be a waste of space and would only exist to frustrate powergamers who have to optimize everything in a build.

-Gender bonuses and penalties have a large enough effect to have in impact in the long run. This would essentially make playing as a certain gender pointless if they don't get the best bonuses for their class, unless you do it just for RP purposes. It would also cause a large backlash among the fanbase.

Either way it's not worth it to Bioware to implement gender differences.

#170
xkg

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v_ware wrote...

This thread is full of fail and semi-science.


imo it is very interesting to read and most are just opinions and i like to read and know what other thinks
On the other hand your post is completly unwanted doesnt add anything to discussion and it is you who FAILED miserably here

Modifié par xkg, 07 avril 2011 - 04:02 .


#171
Kidd

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Boiny Bunny wrote...

Do we really live in such a world of ridiculous political correctness that we cannot even acknowledge that a man and a woman are, on average, better at different things?

Hawke isn't an average person. Female warrior Hawke will be a lot stronger than both men and women in general, and male mage Hawke may realistically be slightly stronger than female mage Hawke... but it really doesn't make any difference. Weak, or weak but slightly weaker? Irrelevant. Just makes the game look sexist.

#172
Kommandant Schaefer

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i didnt notice the "e" in "equality" first lol...

#173
ReallyRue

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IntoTheDarkness wrote...

I personally would appreciate diferentiation between different genders. When playing female, I would like to recieve more comments about how odd it is to see a woman on a battlefield, and as a man character I wish I could make dirty sexual innuendos on wenches.


My female character would make dirty innuendos about wenches. My male character is gay and not interested.

#174
Zkyire

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Skithus wrote...

I am not going to argue whether or not men typically tend to be stronger than women physically. What I am going to say, is that religion has always had a large role in defining gender roles in a society.  Most real world religions have traditions based on texts that, at some point or another, have labeled women as not just physically weaker, but as lesser overall. They have often been regarded as property to be traded or as emotionally or mentally inferior to men and thus needing to have their decisions made for them by a father or a husband. There are often rules about how they are to be punished for disobeying like they were children, and to not be allowed to speak or participate in religious services.  Much of this just reflects the cultural attitudes that existed when the texts were written, but they have persisted.

Now take into account that the dominant religious text in the parts of Thedas we have seen so far is the Chant of Light.  The main hero, religious leader and role model for their religion was a WOMAN.  In their churches, the positions of power are held by women, and the men serve to a lesser degree.  Because the theology behind their religion is so radically different in terms of the position of a woman, there is almost a role reversal from the gender roles we see in real religions.

 So, in Thedas, it is completely reasonable that, because of the attitudes instilled about the position of women by their religion, women would be given equal standing to men in military and other jobs, REGARDLESS of whether or not they are physically equal.  Because it is going against the moral grain of what is pretty much the state religion to consider women inferior.  Just like how, in modern society, new attitudes about the equality of women has lead to a shift in the hiring practices and assignment practices of women for physical labor, law enforcement and military service.  Even if women do tend to be physically not as strong as men, the changes in attitude regarding their role seem to have more to do with what jobs they are perfoming than the base physical comparison.  Imagine the same principle applied to a world where the bias hasn't existed for hundreds or thousands of years.

And sexism, for story purposes does exist in the game, among those who do not follow the Chant of Light.  Sten has a very definite idea of what a woman should do, based on the Qun, and it's not fight. And even within the Chantry-controlled, there are variations by region.  The story of Aveline and comments by Fergus' wife indicates that Orlais has a more restrictive view about the role of women than there is in the Free Marches and Ferelden.


By that note the Chantry is also sexist against men by not allowing them to become leaders within the Chantry, something which is reserved only for women, even if they're completely wrong for the job. Again this is a no spoilers board (afgsfdhgsafdghfsa) so I'll just say a certain chantry woman whom you face regards to the Qunari.

#175
MingWolf

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Bioware does its best to keep the difference from playing different
genders to minimum. Even before DA2, all we had from different genders
were few lines referring to the player's sex. In DA2 it got to somewhat
extreme point, as the romance options were equalized for both genders.

I think this policy limits the mood of realism and harms RPG element.


I respect people of all sexual orientations, but I have to agree that the policy of equality upsets the mood/realism.  I can never quite look at Anders the same way as I did in Awakenings.... *cringe*