55 réponses à ce sujet

[Merced652]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Merced652 wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Merced652 wrote...
So why then are you telling me its the orlesian warden when they said its deliberately ambiguous? :innocent:

What's ambiguous is who's getting referenced in DAII.

What's not ambiguous is who did the events of Awakening. Because your Warden didn't, someone else had to. That someone else is the Orlesian.

The references in DAII are ambiguous because of Awakening's import feature being less-than-artful.

No see you're not getting what i'm saying. 

She roughly says "..and the warden is missing too." She doesn't say the dumb ass bro who killed the mother, or the other ****** bro who killed the archdemon. She isn't making any distinction there, why are you assuming its one and not the other?

Because in your Origins playthrough, they're different people. It can't be both?

I don't really understand your question.

I need a crayon.

Alright so she never says who is missing definitively. It could be HoF, it could be WC. Its ambiguous. You've been telling me, for however many posts now that its WC without telling me why, only offering to me that WC was some orlesian douchebag when leliana never says that particular guy is missing. So why are you doing that? 

[Warrcry13]

GSSAGE7 wrote...

A thought occurs. The Wardens are able to conscript people to join the order, whether they like it or not. Assuming the Warden didn't sacrifice him/herself, maybe the First Warden ordered the Warden to take the job, and shove any objections where the sun don't shine. At the very least, it would make it clear that there could only be one person she'd be referring to.

Warrcry13 wrote...

GSSAGE7 wrote...

Because when Varric finishes his story, Cassandra specifically says that the Warden is gone.

AH I see I probably missed the line because one of the cats decided it was a good idea to climb my leg and arm.

It was around the time Leliana makes her 2nd cameo. Cassandra's exact line was "Gone, just like the Warden," when Leliana asks did she find anything out.

Ah yeah I vaguely remember seeing Leliana. She had two appearances? WHAT DID I MISS?

[GSSAGE7]

Warrcry13 wrote...

GSSAGE7 wrote...

A thought occurs. The Wardens are able to conscript people to join the order, whether they like it or not. Assuming the Warden didn't sacrifice him/herself, maybe the First Warden ordered the Warden to take the job, and shove any objections where the sun don't shine. At the very least, it would make it clear that there could only be one person she'd be referring to.

Warrcry13 wrote...

GSSAGE7 wrote...

Because when Varric finishes his story, Cassandra specifically says that the Warden is gone.

AH I see I probably missed the line because one of the cats decided it was a good idea to climb my leg and arm.

It was around the time Leliana makes her 2nd cameo. Cassandra's exact line was "Gone, just like the Warden," when Leliana asks did she find anything out.

Ah yeah I vaguely remember seeing Leliana. She had two appearances? WHAT DID I MISS?

She shows up in one of Sebastian's quests as well, but that's it.

[Merced652]

TobiTobsen wrote...

Merced652 wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Merced652 wrote...
So why then are you telling me its the orlesian warden when they said its deliberately ambiguous? :innocent:

What's ambiguous is who's getting referenced in DAII.

What's not ambiguous is who did the events of Awakening. Because your Warden didn't, someone else had to. That someone else is the Orlesian.

The references in DAII are ambiguous because of Awakening's import feature being less-than-artful.

No see you're not getting what i'm saying. 

She roughly says "..and the warden is missing too." She doesn't say the dumb ass bro who killed the mother, or the other ****** bro who killed the archdemon. She isn't making any distinction there, why are you assuming its one and not the other?

If you Warden wasn't around to do the stuff in Awakening thats just because of one reason: He is dead. So only the Orlesian is left.

LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

You know i would love for Gaider to come in here and say it. I'd happily leave these forums and this company to rot in rpg hell afterwards as well. So basically if this were true its just another case of "no player agency." 

Awesome. 

[Warrcry13]

GSSAGE7 wrote...

Warrcry13 wrote...

GSSAGE7 wrote...

A thought occurs. The Wardens are able to conscript people to join the order, whether they like it or not. Assuming the Warden didn't sacrifice him/herself, maybe the First Warden ordered the Warden to take the job, and shove any objections where the sun don't shine. At the very least, it would make it clear that there could only be one person she'd be referring to.

Warrcry13 wrote...

GSSAGE7 wrote...

Because when Varric finishes his story, Cassandra specifically says that the Warden is gone.

AH I see I probably missed the line because one of the cats decided it was a good idea to climb my leg and arm.

It was around the time Leliana makes her 2nd cameo. Cassandra's exact line was "Gone, just like the Warden," when Leliana asks did she find anything out.

Ah yeah I vaguely remember seeing Leliana. She had two appearances? WHAT DID I MISS?

She shows up in one of Sebastian's quests as well, but that's it.

Ohhh see I didn't have his DLC on my first playthrough.

[mesmerizedish]

Merced652 wrote...

I need a crayon.

Alright so she never says who is missing definitively. It could be HoF, it could be WC. Its ambiguous. You've been telling me, for however many posts now that its WC without telling me why, only offering to me that WC was some orlesian douchebag when leliana never says that particular guy is missing. So why are you doing that?

Because the references to "the Warden" in DAII are references to whomever it was that did Awakening. That much is definitive. That could be the Hero of Ferelden. It could also be the Orlesian. Which one it is is ambiguous because Awakening was screwy.

[earl of the north]

I've got a similar 'Hero of Fereldan' save, Dalish Elf who did the DR and then went through the portal (witch hunt) with Morrigan, so the Orlesian Commander killed the mother and saved the architect in that universe............ (off topic) anybody else think the new 'allies' that Nathaniel is so cagey about are the architect's darkspawn?

I assumed in that case 'The Warden' people are refering to is the Orlesian since my warden disappeared for ever after witch hunt.

Modifié par earl of the north, 07 avril 2011 - 07:38 .

[Morroian]

Merced652 wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Because in your Origins playthrough, they're different people. It can't be both?

I don't really understand your question.

I need a crayon.

Alright so she never says who is missing definitively. It could be HoF, it could be WC. Its ambiguous. You've been telling me, for however many posts now that its WC without telling me why, only offering to me that WC was some orlesian douchebag when leliana never says that particular guy is missing. So why are you doing that? 

Cause the WH plot flag is not used in DA2 and if your particular warden didn't run through Awakenings well the Orlesian Warden is assumed to have and this is the plot flag that is picked up by DA2 for that dialogue.

I gather the WH plot flag is imported to DA2 just not used but it is available to be used down the track.

[Warrcry13]

Oh awakenings has import flags as well? Wish I had known that I transfers my base origins save, when I could have transferred my awakenings save. I missed out on the whole Nathaniel thing then.

[Aldandil]

Merced652 wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

Merced652 wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Merced652 wrote...
So why then are you telling me its the orlesian warden when they said its deliberately ambiguous? :innocent:

What's ambiguous is who's getting referenced in DAII.

What's not ambiguous is who did the events of Awakening. Because your Warden didn't, someone else had to. That someone else is the Orlesian.

The references in DAII are ambiguous because of Awakening's import feature being less-than-artful.

No see you're not getting what i'm saying. 

She roughly says "..and the warden is missing too." She doesn't say the dumb ass bro who killed the mother, or the other ****** bro who killed the archdemon. She isn't making any distinction there, why are you assuming its one and not the other?

If you Warden wasn't around to do the stuff in Awakening thats just because of one reason: He is dead. So only the Orlesian is left.

LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

You know i would love for Gaider to come in here and say it. I'd happily leave these forums and this company to rot in rpg hell afterwards as well. So basically if this were true its just another case of "no player agency." 

Awesome. 

Are you being THAT GUY now?

In any case, I don't get what is not making sense right now. Leliana is refering to the Warden from DA:A. Was that you? If yes, she's refering to you. If no, she's not. That's not very complicated, is it?

[Merced652]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Merced652 wrote...

I need a crayon.

Alright so she never says who is missing definitively. It could be HoF, it could be WC. Its ambiguous. You've been telling me, for however many posts now that its WC without telling me why, only offering to me that WC was some orlesian douchebag when leliana never says that particular guy is missing. So why are you doing that?

Because the references to "the Warden" in DAII are references to whomever it was that did Awakening. That much is definitive. That could be the Hero of Ferelden. It could also be the Orlesian. Which one it is is ambiguous because Awakening was screwy.

Do you have the exact quote and a link? I'm not doubting that may be the case, however i do want it to be definitive because as i understood it only "warden commander" was a valid reference to Awakening's events whereas "the warden" was completely ambiguous and not just ambiguous in terms of the guy who did awakenings but might have also been HoF. 

Modifié par Merced652, 07 avril 2011 - 07:41 .

[Icy Magebane]

earl of the north wrote...

I've got a similar 'Hero of Fereldan' save, Dalish Elf who did the DR and then went through the portal (witch hunt) with Morrigan, so the Orlesian Commander killed the mother and saved the architect in that universe............ (off topic) anybody else think the new 'allies' that Nathaniel is so cagey about are the architect's darkspawn?

I assumed in that case 'The Warden' people are refering to is the Orlesian since my warden disappeared for ever after witch hunt.

The story doesn't go in that order though... if you imported, the order is Origins-Awakening-Golems-WH.  Is it even possible to play Awakening from a WH file?

And yeah, you're correct about the Architect... too bad I killed him and I still get that dialouge (bugged quest).

[TobiTobsen]

Merced652 wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

Merced652 wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Merced652 wrote...
So why then are you telling me its the orlesian warden when they said its deliberately ambiguous? :innocent:

What's ambiguous is who's getting referenced in DAII.

What's not ambiguous is who did the events of Awakening. Because your Warden didn't, someone else had to. That someone else is the Orlesian.

The references in DAII are ambiguous because of Awakening's import feature being less-than-artful.

No see you're not getting what i'm saying. 

She roughly says "..and the warden is missing too." She doesn't say the dumb ass bro who killed the mother, or the other ****** bro who killed the archdemon. She isn't making any distinction there, why are you assuming its one and not the other?

If you Warden wasn't around to do the stuff in Awakening thats just because of one reason: He is dead. So only the Orlesian is left.

LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

You know i would love for Gaider to come in here and say it. I'd happily leave these forums and this company to rot in rpg hell afterwards as well. So basically if this were true its just another case of "no player agency." 

Awesome. 

I'm not quite sure what your point is?
Either you import a DAO Game into Awakening where you Warden is still alive or not. If he/she is alive than it's him/her who does the stuff in Awakening and it's him/her that's missing at the end of DAII. If he/she is dead because he/she did the US, than the Orlesian took over in Awakening and it's him/her that's missing at the end of DAII

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 07 avril 2011 - 07:41 .

[Merced652]

TobiTobsen wrote...

Merced652 wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

Merced652 wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Merced652 wrote...
So why then are you telling me its the orlesian warden when they said its deliberately ambiguous? :innocent:

What's ambiguous is who's getting referenced in DAII.

What's not ambiguous is who did the events of Awakening. Because your Warden didn't, someone else had to. That someone else is the Orlesian.

The references in DAII are ambiguous because of Awakening's import feature being less-than-artful.

No see you're not getting what i'm saying. 

She roughly says "..and the warden is missing too." She doesn't say the dumb ass bro who killed the mother, or the other ****** bro who killed the archdemon. She isn't making any distinction there, why are you assuming its one and not the other?

If you Warden wasn't around to do the stuff in Awakening thats just because of one reason: He is dead. So only the Orlesian is left.

LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

You know i would love for Gaider to come in here and say it. I'd happily leave these forums and this company to rot in rpg hell afterwards as well. So basically if this were true its just another case of "no player agency." 

Awesome. 

I'm not quite sure what your point is?
Either you import a DAO Game into Awakening where you Warden is still alive or not. If he/she is alive than it's him/her who does the stuff in Awakening and it's him/her that's missing at the end of DAII. If he/she is dead because he/she did the US, than the Orlesian took over in Awakening and it's him/her that's missing at the end of DAII

You're saying its impossible for someone to RP a character that would've done something other than become WC. I'm pretty god damn sure at the end of Origins i could decide to Hunt for morrigan, travel, chill at gwaren, whatever. As such, its my belief that it would be my choice to decide whether or not i wanted to become WC and deal with **** in Awakening. I chose not to given the way i RP'd my character. You're telling me thats only because my character is dead. I never said my character was dead, i never learned of any event that lead to his death, why then is he dead? 

[mesmerizedish]

Merced652 wrote...

Do you have the exact quote and a link? I'm not doubting that may be the case, however i do want it to be definitive because as i understood it only wardne commander was a valid reference to Awakening's events whereas the warden was completely ambiguous and not just ambiguous in terms of the guy who did awakenings but might have also been HoF.

I don't have a link, but hopefully if we leave stinky cheese out, it will attract a writer tomorrow.

But, it's common sense. The Hero of Ferelden was the hero of Origins. The Warden or Warden-Commander is the hero of Awakening. In some cases, they will be the same character. In some cases, they will be different characters.

Awakening was set up in such a way that that distinction (same character vs. different character) is... not there, I guess. So, DAII doesn't know if the Warden was the Hero of Ferelden or not. That's why it's not specified.

Whether or not Cassandra and Leliana are talking about the Hero of Ferelden or the Orlesian depends on how you played Origins and Awakening. But the knowledge of which person it is exists only in your head, not in the game. And that's Awakening's fault.

[earl of the north]

Icy Magebane wrote...

earl of the north wrote...

I've got a similar 'Hero of Fereldan' save, Dalish Elf who did the DR and then went through the portal (witch hunt) with Morrigan, so the Orlesian Commander killed the mother and saved the architect in that universe............ (off topic) anybody else think the new 'allies' that Nathaniel is so cagey about are the architect's darkspawn?

I assumed in that case 'The Warden' people are refering to is the Orlesian since my warden disappeared for ever after witch hunt.

The story doesn't go in that order though... if you imported, the order is Origins-Awakening-Golems-WH.  Is it even possible to play Awakening from a WH file?

And yeah, you're correct about the Architect... too bad I killed him and I still get that dialouge (bugged quest).

My Dalish elf never did the Awakenings story, for him it was Origins-WH....the Orlesian did Awakening-Golems. My Circle mage did the Origins-Awakenings-Golems-WH story and I didn't get the Nathaniel quest due to killing the architect when I imported that one.

[Aldandil]

TobiTobsen wrote...

Merced652 wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

Merced652 wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Merced652 wrote...
So why then are you telling me its the orlesian warden when they said its deliberately ambiguous? :innocent:

What's ambiguous is who's getting referenced in DAII.

What's not ambiguous is who did the events of Awakening. Because your Warden didn't, someone else had to. That someone else is the Orlesian.

The references in DAII are ambiguous because of Awakening's import feature being less-than-artful.

No see you're not getting what i'm saying. 

She roughly says "..and the warden is missing too." She doesn't say the dumb ass bro who killed the mother, or the other ****** bro who killed the archdemon. She isn't making any distinction there, why are you assuming its one and not the other?

If you Warden wasn't around to do the stuff in Awakening thats just because of one reason: He is dead. So only the Orlesian is left.

LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

You know i would love for Gaider to come in here and say it. I'd happily leave these forums and this company to rot in rpg hell afterwards as well. So basically if this were true its just another case of "no player agency." 

Awesome. 

I'm not quite sure what your point is?
Either you import a DAO Game into Awakening where you Warden is still alive or not. If he/she is alive than it's him/her who does the stuff in Awakening and it's him/her that's missing at the end of DAII. If he/she is dead because he/she did the US, than the Orlesian took over in Awakening and it's him/her that's missing at the end of DAII

It's possible that your warden wouldn't be interested in becoming Warden-Commander. If you don't import her/him into DA:A, it should be the same thing as s/he chose not to do that. You should still be able to play WH or Golems even so.

[Merced652]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Merced652 wrote...

Do you have the exact quote and a link? I'm not doubting that may be the case, however i do want it to be definitive because as i understood it only wardne commander was a valid reference to Awakening's events whereas the warden was completely ambiguous and not just ambiguous in terms of the guy who did awakenings but might have also been HoF.

I don't have a link, but hopefully if we leave stinky cheese out, it will attract a writer tomorrow.

But, it's common sense. The Hero of Ferelden was the hero of Origins. The Warden or Warden-Commander is the hero of Awakening. In some cases, they will be the same character. In some cases, they will be different characters.

Awakening was set up in such a way that that distinction (same character vs. different character) is... not there, I guess. So, DAII doesn't know if the Warden was the Hero of Ferelden or not. That's why it's not specified.

Whether or not Cassandra and Leliana are talking about the Hero of Ferelden or the Orlesian depends on how you played Origins and Awakening. But the knowledge of which person it is exists only in your head, not in the game. And that's Awakening's fault.

I wouldn't call it awakenings fault, but i suppose i agree. Its pointless anyway. I'll eat my boot when it matters one way or the other. 

[Icy Magebane]

@Merced652: How you rp has nothing to do with the events of the game... you have to be Warden Commander if you played Awakening. If you never played that, but survived using the DR or some other means... I don't know. Did Awakening even happen, or did an Orlesain do it? I think the Orlesian Warden comes into play if you import only from Origins... but I don't know for sure.

[Merced652]

Icy Magebane wrote...

@Merced652: How you rp has nothing to do with the events of the game... you have to be Warden Commander if you played Awakening. If you never played that, but survived using the DR or some other means... I don't know. Did Awakening even happen, or did an Orlesain do it? I think the Orlesian Warden comes into play if you import only from Origins... but I don't know for sure.

I imported from WH, didn't do DA:A because like i said, my character would've never become the WC. I did so fully expecting that a orlesian warden would be WC and do the events of DA:A. As such i was also fully prepared to accept whatever the default was for those events. The whole debate started over the statement about an ambiguous person that apparently may or may not be who did Awakenings. Until i know that i'm content with not knowing since its my belief it won't matter at all anyway. 

[TobiTobsen]

Merced652 wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

@Merced652: How you rp has nothing to do with the events of the game... you have to be Warden Commander if you played Awakening. If you never played that, but survived using the DR or some other means... I don't know. Did Awakening even happen, or did an Orlesain do it? I think the Orlesian Warden comes into play if you import only from Origins... but I don't know for sure.

I imported from WH, didn't do DA:A because like i said, my character would've never become the WC. I did so fully expecting that a orlesian warden would be WC and do the events of DA:A. As such i was also fully prepared to accept whatever the default was for those events. The whole debate started over the statement about an ambiguous person that apparently may or may not be who did Awakenings. Until i know that i'm content with not knowing since its my belief it won't matter at all anyway. 

Would you do me a favour and look in you codex entry about the Hero of Ferelden? If the game assumes he did the stuff in Awakening, regardeless of the fact that you didn't played Awakenings, than there should be the sentence
"After ending the Blight, the Hero of Ferelden took up the mantle of Warden-Commander and began the task of rebuilding the order in Ferelden."

I'm pretty sure the game takes it as canon that your warden did all the stuff if he was stil alive after the Blight. Would be interesting to know if I'm right.

[Merced652]

TobiTobsen wrote...

Merced652 wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

@Merced652: How you rp has nothing to do with the events of the game... you have to be Warden Commander if you played Awakening. If you never played that, but survived using the DR or some other means... I don't know. Did Awakening even happen, or did an Orlesain do it? I think the Orlesian Warden comes into play if you import only from Origins... but I don't know for sure.

I imported from WH, didn't do DA:A because like i said, my character would've never become the WC. I did so fully expecting that a orlesian warden would be WC and do the events of DA:A. As such i was also fully prepared to accept whatever the default was for those events. The whole debate started over the statement about an ambiguous person that apparently may or may not be who did Awakenings. Until i know that i'm content with not knowing since its my belief it won't matter at all anyway. 

Would you do me a favour and look in you codex entry about the Hero of Ferelden? If the game assumes he did the stuff in Awakening, regardeless of the fact that you didn't played Awakenings, than there should be the sentence
"After ending the Blight, the Hero of Ferelden took up the mantle of Warden-Commander and began the task of rebuilding the order in Ferelden."

I'm pretty sure the game takes it as canon that your warden did all the stuff if he was stil alive after the Blight. Would be interesting to know if I'm right.

Yea it actually does say that. Interesting. I appreciate you mentioning that because this is certainly something i will be attempting to get some kind of answer/clarification on. That seems like a really ****ty though somewhat logical assumption for them to make. However its just other example in a incredibly long list of retcons and hand waves.

edit: To knitpick, they keep trotting out this mantra of "no canon." Why am i shackled to it then? 

Modifié par Merced652, 07 avril 2011 - 08:14 .

[Conduit0]

I swear you're being intentionally dense just to troll, but I'll explain it for you, just in case.

The original response about it referring to the Orlaisian WC, was from you stating that she gives the same line even if you take the US route. Which is exactly why warden is used ambiguously, it was done so the cutscene could cover both possible options. If you're warden aka "The hero of fereldan" is still alive and kicking, she's referring to that warden. However, if the hero is pushing up daisies, than she's referring to the orlaisian WC. One cutscene, all bases covered, not that hard to understand.

[Merced652]

Conduit0 wrote...

I swear you're being intentionally dense just to troll, but I'll explain it for you, just in case.

The original response about it referring to the Orlaisian WC, was from you stating that she gives the same line even if you take the US route. Which is exactly why warden is used ambiguously, it was done so the cutscene could cover both possible options. If you're warden aka "The hero of fereldan" is still alive and kicking, she's referring to that warden. However, if the hero is pushing up daisies, than she's referring to the orlaisian WC. One cutscene, all bases covered, not that hard to understand.

Look jackass. I wasn't aware the game decided to pigeonhole my warden in to the WC because i chose not to play it. Under the assumption that it didn't do that, all bases certainly weren't covered because presumably there would've been the option to sit it out in which case who it was refering to wasn't indicated or even implied because events wouldn't have lent themselves to either or. Happily kiss my ass.

Modifié par Merced652, 07 avril 2011 - 08:20 .

[Torax]

In your story the Hero of Fereldon died. Meanwhile the Land of Amaranthine was given to the Grey Wardens. As a consequence the Warden Commander of that land would also be the Arl of it. Because the Wardens were banned from Fereldon so long ago. This is a new case. Especially because it's also a rare case where the Wardens are also in control of a region more than just say a Fortress given to them. So the First Warden asks the Hero of Fereldon if they would see this through.

Cause your Warden was dead. Or even assuming say Hero of Fereldon would have said "No."? He would have had another Warden take their place. That is the Orlesian Grey Warden they are referring to. This is not rocket science.

edited for maybe another required clarification/reminder.

No matter what you did in Origins, it is always stated that the Arling of Amaranthine once owned by Arl Howe would be given to Grey Wardens. A player has no say in this. It ALWAYS happens. So for DA2 they automatically would treat it as either the Hero handles it or the Orelisian. They are both a Warden afterall and most importantly would both also be referred as Warden Commander and Commander of the Grey as well.

Modifié par Torax, 07 avril 2011 - 08:33 .