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[The Angry One]

Greagoir read the epilogue, decided not to retire and sent Cullen away to change the future.
There.

[LobselVith8]

The Angry One wrote...

Greagoir read the epilogue, decided not to retire and sent Cullen away to change the future.
There.

Doc Brown saves another life thanks to his delorean.

[Bullets McDeath]

Considering that in all his various fates, it was implied that Cullen was a bit... naturally paranoid, let's say, and the events of the Broken Tower quest left him even more so, I find it odd that he's presented as so level-headed and sympathetic towards mages, especially in Kirkwall, where the Blood Mage problem is far worse than Ferelden could even begin to imagine.

Going from a zealot to a moderate, especially considering his past and present circumstances, stood out more than him being alive/not drooling mad.

[The Angry One]

Cullen only became paranoid after what happened in the tower. Before he was a dutiful Templar but sympathetic to mages, and has a crush on the female mage Warden (so much so that demons later use her image to mind screw with him).

[lx_theo]

Who says that can't happen in the future?

[The Angry One]

lx_theo wrote...

Who says that can't happen in the future?

Because mages are revolting!

[Bullets McDeath]

The Angry One wrote...

Cullen only became paranoid after what happened in the tower. Before he was a dutiful Templar but sympathetic to mages, and has a crush on the female mage Warden (so much so that demons later use her image to mind screw with him).

I've never done a female mage in Origins, but as a male when you talk to him after the Harrowing, he goes on a bit of a rant about how he's never seen an abomination before and what if there's no way to really tell and there are already demons loose in the tower and nobody knows it. So it seems the seeds of his paranoia were always there, even before Uldred pulled his little song and dance.

[Cutlass Jack]

outlaworacle wrote...

Considering that in all his various fates, it was implied that Cullen was a bit... naturally paranoid, let's say, and the events of the Broken Tower quest left him even more so, I find it odd that he's presented as so level-headed and sympathetic towards mages, especially in Kirkwall, where the Blood Mage problem is far worse than Ferelden could even begin to imagine.

Going from a zealot to a moderate, especially considering his past and present circumstances, stood out more than him being alive/not drooling mad.

I think it was more telling how over the bend Meredith was that she made Cullen look reasonable by comparison.

But overall he was the one character change I approved of. Certainly one of the few who's looks actually improved.

[Fieryeel]

outlaworacle wrote...

Considering that in all his various fates, it was implied that Cullen was a bit... naturally paranoid, let's say, and the events of the Broken Tower quest left him even more so, I find it odd that he's presented as so level-headed and sympathetic towards mages, especially in Kirkwall, where the Blood Mage problem is far worse than Ferelden could even begin to imagine.

Going from a zealot to a moderate, especially considering his past and present circumstances, stood out more than him being alive/not drooling mad.

Well actually...dialogue with Cullen has him saying that the situation in Fereldan's circle was worst.

Looking at it from his perspective, it's kinda true in a sense.

Kirkwall - Templars able to mount a successful offensive against mages, with or without champion's aid. Right of annulment invoked by Meredith(unlawful, as she's supposed to seek higher-up's permission) based on high possibility of blood mages infiltrating the circle. Orsino, the first enchanter is not a lost cause, as he's still willing to negotiate. In short, the cause of the whole circle crisis is in fact due to Meredith and Anders.

Fereldan - Templars running and fleeing for their lives from the circle. Blood mages, abominations and demons appearing everywhere. Gregoir and surviving templars must isolate the tower completely, letting no one out, not even their own. Irving, the first enchanter has been kidnapped, and it is not known if there are still people alive. The conflict goes on for several days or longer(claimed by Cullen, who says he has been trapped for what seems to be weeks). Gregoir lawfully sends for permission for Rite of Annulment. This is not a case of any overzealous templar asking for a fight, this is the entire circle being taken over by abominations.

In the face of all these, it appears the Warden > Hawke after all. Solving a mage crisis = end-game content to Hawke. Ending an even more severe crisis to Warden = All in a day's work

[Cutlass Jack]

Fieryeel wrote...

In the face of all these, it appears the Warden > Hawke after all. Solving a mage crisis = end-game content to Hawke. Ending an even more severe crisis to Warden = All in a day's work

I wouldn't say that precisely. Hawke fought the end demon of the Cirle mission as Street trash.

[DeathStride]

I was really hoping Gaider might step in to say something about this... Here's to hoping.

[Kaiser Shepard]

DeathStride wrote...

I was really hoping Gaider might step in to say something about this... Here's to hoping.

He has already commented on the epilogues, both recently and a little after DAII was announced.

Just consider the epilogues to be true/canon, unless directly contradicted by later games (and any possible future novels).

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I've learned that the game seems to account for certain epilogues in the game. I saw a line where Anders meets Nathaniel and Nathaniel is confused how Anders is alive and even mentions the epilogue where Anders dies and then Anders explains that he ran away and they just assumed the disfigured mage corpse was him. Does Cullen have any special lines that only appear in the games about that ending?

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 09 avril 2011 - 07:14 .

[DeathStride]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I've learned that the game seems to account for certain epilogues in the game. I saw a line where Anders meets Nathaniel and Nathaniel is confused how Anders is alive and even mentions the epilogue where Anders dies and then Anders explains that he ran away and they just assumed the disfigured mage corpse was him. Does Cullen have any special lines that only appear in the games about that ending?

Not AFAIK. But maybe someone else caught one.

[Oneiropolos]

Basically, I think we really have to consider the size of DA:O and that it was very possible that it was intended as a standalone game with a couple DLCs, maybe accounting for the concept of Awakening to get work started on it. But even with Bioware's success in franchises, they couldn't know for a fact that it would do well enough that a sequel and even more would be greenlit. The epilogues gave a satisfaction to the original game. They let us feel like, "Oh, hey, and now we know what happens in the near future too and the far reaching consequences of our decisions." Which personally, I really liked. I actually really wish we had a "Rumor has it" at the end of DAII, with the purpose stated that this might not have been what REALLY happened, but that rumor has Isabela doing this, and Aveline doing that, and Varric's been up to whatever in the last three years. I would have found it interesting if we saw like seeker 'theories' and we ALL know the Seekers aren't really sure what is going on. But they at least had the gist of it. I'd have loved more information. But people are taking things like the epilogues just being 'rumors' now so seriously, I'm concerned we might never get a "And this is what happened" again to wrap things up.

[IanPolaris]

outlaworacle wrote...

Considering that in all his various fates, it was implied that Cullen was a bit... naturally paranoid, let's say, and the events of the Broken Tower quest left him even more so, I find it odd that he's presented as so level-headed and sympathetic towards mages, especially in Kirkwall, where the Blood Mage problem is far worse than Ferelden could even begin to imagine.

Going from a zealot to a moderate, especially considering his past and present circumstances, stood out more than him being alive/not drooling mad.

This is still the same Cullen that openly states that mages are weapons and not people and can not be treated like people.  He also says that Ser Alrik's plan had merit but was rejected because the mages wouldn't go for it but there was merit in expanding the use of tranquility.

Yeah, that's a real moderate mage friend there.  Yeah......

The only reason Cullen seems so 'moderate' is because Meridith is such a complete fruit-loop even before she gets the idol.

-Polaris

[DeathStride]

IanPolaris wrote...

The only reason Cullen seems so 'moderate' is because Meridith is such a complete fruit-loop even before she gets the idol.

*chuckles* "fruit-loop" that's such an innocent name for the flavor of batsh*t-crazy that Meredith becomes^_^. Still like it though, it's like stages of Pokemon evolution(sorry! it's too fun to use this analogy)- Meredith as a little girl:  Fruit-loop Meredith, Meredith the fiery Knight Commander: Zealot Meredith, Meredith the lyrium-addled crazy person: ?

[sylvanaerie]

Having Tranquility forced on you is bad but that was the work of one man, not the Templars (that was all in Anders head apparently since both Elthina AND Meredith shot that one down). Though Cullen has his own opinion about it, I still see this as an improvement over "We must kill them ALL every last one".
If you side Templars, you encounter a group of non combative mages who just want to live. Hawke can choose to spare them and Cullen will side with Hawke, countermanding Meredith's orders.
If this was the same Cullen as the end of the Broken Circle, he wouldn't have hesitated to shove a blade of mercy into their hearts.
And regardless of what people you have in your group at the end, it is ALWAYS Cullen who defies Meredith and stands with Hawke against her.
This is what makes him so interesting as a character to me. He has his flaws but he also has shown a TON of growth in the game.
Even Cullen says that while there may be 'merit' to Alrik's plan, he also points out it's illegal to Tranquil a Harrowed mage, something I don't think he would really consider doing.
I think Cullen is middle ground, not mage sympathetic or really kill em all templar gungho. He's just trying to maintain order, protect the innocent (and I mean the people like Hawke's mom who get caught up in Magely stuff, not mages), and is moving/growing/changing to a stance closer to Gregoir (I think). While Gregoir may not be a nice guy, he's certainly not the fruit loop (LOL I love that description too) that Meredith is. Maybe Cullen is still a work in progress, I'm hoping he is back for DLC or DA3 because I'm interested in where he will go from here.
Also, some mages ask to be tranquiled (Owain) and do not see themselves as less than human just because they lack emotions.

[DeathStride]

@sylvanaerie: agreed, Cullen definitely seems to have grown and I do like his DA2 version, I just wish BW had integrated his DAO storyline with the DA2 one, it really doesn't have to be either-or situation; even after becoming KCom of the Fereldan Circle there's so many reasons he could still have left for Ferelden such as:

-found to be overzealous by Fereldan Grand Cleric, relieved of title, and reapropriated to Kirkwall after First Enchanter what's-his-name wrote to her about Cullen's almost fanatic nature and rule of fear

That's just one I came up with off the top of my head, I know Gaider and his team could have come up with better if they'd chosen to.

Modifié par DeathStride, 09 avril 2011 - 08:25 .

[sylvanaerie]

DeathStride wrote...

@sylvanaerie: agreed, Cullen definitely seems to have grown and I do like his DA2 version, I just wish BW had integrated his DAO storyline with the DA2 one, it really doesn't have to be either-or situation; even after becoming KCom of the Fereldan Circle there's so many reasons he could still have left for Ferelden such as:

-found to be overzealous by Fereldan Grand Cleric, relieved of title, and reapropriated to Kirkwall after First Enchanter what's-his-name wrote to her about Cullen's almost fanatic nature and rule of fear

That's just one I came up with off the top of my head, I know Gaider and his team could have come up with better if they'd chosen to.

Well I always assumed the whole "Becomes Knight Commander" was years from the events of the Blight.  Gregoir wasn't about to drop dead any time soon.  I always assumed the epilogue slides as 'suggestions' of what happens after the Blight if you never picked up that particular hero's tale anymore. 
For me, for my Canon, the story ended at Post Coronation.  The only one I continued beyond that was my Queen Cousland.
I'm just happy Cullen was here because DA2 Cullen is a fascinating character (yes, he is my favorite non companion NPC in the game).

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 09 avril 2011 - 08:30 .

[Bullets McDeath]

IanPolaris wrote...

outlaworacle wrote...

Considering that in all his various fates, it was implied that Cullen was a bit... naturally paranoid, let's say, and the events of the Broken Tower quest left him even more so, I find it odd that he's presented as so level-headed and sympathetic towards mages, especially in Kirkwall, where the Blood Mage problem is far worse than Ferelden could even begin to imagine.

Going from a zealot to a moderate, especially considering his past and present circumstances, stood out more than him being alive/not drooling mad.

This is still the same Cullen that openly states that mages are weapons and not people and can not be treated like people.  He also says that Ser Alrik's plan had merit but was rejected because the mages wouldn't go for it but there was merit in expanding the use of tranquility.

Yeah, that's a real moderate mage friend there.  Yeah......

The only reason Cullen seems so 'moderate' is because Meridith is such a complete fruit-loop even before she gets the idol.

-Polaris

Relativity is a saucy female dog, I agree.

Modifié par outlaworacle, 10 avril 2011 - 12:54 .

[Joush]

It isn't just the epilogues. Everything that happened in Dragon Age Origins is rumor and heresy. People that you decapitated in the last game come back.

I'm amazed they don't take this to the logical conclusion and just have the story reset to cannon after every chapter of the game, with the second chapter starting you with a male warrior Hawke with the default appearance that chose all upper right conversation options.

[SmokePants]

There is no time frame for the epilogues. What is stopping Cullen from returning to Ferelden and taking over as Knight-Commander? Did he get killed in the last battle? I'm a little fuzzy.

Also, don't care. This type of thing is to be expected. Raising a stink is only going to persuade BioWare to take out epilogues and take away your ability to dispatch any NPC of note. They already did the first thing and you really couldn't touch a lot of NPC's in DA2. If you want those things back, then learn to let things go.

[Rifneno]

IanPolaris wrote...

The only reason Cullen seems so 'moderate' is because Meridith is such a complete fruit-loop even before she gets the idol.

-Polaris

Also because he's not a douche to Hawke specifically.  He's all flowers and sunshine to the main character, but the best his advocates come up with for "how he is not the same old Cullen towards other mages?" is that he doesn't execute people trying to surrender.  Gee, what a sweetheart.

[sphinxess]

Rifneno wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The only reason Cullen seems so 'moderate' is because Meridith is such a complete fruit-loop even before she gets the idol.

-Polaris

Also because he's not a douche to Hawke specifically.  He's all flowers and sunshine to the main character, but the best his advocates come up with for "how he is not the same old Cullen towards other mages?" is that he doesn't execute people trying to surrender.  Gee, what a sweetheart.

DG states that any mages that survive the Right of Annulment would probably be made Tranquel - so that fits his beliefs