130 réponses à ce sujet

[Ksandor]

Dear Mr. Gaider,

You say that seeing some fans feeling resentful to you, the team and the company is very disconcerting. Well that is a start. Maybe that will make you think on what went wrong. I am resentful to you because of your attitude and I find your approach to this matter very discomforting.

Let me explain: You call fair criticism “sacred cow” and you say that you don’t mind killing it because for you it is not
sacred. That could be just fast talk but unfortunately there is more to it.

1) You can’t call fair criticism sacred cow. That means you belittle the ideas of game owners. We are paying customers and I find that a bit offensive. And I don’t think that alienating paying customers is a particularly good idea.


2) I am not a follower of Hinduism, I am Muslim and I don’t find this sacred cow idea offensive. But that is a very American thing to do > cultural relativism. Mocking people’s cultural values, detracting their value and exploiting them in cheap Hollywood movies… I could say more but I don’t want polemics and I don’t want to brand Americans in general, I just criticize people who have a similar approach. I am also sure that you did not mean it that way but we cannot say everything we want in everywhere we want. This is a public board and you may have Hindu customers. We should be careful about that.

3) By calling such criticism sacred cow you also imply that we game owners are fanatics, that we cannot understand that this is just a game and we make small issues big.

First of all this is not a good attitude of using fan feedback. Second we paid money for this game and we have right to voice our dislike. And third making Leliana live or die is not a small issue. We are talking about a dead or alive companion here. This is an important variable that should have been carried over to DA II. Please look at Mass Efffect 2 and how they dealt with the death of Wrex and the Virmire Survivor. Of course not all variables should carry over to DA II. But this is important. I mean you tried to imitate Mass Effect 2 so hard. I wish you imitated this. 

Of course you are the “powers that be” and you decide what to include in the game. But consider, people bought Dragon Age Origins and Awakening, some also purchased DLCs. They invested time and money in these games. They have right to ask such important variables, like Leliana dead or alive be included in the game. I don’t think that you have right to crop the game and shorten the scenario JUST in the way you want. And I think by doing so you have cheated paying customers. You should indeed respect customers. I know that you did not have enough time to make a decent game but then please don’t do it. Nobody is forcing you to develop “castrated” games. You can always make simple shooters in order not to worry about variables. Or step aside and let games like Witcher 2 show you how it is done --at least in some areas. Of course Witcher 2 won’t be perfect but it seems it will better than DA II (That’s just my opinion though, no need to spread it around J ).

So to summarize when I criticize you I am not being a nerd who needs to get a life. I do not spend sleepless nights to silently cry over on how Bioware screwed us (do you remember Karzak? I am not him). I have a real life. In real life I am professional corporate communications consultant and a copywriter and I am to marry soon. But I like CRPGs. I like to talk about them. So please don’t call our criticism sacred cow. You don’t have the right. And I know it is just a game, but I am a customer. I am not satisfied with your product and I will voice my opinion.

Unfortunately we are living in a business world. For instance Microsoft says that even if they know their software is
faulty they are not responsible to compensate customers for data and business loss due to PC system crashes. This is like Ford saying that they won’t be responsible of death and injury even if they know their car axles have design flaws (this is a hypothetical statement and I am not implying that Ford makes faulty axles). But in any decent country courts would not accept such a disclaimer and people would sue the company responsible for the fault.

I think you developers have too much free reign in software business. There should be legalities to bind you. If I had legal rights and enough time and money I would sue EA and Bioware for cheating game owners by selling such a low quality product, believe me. But proving that would be very difficult. Some people would say I like the game. Some would say I don’t like it and many would say that I like the game but I don’t like some details. This is why you can talk us in this manner. Nobody stops you legally from doing it. The industry should mature a lot if we are ever to come to that.

There is another point I want to make: You say that you will move on. Sorry but I don’t buy it. I mean you don’t say you will do better next time. You say you will move on. This means that you do not care about the feedback. At best you would only count positive feedback and there is a high probability that you will make a worse game next time. So you move on and good riddance if you will do the same mistake again. As a paying customer I can only say this: I won’t buy such a game next time and I will inform my social circle that I don’t like your product. But this is business world. There is competition. You continue to fail us and some other company will eventually come and they will do better to compete with you and you will lose profit. I hope this message reaches to your superiors. They will lose profit. If you want to risk it, then by all means risk it. People are entitled to their mistakes even if they keep doing it.

Dragon Age II has many discontinuity errors. Yes the exact chronology was never explicitly stated but if you did not state this it is your fault not us. You cannot use the lack of chronology as an excuse. YOU did a lousy job not us. Look at Mass Effect, read Mass Effect chronology, read Cerberus Network News, check the Baldur’s Gate journal entries, see how it is done. You just re-imagined Dragon Age franchise out of blue in a very bad manner and you did not use the detailed historical and geographical background created for the original game (bits and pieces yes, the inclusion of junk loot yes but that is all). You did not only fail us at that, you also failed yourselves.

This is also a very American thing to do. Re-imagine TV series from scratch, let’s throw old fans in the trash bin (like Star Trek 2009, yeah make the mainstream Alias maker the new Star Trek producer, like he can understand true science fiction, like that money grabber would care bah!), re-imagine comics at every 30 years like Marvel did at 90s by “putting the character back to his/her place (!)”. You just whitewash what you want and re-imagine it, no sense of cultural identity or respect to the corporate history. Sorry but not every re-imagined series will be successful like Battlestar Galactica.

Let me put it this way: If it is not broken don’t fix it. You did not need to reinvent everything in Dragon Age. You should not have tried to imitate Mass Effect in your limited time. Mass Effect 2 is an action RPG. You are supposed to make a real RPG. In this you failed miserably. There is a saying in Turkish: “Imitations will only remind people the originals”. If I wanted to fight enemies spawned out of nowhere and always behind my mages to kill them instantly I would play a decent shooter not Dragon Age II. Really,what were you thinking people?

You say that people are not willing to learn from it. Mr. Gaider, first of all let me say that I find that remark pretty
arrogant. You are not in a position to judge people in such a way. For instance you don’t know me to say something like that. Besides we people DO learn. Did you know that I have 15 years of professional experience as a writer, translator, consultant and editor; that I am a philosophy graduate and I speak English and Italian fluently? I would say more but I don’t feel the need of proving myself to you nor to share the particulars of my life here. Of course these don’t make me superior to other people. I don’t even dare to say that these make me a true intellectual. I am just a man who is knowledgeable (!) enough to see that he has a great many things to learn; that he saw nothing yet. I just say that you cannot tell us that “we do not learn”.

You know what is the saddest part of what you said? The saddest part is that I learned a lot from you Mr. Gaider.

In addition to the other experience sources like books I read and jobs I’ve done, I learned a lot about writing techniques from you and your friends while I was playing Baldur’s Gate series. Reading Baldur’s Gate dialogue also improved my English and pronunciation.

I met Mr. Karpyshyn at the old BG boards. He had just written the novelization of the Throne of Bhaal. I had told him that he made Imoen lesbian just because he knew that teenage boys find lesbian and bisexual girls sexy. It was a marketing choice. He did not do it for the sake of lesbians. He made that only to sell more books. I told him so and in all his honesty he told me that if I don’t like his books I can write my version of Throne of Bhaal.

You know what? I did it. I adapted Baldur’s Gate series, I novelized them in Turkish. I did this mostly during the period of my obligatory military service. It helped me to pass time. I cannot publish my work of course, because of copyright issues. I wish I had time to finalize and translate my books into English to send you and Mr. Karpyshyn. I believe that I did much better than him but I am sure that both of you would provide positive and negative feedback. Hearing from professionals would be good.

That said we both know that there are many amateur modders in internet that could write better games than DA II. But in business world you need credentials to be included in the Bioware team and deadlines; tight schedule, rushed production and marketing concerns would probably force those modders to make subpar games too.

See Mr. Gaider? We learn a lot from you. We are still learning. For instance this time I learned that marketing concerns can make developers deliver low quality games.

I agree that internet can be extreme. And there are fanatics who truly need to get a life are all over the net. But not every fan is a stupid fanatic who he cannot learn. And although teenagers do frequent these forums there is nothing wrong about it too. I was once 13 years old inexperienced boy J. People have right to voice their opinions. Maybe this time you will understand that you are not only making games but as intellectuals you also help people to open their minds for a better future. Please take your role more seriously. There is another saying Turkish: “Let your work speak for yourself not you.”

And please do not be so disconcerted Mr. Gaider. I do not hate you J. I don’t hate people just because they are doing a lousy job and I cannot hate the writer of Throne of Bhall mod Ascension. Unless they are doctors who let people die on operating table anyway… Instead please feel encouraged, people are taking your games seriously. They may rant, they may write harsh criticisms and they may say that they like Dragon Age II a lot. But in the end they take you seriously to reply here.

Regards,
Ksandor

 

 

 

Modifié par Ksandor, 07 avril 2011 - 09:13 .

[AlexXIV]

Is writing 'open letters' a new trend now? Do I also have to write one?

[Merced652]

AlexXIV wrote...

Is writing 'open letters' a new trend now? Do I also have to write one?

You could try, but then people like you would go in there and make retarded posts without even reading the first 3 points he offered. :innocent:

[Icy Magebane]

The OP lost me when he started bashing Americans... even though some of it does make sense. I guess I'd be out of line for pointing out that it's not okay for Americans to generalize, but it is okay for everybody else to say what they want about us. Whoops, I said it anyway.

[Merced652]

Icy Magebane wrote...

The OP lost me when he started bashing Americans... even though some of it does make sense. I guess I'd be out of line for pointing out that it's not okay for Americans to generalize, but it is okay for everybody else to say what they want about us. Whoops, I said it anyway.

The very next line he commented about how he was digressing and didn't want to generalize. It actually tied in fairly well with how Gaider generalizes fan criticism. <_<

[Icy Magebane]

Well he did say something else about Americans a couple paragraphs later... whatever... It's annoying that people talk trash about my country all the time and I just have to listen. That's all.

And like I said, he made a few decent points, aside from that part. But I'm not DG so I doubt he cares if I agree or not.... lol.

[AlexXIV]

Merced652 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Is writing 'open letters' a new trend now? Do I also have to write one?

You could try, but then people like you would go in there and make retarded posts without even reading the first 3 points he offered. :innocent:

I am sorry but I don't really think open letters should be a means to tell developers how to behave. You assume I didn't read it? You are wrong. Obviously I am doing the OP more justice than you me because I am not assuming things that are not there. David is David. Love him or leave him.

[Hubrah]

TLDR - seriously enough with the 'open letters'.

- Enough with the insults to DA:2, yes there are problems - all games have them. The only true way to make sure the next game is better is to have civilized discussion and not 'open letters' insulting the team behind the game.

- I have seen a few of David Gaiders posts on the forums, Ive never seen him attack or try to purposely insult any group or individuals. He is a man, a writer and trying to defend the work of his and the others behind DA:2.

Some people are just so sensitive.

[Hubrah]

No one insults America!

Dread Wolf take you and your petty open letter!
- btw isnt BioWare Canadian? - arguement invalid, if so.

Modifié par Hubrah, 07 avril 2011 - 09:02 .

[Sordel]

Seems like entitled whining to me. Concessions to the original DA:O plots or game saves are virtually easter eggs in DAII and I don't feel that we have any right to demand that the devs take account of every possibility.

[JerHopp]

I thought mr. Gaider was a Canadian?

[Torax]

Should also point out that small out of context responses from posts is not the way to condemn them. For example when he said the "move on" part he meant moving on into the next writing stage. Which is what they would have to do anyway. Not liking what led him to typing that comment doesn't change anything. Also should note that keep in mind when he has a thread that is basically players complaining about Leliana being alive just to complain.

What can he change about them being mad of something he cannot change for them. It's not like he can create a time machine from pen and paper and alter reality. You should be more glad at a few things.

1. He stated that he reads the comments the players made.
2. He stated that he reads the comments the players made.
3. He stated that he reads the comments the players made.
4. He stated that he reads the comments the players made.
5. He stated he is moving forward.
6. The writing team comments at all in the first place.
7. Gaider is not the only writer on the team. Don't blame him for every last thing you hate.

Ranting just because you can doesn't make every last point valid. Trying to turn a "sacred cow" comment into one over grown jab at him alone shows that you are taking it all far too seriously. Don't be fanatical in your letter to him. It wouldn't exactly help your cause. If you even have one beyond crying about things that basically have nothing to do with the game besides Leliana being alive. Which puts you in a specific and pointless camp.

[Darth Krytie]

1. You do realise that Bioware is Canadian? And that EA also has studios in Canada? More than one?

As for the rights of a consumer? Um. Hate to break it to you. Bioware doesn't really owe us a custom-made game, tailored to each individual. They made a game. You didn't like it. Too bad. So sad. I loved it. Spending money on a game doesn't guarantee anything. Purchasing said game doesn't give you rights beyond the ability to play the thing on your console of choice. You have the game. It's complete. You might not like it, you might hate it, but you have it. Ergo, the payer/payee transaction is complete. You have a right to the disc working. Otherwise, you can exchange for one that functions properly. But, nowhere on a game does it guarantee that it'll be bug free or just what you wanted or anything.

As for this open letter to Gaider, you do realise he is not the sole hand in this franchise? He is not even the sole writer? He works within a group and they need to cooperate with other groups that do other functions. He is not an island.

As for the rest, I see you taking a lot of his comments out of context and either are willfully or unintentionally misinterpreting them.

Modifié par Darth Krytie, 07 avril 2011 - 09:39 .

[Ksandor]

Torax wrote...

Should also point out that small out of context responses from posts is not the way to condemn them. For example when he said the "move on" part he meant moving on into the next writing stage. Which is what they would have to do anyway. Not liking what led him to typing that comment doesn't change anything. Also should note that keep in mind when he has a thread that is basically players complaining about Leliana being alive just to complain.

What can he change about them being mad of something he cannot change for them. It's not like he can create a time machine from pen and paper and alter reality. You should be more glad at a few things.

1. He stated that he reads the comments the players made.
2. He stated that he reads the comments the players made.
3. He stated that he reads the comments the players made.
4. He stated that he reads the comments the players made.
5. He stated he is moving forward.
6. The writing team comments at all in the first place.
7. Gaider is not the only writer on the team. Don't blame him for every last thing you hate.

Ranting just because you can doesn't make every last point valid. Trying to turn a "sacred cow" comment into one over grown jab at him alone shows that you are taking it all far too seriously. Don't be fanatical in your letter to him. It wouldn't exactly help your cause. If you even have one beyond crying about things that basically have nothing to do with the game besides Leliana being alive. Which puts you in a specific and pointless camp.

My points should be judged by the objective value they have. Did I say my point is valid just because I said it? How arrogant should I be to have such an ambition? I only defend my point. You may find it valid or invalid. I posted a public letter. Some people will like it, some won't. Some will think me a fool and some won't. I cannot answer every comment posted here. I am also not fanatical. Harsh and strong but not fanatical. You may disagree with I said but I made fairly objective comments. In fact this is why you are able to make such comments in the first place, otherwise it would just be flame wars and insults. My point is clear, objective and simple. And I don't take sacred cow issue seriosly. I already said that in my post yes? That is beyond me. Obviously Mr. Gaider does not take it seriously too. But some may. I just said be careful. You think that is a fat blown jab? You are entitled to your opinion. However in business life you learn that what you say is important yes, but the way people percieve what you said is even more important. We should be careful about that. See? I said that I won't generalize my comments for nations but some still think I insult America. Maybe it can't be avoided. And finally I said many relevant things besides Leliana, I also analyzed Bioware's attitude on why they did what they did with DA II. If you think my argument is pointless or just entitled whining I respect your opinion even if you don't respect mine. Honestly I do not expect everybody agree with what I said. I VOICED my opinion however whether you like my style or not.

And if nobody will take this seriously who will then? We shall continue to have mediocre games. It is just a game you say? Well my friend people are making money out of it, by the shipload, the money you and I pay. EA is a multi billion dolar franchise. What are you talking about? As for Mr. Gaider this game is his business life. Oh before I forget, I did not say that every decision belongs to him but obviously you were not in the army. He is the LEAD WRITER. The official responsibilty is technically his. His superiors will ask him first not his staff. And HE stated his opinions. If somebody else posted here I would reply him instead. It is that simple.

Modifié par Ksandor, 07 avril 2011 - 09:48 .

[Oneiropolos]

 It's honestly a completely unfair letter. In one thread that I could locate because I started it to discuss what the writers did right, 

David Gaider wrote:
From my perspective, I think there's a lot to work on and improve, and certainly we've gotten a lot of criticism from some corners-- much of it deserved, some of it not. We're perfectly capable of criticizing our own work as well (there's not a game I've put out that I'm not painfully aware of the flaws in prior to it shipping), but it's nice to also see that there were parts that some people really enjoyed as well. That is also good to learn from.

http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/304/index/6863890/3#6896204

Later someone asks him what he feels would be fair criticism, this is how he responds

David Gaider wrote:
To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure that's a conversation I'm willing to have just yet. We're still in the process of our own post-mortem examinations of what went right and what went wrong, but there are some people that simply wouldn't want to hear that we think anything went right and would interpret even the suggestion of such as us completely ignoring what went wrong.

Which is fair enough. If I were to point at any of the "unfair" criticism it would probably that which paints DA2 only in terms of what someone wanted it to be rather than what we intended to be, which is also fair-- but there's also a lot of emotion involved, and thus insofar as criticism goes I'll simply say that we're reading it and aware of it but it might be a while before we start discussing it.

http://social.biowar...63890/3#6896509

How are either of these David Gaider dismissing fan complaints entirely? He DOES have an issue with people declaring plot holes when the truth is they were making assumptions or they're really calling it a plot hole but what they mean is "It didn't happen the way I wanted it to".  And yes. He is Canadian. As an American, and one who has a sister who is a screenwriter in Hollywood no less, I could waste time being offended by your consistent generalization of Americans AND of the concept of how Americans tell stories in movies and in TV shows. Sorry, but, what? Give me a country who supposedly never retcons their stories and is always consistent. Even the extremely iconic Doctor Who in England is notorious for being *cough*Forget that happened in the previous series*cough*. Except, you know, I'm not actually sitting here being offended. More amused than anything. 

It's also good you realize that you can't prove Dragon Age II is a 'bad game' because even though I was disappointed with some aspects of it, I've played through it four times and still grinning when I manage to poke it in a new way and discover new situations and comments. Is it as good as Origins? Well, it's shorter. So I've poked it ALOT more and even did playthroughs I wouldn't have spent the time doing in DA:O. But I loved the choices in DA:O and I really hope they gravitate back towards letting us talk to companions more again. Yet, that would involve writing more. Which means I must sincerely like the writing the writers have already done for DAII or I wouldn't be wanting more of it. Even people complaining about perceived retcons and chronologies are doing so because they analyzed the codex entries. They are doing so on the basis that they RELIED ON THE WRITING.


Yes, I WILL Give you the point about the timeline being wonky. It is. I've tried to twist it all around and there's just no way to end up with Anders having been in Awakening AND there just a year after you arrived in Kirkwall. The warden he references meeting wouldn't have even met him yet even with the most liberal dates! That's a part where someone on the team should have gone "...wait.... this doesn't add up." But unless they start making time REALLY crucial for us, and judging by the way they consistently skipped three years ahead without being phased in DAII, I don't think they're going to, I think we can forgive them a timeline that is a bit off. 

Honestly, Gaider has been on the forums quite a bit and even when people vehemently disagree with him, he's given facts that aren't addressed in the condex entries or in game conversations. He's even answered questions without trying to spoil the plot of the next game. He knows his world and he knows the things his characters were involved in intimately. Is he flippant sometimes? Yes. I've seen him be so when he's annoyed at people's stubborness... plust he man wrote Zevran, Fenris, Morrigan, Awakening!Anders, and SHALE. I don't see how he could keep from being snarky on occasion with that group inside of his head and that's not even all of them. He could do what other companies do. Not talk to the fans or offer any explanation except through moderators who stoically acknowledge "Yes, that quest is broken. No. That one isn't." Instead, his repayment for actually being on the forums lately have been people pointing their malcontent directly at him. 

He's not perfect, but I've SEEN know it all devs on forums and the way they write. David Gaider is honestly not one of them. And telling them to learn from Witcher 2? I'm still trying to trudge thorugh the first game and feel COMPLETELY isolated as a female because the main character is all about male self-fullfment and annoyed at the horrid voice acting and stilted dialogue. I get that it's a foreign title and an indie company and they did alot for being both. I respect that. They released something much higher than most expectations thought they could. But please don't tell them theyhave something to learn from the Witcher. They're completely different style of games and I'm grateful for it! 

[Ksandor]

Darth Krytie wrote...

1. You do realise that Bioware is Canadian? And that EA also has studios in Canada? More than one?

As for the rights of a consumer? Um. Hate to break it to you. Bioware doesn't really owe us a custom-made game, tailored to each individual. They made a game. You didn't like it. Too bad. So sad. I loved it. Spending money on a game doesn't guarantee anything. Purchasing said game doesn't give you rights beyond the ability to play the thing on your console of choice. You have the game. It's complete. You might not like it, you might hate it, but you have it. Ergo, the payer/payee transaction is complete. You have a right to the disc working. Otherwise, you can exchange for one that functions properly. But, nowhere on a game does it guarantee that it'll be bug free or just what you wanted or anything.

As for this open letter to Gaider, you do realise he is not the sole hand in this franchise? He is not even the sole writer? He works within a group and they need to cooperate with other groups that do other functions. He is not an island.

As for the rest, I see you taking a lot of his comments out of context and either are willfully or unintentionally misinterpreting them.

I never said that I have right to have a game in the way exactly I want. I just said that this is a low quality game. That is MY opinion. The 2 points are very different. Confusing one for the other is just fast talking. This is demagogy. You are criticizing something I did not do. And Mr. Gaider is the Lead Writer. This is business not a democracy. He is the lead and he has the ultimate responsibilty of his team and he is well compensated for it. If you think I make his words blown out of context that is YOUR opinion. Imlying an agenda however is just stupid and I won't comment on it further. But I am an honest person. If you say that this is just a game, you did not like it, very well, forget about it and get on with your life, you are right. I will do that. This is my last post on this issue. Thank you.

[Darth Krytie]

Ksandor wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...

1. You do realise that Bioware is Canadian? And that EA also has studios in Canada? More than one?

As for the rights of a consumer? Um. Hate to break it to you. Bioware doesn't really owe us a custom-made game, tailored to each individual. They made a game. You didn't like it. Too bad. So sad. I loved it. Spending money on a game doesn't guarantee anything. Purchasing said game doesn't give you rights beyond the ability to play the thing on your console of choice. You have the game. It's complete. You might not like it, you might hate it, but you have it. Ergo, the payer/payee transaction is complete. You have a right to the disc working. Otherwise, you can exchange for one that functions properly. But, nowhere on a game does it guarantee that it'll be bug free or just what you wanted or anything.

As for this open letter to Gaider, you do realise he is not the sole hand in this franchise? He is not even the sole writer? He works within a group and they need to cooperate with other groups that do other functions. He is not an island.

As for the rest, I see you taking a lot of his comments out of context and either are willfully or unintentionally misinterpreting them.

I never said that I have right to have a game in the way exactly I want. I just said that this is a low quality game. That is MY opinion. The 2 points are very different. Confusing one for the other is just fast talking. This is demagogy. You are criticizing something I did not do. And Mr. Gaider is the Lead Writer. This is business not a democracy. He is the lead and he has the ultimate responsibilty of his team and he is well compensated for it. If you think I make his words blown out of context that is YOUR opinion. Imlying an agenda however is just stupid and I won't comment on it further. But I am an honest person. If you say that this is just a game, you did not like it, very well, forget about it and get on with your life, you are right. I will do that. This is my last post on this issue. Thank you.

I guess I totally misintepreted this as you thinking you should have more rights to the content of a game than you do: 

There should be legalities to bind you. If I had legal rights and enough
time and money I would sue EA and Bioware for cheating game owners by
selling such a low quality product, believe me.

[Ksandor]

And yes. He is Canadian. As an American, and one who has a sister who is a screenwriter in Hollywood no less, I could waste time being offended by your consistent generalization of Americans AND of the concept of how Americans tell stories in movies and in TV shows. Sorry, but, what? Give me a country who supposedly never retcons their stories and is always consistent. Even the extremely iconic Doctor Who in England is notorious for being *cough*Forget that happened in the previous series*cough*. Except, you know, I'm not actually sitting here being offended. More amused than anything. 

Did I say Mr. Gaider is American? I said his aproach is the typical American attitude. And if you think Canada and States are culturally or politically isolated to make Mr. Gaider totally immune to such attidue or that Bioware, an EA subsidiary does not have assets in States well... As for other countries doing the same... From who do you think they learned it? Besides I am not consistently generalizing, I am consitintely say that I don't generalize but if you accept that you won't have the possibilty to make such silly remarks to belittle my point. A good demagogy tactic when you do not feel strong enough to disprove my point, here comes the rhetoric. Besides whether Americans or Turks (my countrymen) do it or not re-imagining series is often crap (that is MY opinion) and Hollywood products are mostly superfical and shallow (again my opinion but believe it or not that is shared by many). I won't turn this post in Holyywood criticisim. I just don't want Bioware become as shallow as Hollywood. So you have a sister in Hollywood and I say Hollywood is shallow and reeks politically correct propaganda... This offends you or her how or if offends why should I care? Enough sarcasm, no more replies. Because obviously you understand the things I said in the way you want to have a superior position. Feel free to think that you scared me out of this forums or proved that I was wrong however.  

Modifié par Ksandor, 07 avril 2011 - 10:15 .

[Aldandil]

Some thoughts on your post:

The metaphor "Sacred Cow" is used in English to denote to ideas and practices that are considered to be such a fundamental part of a greater whole, that they cannot be removed. The expression is pretty much only used when these ideas and practices are only necessary because of public opinion and habit. When used informally, I don't think you should take it as an insult to hinduism, since clearly, none is intended. I also think we all should encourage that developers interact informally with the people on the forums, and the best way of doing that is to not jump at them when they are using informal English. Basically, they should follow the forum rules like the rest of us. The expression "sacred cow", is definitely in line with them.

I also think that the term "sacred cow" is kind of appropriate when it comes to RPGs. Considering how many debates there have been regarding what an RPG is, what elements are necessary for a game to be an RPG etc. it's clear that there are some people who have a wider definition for RPG and some who have a narrower. An example of a narrower definition would be to say that all games without turn-based combat are not RPGs.

Making a game where certain features who people would consider to be fundamentally important for an RPG are removed, changed or tweaked, could be considered to sacrificing "sacred cows". You might disagree with the interpretation, but you have to agree that it is possible to interpret it in that way.

I am pretty sceptical to the idea that companies should not have creative freedom, and that their former customers should be able to dictate what they do next.

If you feel strongly about having bought a game you didn't like, I suggest you do not buy games until you know they are up to your standards. There is no good way of implementing a system where people can consume games, books, and movies and only pay if they liked them.

Finally: BioWare is not obligated to make games you like. They are not obligated to make games at all. They can start making medical software if they like. None of the fans on these boards would be happy about that, but they can do that if they want to. I am not obligated to keep working for my employer, if I do not want to. If I don't do any work for my employer, she won't keep paying me wages. That is fair. If BioWare isn't doing what you want them to, stop buying their games. They'll come around if enough people do that.

[Ksandor]

Darth Krytie wrote...

Ksandor wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...

1. You do realise that Bioware is Canadian? And that EA also has studios in Canada? More than one?

As for the rights of a consumer? Um. Hate to break it to you. Bioware doesn't really owe us a custom-made game, tailored to each individual. They made a game. You didn't like it. Too bad. So sad. I loved it. Spending money on a game doesn't guarantee anything. Purchasing said game doesn't give you rights beyond the ability to play the thing on your console of choice. You have the game. It's complete. You might not like it, you might hate it, but you have it. Ergo, the payer/payee transaction is complete. You have a right to the disc working. Otherwise, you can exchange for one that functions properly. But, nowhere on a game does it guarantee that it'll be bug free or just what you wanted or anything.

As for this open letter to Gaider, you do realise he is not the sole hand in this franchise? He is not even the sole writer? He works within a group and they need to cooperate with other groups that do other functions. He is not an island.

As for the rest, I see you taking a lot of his comments out of context and either are willfully or unintentionally misinterpreting them.

I never said that I have right to have a game in the way exactly I want. I just said that this is a low quality game. That is MY opinion. The 2 points are very different. Confusing one for the other is just fast talking. This is demagogy. You are criticizing something I did not do. And Mr. Gaider is the Lead Writer. This is business not a democracy. He is the lead and he has the ultimate responsibilty of his team and he is well compensated for it. If you think I make his words blown out of context that is YOUR opinion. Imlying an agenda however is just stupid and I won't comment on it further. But I am an honest person. If you say that this is just a game, you did not like it, very well, forget about it and get on with your life, you are right. I will do that. This is my last post on this issue. Thank you.

I guess I totally misintepreted this as you thinking you should have more rights to the content of a game than you do: 

There should be legalities to bind you. If I had legal rights and enough
time and money I would sue EA and Bioware for cheating game owners by
selling such a low quality product, believe me.

I THINK that WE should have more rights to the content of the game than we do. You are absolutely correct. Otherwise they will continue to fail to satisfy us beyond offering "big boobed female sneaky butt Hawke -what kind of walk is that really? Could you be more lame, wtf?" and pointles melee mayhem and silly sexual innuendo. I mean hey it is just a game! Maybe for many of you that is enough. Not for me though. How can we improve ourselves if we won't demand more from ourselves?

[Darth Krytie]

For a person accusing everyone who disagrees with you of a being a demogogue, you sure ignore the fact that taking quotes out of context and assuming a meaning from them that was never explicitly stated and using said assumptions to attack someone's credibilty is exactly that: demagoguery.

Modifié par Darth Krytie, 07 avril 2011 - 10:25 .

[Ksandor]

Aldandil wrote...

Some thoughts on your post:

The metaphor "Sacred Cow" is used in English to denote to ideas and practices that are considered to be such a fundamental part of a greater whole, that they cannot be removed. The expression is pretty much only used when these ideas and practices are only necessary because of public opinion and habit. When used informally, I don't think you should take it as an insult to hinduism, since clearly, none is intended. I also think we all should encourage that developers interact informally with the people on the forums, and the best way of doing that is to not jump at them when they are using informal English. Basically, they should follow the forum rules like the rest of us. The expression "sacred cow", is definitely in line with them.

I also think that the term "sacred cow" is kind of appropriate when it comes to RPGs. Considering how many debates there have been regarding what an RPG is, what elements are necessary for a game to be an RPG etc. it's clear that there are some people who have a wider definition for RPG and some who have a narrower. An example of a narrower definition would be to say that all games without turn-based combat are not RPGs.

Making a game where certain features who people would consider to be fundamentally important for an RPG are removed, changed or tweaked, could be considered to sacrificing "sacred cows". You might disagree with the interpretation, but you have to agree that it is possible to interpret it in that way.

I am pretty sceptical to the idea that companies should not have creative freedom, and that their former customers should be able to dictate what they do next.

If you feel strongly about having bought a game you didn't like, I suggest you do not buy games until you know they are up to your standards. There is no good way of implementing a system where people can consume games, books, and movies and only pay if they liked them.

Finally: BioWare is not obligated to make games you like. They are not obligated to make games at all. They can start making medical software if they like. None of the fans on these boards would be happy about that, but they can do that if they want to. I am not obligated to keep working for my employer, if I do not want to. If I don't do any work for my employer, she won't keep paying me wages. That is fair. If BioWare isn't doing what you want them to, stop buying their games. They'll come around if enough people do that.

Fair enough. But honestly why I am getting this feeling that you are not reading my posts? I told Bioware that they do not have to make games if they will be supbar. I told them nobody is forcing you to make games. They can step aside and we shall see the next best plan from another competitor. I never said that I will force them to make MY game. I mean c'mon! Is such a thing even possible? And I repeat again I am not saying that they should make the game I want. I say they are known to do beter. Then please do better. The forum rules or common decency or my very limited rights as a paying customer don't forbid me of asking that. What is wrong with that?

[Oneiropolos]

Ksandor wrote...

And yes. He is Canadian. As an American, and one who has a sister who is a screenwriter in Hollywood no less, I could waste time being offended by your consistent generalization of Americans AND of the concept of how Americans tell stories in movies and in TV shows. Sorry, but, what? Give me a country who supposedly never retcons their stories and is always consistent. Even the extremely iconic Doctor Who in England is notorious for being *cough*Forget that happened in the previous series*cough*. Except, you know, I'm not actually sitting here being offended. More amused than anything. 

Did I say Mr. Gaider is American? I said his aproach is the typical American attitude. And if you think Canada and States are culturally or politically isolated to make Mr. Gaider totally immune to such attidue or that Bioware, an EA subsidiary does not have assets in States well... As for other countries doing the same... From who do you think they learned it? Besides I am not consistently generalizing, I am consitintely say that I don't generalize but if you accept that you won't have the possibilty to make such silly remarks to belittle my point. A good demagogy tactic when you do not feel strong enough to disprove my point, here comes the rhetoric. Besides whether Americans or Turks (my countrymen) do it or not re-imagining series is often crap (that is MY opinion) and Hollywood products are mostly superfical and shallow (again my opinion but believe it or not that is shared by many). I won't turn this post in Holyywood criticisim. I just don't want Bioware become as shallow as Hollywood. So you have a sister in Hollywood and I say Hollywood is shallow and reeks politically correct propaganda... This offends you or her how or if offends why should I care? Enough sarcasm, no more replies. Because obviously you understand the things I said in the way you want to have a superior position. Feel free to think that you scared me out of this forums or proved that I was wrong however.  

I actually did address your points. I just disagree with you. If you cannot see your own hypocrisy in saying that I am somehow using 'demagogue' tactics in disagreeing with you while you are insulting and belittling others...ah well. Also, since you did say you worked professionally in the field of translation, I am not saying this to be petty but honestly am pointing this out helpfully. A demagogue is a political term. It applies to the concept of trying to gain -political- power through use of illogical arguments that will only appeal to the public. The very word comes from the greek "to lead the people". It doesn't really apply well in personal debate when, as far as I am aware, neither of us are trying to gain some sort of political advantage on the other. Though this too, is debateable, as some things will always seem like a game of politics. 

I have also never tried to scare someone out of any forums. I disagree with you, and yes, you are insulting the "American attitude" as you put it. I simply pointed out that you do it several times and you did it once more in your reply. How this is not 'consistent' I am not sure. I also, in the very passage you quoted, said I am NOT sitting here being offended. I don't see a point to being offended. Yet, you state if you HAVE offended, you do not feel you should have a reason to care. You extol the concept that words demonstrate a person and their values in your first post, but you use your own words carelessly and do not care if you do offend. It seems all you wish us to do is praise how you have clearly put a Lead writer in his place in your post, despite the fact that you made it a public letter. Why post something on forums if you are not willing to discuss the topic? A forum is, by the very nature of what it has been in history and what it is on the internet, a place for exchange of ideas. If you were not willing to exchange ideas and instead accuse others of trying to scare you off for disagreeing with you...why did you not send your letter privately? It would have saved you grief in the end. 

Please notice that I said that IT SEEMS that you did not want us to actually offer contrasting opinion to yours. Perhaps this was not your intent at all and you welcome debate. From the way you have phrased things, it doesn't seem so, but I accept that it may have just been contextual error due to being words on a forum as opposed to face to face conversation.

Modifié par Oneiropolos, 07 avril 2011 - 10:34 .

[Ksandor]

Darth Krytie wrote...

For a person accusing everyone who disagrees with you of a being a demogogue, you sure ignore the fact that taking quotes out of context and assuming a meaning from them that was never explicitly stated and using said assumptions to attack someone's credibilty is exactly that: demagoguery.

You say I am taking what he said out of context. That is YOUR opinion. I say I do not do that and people who are insisting on that I do are demagouges. That is MY opinion.

Besides I wish you could discuss the points I make rather than criticizing my style. Heck maybe you are right, I should be more polite. But please stay on topic. We are dismantling Dragon Age II here. Not me. Or maybe you think that since I dislike the game I should be overanalyzed to estinction. I mean how I dare to be harsh to all mighty Bioware? I should only talk to the point my bucks extent.

[Torax]

I'm just still trying to figure what your goal was. An open letter to tell him he is bad at his job without offering much of anything in between. You even went as far as to say you won't even buy the next one without hearing or knowing anything about it. I'm just not even sure what the purpose is besides to blame him for what little you may or may not liked about the game. On top of that what you appeared to dislike about his posting on the forums. If we point out our opinions about parts of your long letter rant, you respond with "that is not what I said" type of sweeps against them. But it is what you said. You don't get to make generalizations about something he said or of people from a country and then act like it should be ignored later. You obviously think and feel these things.

So for example. Why bring up the "Sacred Cow" part unless your brain was at least a bit offended enough to throw it out there. Why bring up Americans in a negative multiple times. Why bring up your opinion of things like the American Film Industry like it has anything do with your complaints besides "Marketing"? I know you won't agree but this just seemed like an attempt at being moderate when it obviously isn't.

For example you just want to generalize the game as "Low Quality". Right there is the flaw. Sure the game is far from perfect. Sure the game isn't what I really wanted to be. But I'll still replay it for a long while. It's still better than so many games I've played. It actually made some improvements over parts of it's original. But it's not "Low Quality" it is just not what you want. But it's far from "Low Quality".

Don't post a long negative rant without pointing out the strengths the game has as well as it's weaknesses. Don't point out things you find negative out of their context just so you can attempt to bring Gaider into your view of petty hate while trying to claim you're not hating. Infact why make any of these comments when you have already decided to leave and not play a dragon age game again? Wouldn't that just mean you're worth writing off. At least as you try to paint David Gaeder to be, he would write you off the way you framed your letter.

Modifié par Torax, 07 avril 2011 - 10:35 .