130 réponses à ce sujet

[Darth Krytie]

It's not an opinion that you took his comments out of context. It is fact. It is fact because he made certain comments in regards to a certain situation and referring to a very specific group of people and you came in here and applied it to the world at large.

[Miashi]

I like the parts where you blame David Gaider for things that he isn't responsible for in the game (like bugs or gameplay). Real pro bro.

And lol at suing a gaming company. Sure sounds like a few World of Warcraft players pop'ed up on these forums lately; "THE GAME EXPERIENCE IS NOT TO MY ENTIRE LIKING, I WISH TO SUE YOU FOR ELEBENTY MILLIANS".

Modifié par Miashi, 07 avril 2011 - 11:05 .

[Aldandil]

Ksandor wrote...

Fair enough. But honestly why I am getting this feeling that you are not reading my posts? I told Bioware that they do not have to make games if they will be supbar. I told them nobody is forcing you to make games. They can step aside and we shall see the next best plan from another competitor. I never said that I will force them to make MY game. I mean c'mon! Is such a thing even possible? And I repeat again I am not saying that they should make the game I want. I say they are known to do beter. Then please do better. The forum rules or common decency or my very limited rights as a paying customer don't forbid me of asking that. What is wrong with that?

The fact that they are making games that people want to buy and play doesn't stop anyone else from making games. If anyone makes better games than BioWare, people will buy them instead. BioWare's competitors are producing games right now, something that is very obvious this year with a huge amount of single player RPGs about to be released. There's nothing wrong in asking them to do "better", which translates into "games you like" (these two expressions really mean the same thing, as I would ask you to remember). Saying that they should be required to by law is stretching it, and that is what I take issue with.

[Ksandor]

Oneiropolos wrote...

Ksandor wrote...

And yes. He is Canadian. As an American, and one who has a sister who is a screenwriter in Hollywood no less, I could waste time being offended by your consistent generalization of Americans AND of the concept of how Americans tell stories in movies and in TV shows. Sorry, but, what? Give me a country who supposedly never retcons their stories and is always consistent. Even the extremely iconic Doctor Who in England is notorious for being *cough*Forget that happened in the previous series*cough*. Except, you know, I'm not actually sitting here being offended. More amused than anything. 

Did I say Mr. Gaider is American? I said his aproach is the typical American attitude. And if you think Canada and States are culturally or politically isolated to make Mr. Gaider totally immune to such attidue or that Bioware, an EA subsidiary does not have assets in States well... As for other countries doing the same... From who do you think they learned it? Besides I am not consistently generalizing, I am consitintely say that I don't generalize but if you accept that you won't have the possibilty to make such silly remarks to belittle my point. A good demagogy tactic when you do not feel strong enough to disprove my point, here comes the rhetoric. Besides whether Americans or Turks (my countrymen) do it or not re-imagining series is often crap (that is MY opinion) and Hollywood products are mostly superfical and shallow (again my opinion but believe it or not that is shared by many). I won't turn this post in Holyywood criticisim. I just don't want Bioware become as shallow as Hollywood. So you have a sister in Hollywood and I say Hollywood is shallow and reeks politically correct propaganda... This offends you or her how or if offends why should I care? Enough sarcasm, no more replies. Because obviously you understand the things I said in the way you want to have a superior position. Feel free to think that you scared me out of this forums or proved that I was wrong however.  

I actually did address your points. I just disagree with you. If you cannot see your own hypocrisy in saying that I am somehow using 'demagogue' tactics in disagreeing with you while you are insulting and belittling others...ah well. Also, since you did say you worked professionally in the field of translation, I am not saying this to be petty but honestly am pointing this out helpfully. A demagogue is a political term. It applies to the concept of trying to gain -political- power through use of illogical arguments that will only appeal to the public. The very word comes from the greek "to lead the people". It doesn't really apply well in personal debate when, as far as I am aware, neither of us are trying to gain some sort of political advantage on the other. Though this too, is debateable, as some things will always seem like a game of politics. 

I have also never tried to scare someone out of any forums. I disagree with you, and yes, you are insulting the "American attitude" as you put it. I simply pointed out that you do it several times and you did it once more in your reply. How this is not 'consistent' I am not sure. I also, in the very passage you quoted, said I am NOT sitting here being offended. I don't see a point to being offended. Yet, you state if you HAVE offended, you do not feel you should have a reason to care. You extol the concept that words demonstrate a person and their values in your first post, but you use your own words carelessly and do not care if you do offend. It seems all you wish us to do is praise how you have clearly put a Lead writer in his place in your post, despite the fact that you made it a public letter. Why post something on forums if you are not willing to discuss the topic? A forum is, by the very nature of what it has been in history and what it is on the internet, a place for exchange of ideas. If you were not willing to exchange ideas and instead accuse others of trying to scare you off for disagreeing with you...why did you not send your letter privately? It would have saved you grief in the end. 

Please notice that I said that IT SEEMS that you did not want us to act.ally offer contrasting opinion to yours. Perhaps this was not your intent at all and you welcome debate. From the way you have phrased things, it doesn't seem so, but I accept that it may have just been contextual error due to being words on a forum as opposed to face to face conversation.

That is my point. You are political instead of being objective. What is it to you then? To accuse me of insulting Americans instead of analyzing the game. Are you aware that in your every post you criticized my style? I repeat maybe even you are right to some point. I wish this was the right place why we people find Amiracans insulting instead but this is not the point. I am not here to bash Americans. Not my job, not fair, and I don't have the right, not here. I mean with your nuclear stockpile you can't be bashed anyway.

I am trying to discuss the game but you constantly digress. You are supposedly inviting me to discuss the game yet you incite me for politics. I made this post to cricize the game. If you insist on stating your percieved offense (you say you are not offended but in your every post you say how you are not offended) I would call that political. Not every policy is discussed in the senate you know? I find your attitude highly political in the sense of trying to disprove and demonize my personality rather than discussing my ideas. Hiding behind standard definitions taken from a lexicon won't change that. Or do you mean that we don't have politics at the office, in our daily lives and such? I call yours primate superiority tactics. I mean how I dare to criticize the game? I should be smashed into the pit apparently I dug myself.

Modifié par Ksandor, 07 avril 2011 - 10:46 .

[Ksandor]

Aldandil wrote...

Ksandor wrote...

Fair enough. But honestly why I am getting this feeling that you are not reading my posts? I told Bioware that they do not have to make games if they will be supbar. I told them nobody is forcing you to make games. They can step aside and we shall see the next best plan from another competitor. I never said that I will force them to make MY game. I mean c'mon! Is such a thing even possible? And I repeat again I am not saying that they should make the game I want. I say they are known to do beter. Then please do better. The forum rules or common decency or my very limited rights as a paying customer don't forbid me of asking that. What is wrong with that?

The fact that they are making games that people want to buy and play doesn't stop anyone else from making games. If anyone makes better games than BioWare, people will buy them instead. BioWare's competitors are producing games right now, something that is very obvious this year with a huge amount of single player RPGs about to be released. There's nothing wrong in asking them to do "better", which translates into "games you like" (these two expressions really mean the same thing, as I would ask you to remember). Saying that they should be required to by law is stretching it, and that is what I take issue with.

Asking a better game of course include personal preferences but if you think the notion of a better game is hundred percent subjective this would mean that asking a better game is totally pointless. There should be objective criteria. Otherwise ours is a self defeating argument. No one can make a better game. 

[Darth Krytie]

Definition of political: exercising or seeking power in the governmental or public affairs of a state, municipality.

[Torax]

Look just understand something. You made it political when you brought it up. If you didn't want to be political you wouldn't have done so. Especially when addressing Canadians. You back peddle a lot. You also don't want people to critique your style but they are really going after what you typed. They can and should. You don't get to write them off by saying that they should be about the game. You weren't just about the game at all. The game and it's quality and your supposed complaints about that is such a minor part in all this. So I'm still not sure what you would want Gaider to gleam to be honest.

Generalizations which you tend to either claim you didn't mean while attempting to tie them into the game or Gaider directly. Not even offering ways to improve really. Just pointing out what you perceived as flawed and wrong. Just remembering that when typing something that is a generalization and then attempting to just write it off as an aside to your entire piece? Then you shouldn't have typed it out in the first place. If it was meant to back up or assist your writing then yes it is a part of can be responded to. Just like a hate of another country which apparently you have a bit of.

So much hate actually, enough that you tried to throw it on Gaider and all of Bioware.

[Miashi]

Well Ksandor, sounds like you're all set to make your own game that will blow Bioware off the orbit. Why do you go and do that in your free time, just like you did with your novel.

... oh wait, once you're done you'll be the only one playing it due to copyright issues.

[Aldandil]

Ksandor wrote...

Asking a better game of course include personal preferences but if you think the notion of a better game is hundred percent subjective this would mean that asking a better game is totally pointless. There should be objective criteria. Otherwise ours is a self defeating argument. No one can make a better game.

Pretty much the only thing that I would consider to be objective about game quality deals with bugs and similar errors. I don't think that there's any argument that a game should have as few bugs as possible, and DA2 definitely could be better in that department. Same thing goes for performance, I suppose (where DA2 was pretty good). I don't see a lot of comlaints about those things on the forums (not comparatively, anyway), nor in your post. Most people ask for completely subjective things. What is the point in asking for personal preferences to be taken into account in games? Well, the fact that you can't do much about it is the cause for a lot of fan frustration on the forums. You ask for features that you like. I ask for features that I like. BioWare includes features that they think as many people as possible will like (with regards to niches and what not). This is how I think the gaming market works, and I don't think it could work better any other way. That doesn't mean it's perfect, it means it is as good as it gets.

[Ksandor]

Torax wrote...

I'm just still trying to figure what your goal was. An open letter to tell him he is bad at his job without offering much of anything in between. You even went as far as to say you won't even buy the next one without hearing or knowing anything about it. I'm just not even sure what the purpose is besides to blame him for what little you may or may not liked about the game. On top of that what you appeared to dislike about his posting on the forums. If we point out our opinions about parts of your long letter rant, you respond with "that is not what I said" type of sweeps against them. But it is what you said. You don't get to make generalizations about something he said or of people from a country and then act like it should be ignored later. You obviously think and feel these things.

So for example. Why bring up the "Sacred Cow" part unless your brain was at least a bit offended enough to throw it out there. Why bring up Americans in a negative multiple times. Why bring up your opinion of things like the American Film Industry like it has anything do with your complaints besides "Marketing"? I know you won't agree but this just seemed like an attempt at being moderate when it obviously isn't.

For example you just want to generalize the game as "Low Quality". Right there is the flaw. Sure the game is far from perfect. Sure the game isn't what I really wanted to be. But I'll still replay it for a long while. It's still better than so many games I've played. It actually made some improvements over parts of it's original. But it's not "Low Quality" it is just not what you want. But it's far from "Low Quality".

Don't post a long negative rant without pointing out the strengths the game has as well as it's weaknesses. Don't point out things you find negative out of their context just so you can attempt to bring Gaider into your view of petty hate while trying to claim you're not hating. Infact why make any of these comments when you have already decided to leave and not play a dragon age game again? Wouldn't that just mean you're worth writing off. At least as you try to paint David Gaeder to be, he would write you off the way you framed your letter.

Please don't tell me that I in order to criticize the game I should also point out what I liked. That is just patronizing. I think the game is low quality. So what? You disagree. Ok, then? I offered much between, you don't think so, next?I blamed Gaider, yes and? No sweeps. That is not what I said. I said I don't like that American atttude. I don't like it. This does not mean Americans are evil or every American has that attitude. I name it American attitude. That is my opinion. I don't like that attitude, I don't say Americans are stupid or that I don't like them. I could say but I don't think so. Stating this is insulting your nation how? Anyway let me add another thing. I am a Turk. I think many Turks are lazy (a Turkish attitude) and instead of internalizing technology or culture they imitate it in a rather bad way. They are also not good citizens in the sense of failing to internalize citizenship culture, they are prone to defy laws. It is just an opinion, MY opinion. Did I insult Turks now? Do I think my people are an evil scourge to be wiped out of the planet? Do I exaggerate? Yes, to prove that YOU are exaggerating while trying to corner me. And we are still NOT discussing the game. Please continue to attack me. Please continue to prove me. I say maybe I should not even have call it an American attitude. Move on... You say my view is petty hate. OK. That is another OPINION. calling me names instead of discussing the game is what really petty though. Are you aware that you are still discussing ME? I am flattered in a pervert way I think...

[Ksandor]

Aldandil wrote...

Ksandor wrote...

Asking a better game of course include personal preferences but if you think the notion of a better game is hundred percent subjective this would mean that asking a better game is totally pointless. There should be objective criteria. Otherwise ours is a self defeating argument. No one can make a better game.

Pretty much the only thing that I would consider to be objective about game quality deals with bugs and similar errors. I don't think that there's any argument that a game should have as few bugs as possible, and DA2 definitely could be better in that department. Same thing goes for performance, I suppose (where DA2 was pretty good). I don't see a lot of comlaints about those things on the forums (not comparatively, anyway), nor in your post. Most people ask for completely subjective things. What is the point in asking for personal preferences to be taken into account in games? Well, the fact that you can't do much about it is the cause for a lot of fan frustration on the forums. You ask for features that you like. I ask for features that I like. BioWare includes features that they think as many people as possible will like (with regards to niches and what not). This is how I think the gaming market works, and I don't think it could work better any other way. That doesn't mean it's perfect, it means it is as good as it gets.

I see your point except I would like to point out something: You say BioWare includes features that they think as many people as possible will like (with regards to niches and what not). I don't think they included the features you mentioned in this game. If they did it would be something better. Many features people liked in the first game are not in this game. Though of course we may disagree on it. I am just really not sure that they really tried to include those things people like. I think they were focusing on cutting corners rather than including those features. They did not have enough time. 

[Aldandil]

Ksandor wrote...

I see your point except I would like to point out something: You say BioWare includes features that they think as many people as possible will like (with regards to niches and what not). I don't think they included the features you mentioned in this game. If they did it would be something better. Many features people liked in the first game are not in this game. Though of course we may disagree on it. I am just really not sure that they really tried to include those things people like. I think they were focusing on cutting corners rather than including those features. They did not have enough time.

Oh, I agree that the game would have been better if they had had more time and money, but isn't that always the case? I'm guessing that with a limited budget they went for (quality)/(available resources). I'm assuming that they cut out things from the first game based on the assumption that it didn't provide enough quality for the resources they had to spend. If the game doesn't sell well, they will find out they were wrong.

[Torax]

You can ask for improvements in areas you think should be improved. Just don't generalize it all as low quality just for some import bugs and or cause Leliana is walking around cause one of the far too many scenarios that Origins could end. Is the time line perfect? Of course not to me. Witch Hunt ins't even used as checks for the references in DA 2.

Is the story what I wanted it to be? Not really but it still has it's interesting parts even when playing again.The voice work is strong and only has some side characters that could be a little over the top. But Low Quality as a whole the game? No. The combat is more fast paced than Origins. But it also means the fighting is more action orientated and to a degree more fun. Melee is far more entertaining. While I did love dual-wield warrior in Origins, trying to chase a moving target as a melee in origins was frustrating as hell. Especially if there was a lot of other melee helping you. Overall I'd rate the combat far stronger than Origins ever was. The chat system is stronger as well. The companions actually feel more fleshed out personally. But that is just my opinion. One of the best parts, talking to a companion isn't one sided now.

The game will not please everyone. It didn't exactly please me at first but it has grown on me. Calling it "Low Quality" and stating not just in this thread about how you won't even buy the next one? Why should anyone care what your opinion is. You offer no fixes. Just complaints and generalizations. You write off those that question you on top of it. Just baffles my mind on why you'd still be here if you have no interest in the game or the company as you seem to act anyway.

[Ksandor]

Torax wrote...

Look just understand something. You made it political when you brought it up. If you didn't want to be political you wouldn't have done so. Especially when addressing Canadians. You back peddle a lot. You also don't want people to critique your style but they are really going after what you typed. They can and should. You don't get to write them off by saying that they should be about the game. You weren't just about the game at all. The game and it's quality and your supposed complaints about that is such a minor part in all this. So I'm still not sure what you would want Gaider to gleam to be honest.

Generalizations which you tend to either claim you didn't mean while attempting to tie them into the game or Gaider directly. Not even offering ways to improve really. Just pointing out what you perceived as flawed and wrong. Just remembering that when typing something that is a generalization and then attempting to just write it off as an aside to your entire piece? Then you shouldn't have typed it out in the first place. If it was meant to back up or assist your writing then yes it is a part of can be responded to. Just like a hate of another country which apparently you have a bit of.

So much hate actually, enough that you tried to throw it on Gaider and all of Bioware.

Of course people should voice their opinions. I do not like it when they make it personal but you are replying here yes? You are still trying to funnel my personality and opinions into a hate post. You also think I back pedal a lot. OK. You are still not trying to disprove my point. You are only trying to dictate me an attitude and to instruct me on how should I behave people. The interesting part is that if you are dismissing me so easly and implying that I have a political agenda why are you still replying to me? What are you trying to make me understand? I am just gnat beneath your power man :innocent:. With a political agenda, Turks will rule the world maybe? Oh by the way you are still discussing me. God that should inflate my ego. Your will, feel free to exercise it. I will just crawl to that corner and sulk on how the mighty ones put me in my place. Do you not realize that like you do not care about my opinion I do not care about yours too? But you are right at one point I should stop replying. Replying means to take you serisously.

[Ksandor]

Aldandil wrote...

Ksandor wrote...

I see your point except I would like to point out something: You say BioWare includes features that they think as many people as possible will like (with regards to niches and what not). I don't think they included the features you mentioned in this game. If they did it would be something better. Many features people liked in the first game are not in this game. Though of course we may disagree on it. I am just really not sure that they really tried to include those things people like. I think they were focusing on cutting corners rather than including those features. They did not have enough time.

Oh, I agree that the game would have been better if they had had more time and money, but isn't that always the case? I'm guessing that with a limited budget they went for (quality)/(available resources). I'm assuming that they cut out things from the first game based on the assumption that it didn't provide enough quality for the resources they had to spend. If the game doesn't sell well, they will find out they were wrong.

You are right. Every game suffers from budget. Mass Effect 2 suffered from it too. But despite that it was an excellent game. This may tell you about something how to handle a limited budget. I wonder if they had more budget than Dragon Age II. The most disconcerting fact for me that this game MAY sell better than the DAO. Where would we be then?

[Oneiropolos]

Ksandor wrote...
That is my point. You are political instead of being objective. What is it to you then? To accuse me of insulting Americans instead of analyzing the game. Are you aware that in your every post you criticized my style? I repeat maybe even you are right to some point. I wish this was the right place why we people find Amiracans insulting instead but this is not the point. I am not here to bash Americans. Not my job, not fair, and I don't have the right, not here. I mean with your nuclear stockpile you can't be bashed anyway.

I am trying to discuss the game but you constantly digress. You are supposedly inviting me to discuss the game yet you incite me for politics. I made this post to cricize the game. If you insist on stating your percieved offense (you say you are not offended but in your every post you say how you are not offended) I would call that political. Not every policy is discussed in the senate you know? I find your attitude highly political in the sense of  trying to disprove and demonize my personality rather than discussing my ideas. Hiding behind standard definitions taken from a lexicon won't change that. Or do you mean that we don't have politics at the office, in our daily lives and such? I call yours primate superiority tactics. I mean how I dare to criticize the game? I should be smashed into the pit apparently I dug myself.

I'll quote myself... sadly... to point out where I actually discussed the game and you ignored because you wanted to focus on a different aspect of my post while I did fully read and address yours. 

Oneiropolos wrote...
It's also good you realize that you can't prove Dragon Age II is a 'bad game' because even though I was disappointed with some aspects of it, I've played through it four times and still grinning when I manage to poke it in a new way and discover new situations and comments. Is it as good as Origins? Well, it's shorter. So I've poked it ALOT more and even did playthroughs I wouldn't have spent the time doing in DA:O. But I loved the choices in DA:O and I really hope they gravitate back towards letting us talk to companions more again. Yet, that would involve writing more. Which means I must sincerely like the writing the writers have already done for DAII or I wouldn't be wanting more of it. Even people complaining about perceived retcons and chronologies are doing so because they analyzed the codex entries. They are doing so on the basis that they RELIED ON THE WRITING. 


Yes, I WILL Give you the point about the timeline being wonky. It is. I've tried to twist it all around and there's just no way to end up with Anders having been in Awakening AND there just a year after you arrived in Kirkwall. The warden he references meeting wouldn't have even met him yet even with the most liberal dates! That's a part where someone on the team should have gone "...wait.... this doesn't add up." But unless they start making time REALLY crucial for us, and judging by the way they consistently skipped three years ahead without being phased in DAII, I don't think they're going to, I think we can forgive them a timeline that is a bit off. 

Your letter was also addressed purely at Mr. Gaider and claiming he was dismissive of fans. I wrote why I disagreed, as well as quoted him directly AND gave links so people could look themselves to see the context in which he spoke. Honestly, I don't try to 'demonize' people on the internet over disagreeing with them. What would remotely be the point? I don't know you. You don't know me. I don't think I'm 'superior' to anyone.  I'm actually baffled at how you are becoming increasingly more hostile towards other people. But that also indicates there is no point in continuing the discussion. It appears you are determined to believe I have ignored your points and your concepts are the only valid ones. 

Of course, as Francois de La Rochefoucauld said, "We rarely think people have good sense unless they agree with us.":D He was French and lived in the 1600s so I think he's safely out of any political arguments either of us are likely to use, yes? You have stated to two different people now that you don't care about their opinions or emotions. So, I'll step out so I'm not accused of trying to scare you off the forums anymore. I imagine from what you have said, you will envision me stepping out with my nose in the air and a huffy sniff. If that image amuses you and makes you feel better about yourself, have at it. It's not how it's actually happening, but oh well. 



 

[Ksandor]

Torax wrote...

You can ask for improvements in areas you think should be improved. Just don't generalize it all as low quality just for some import bugs and or cause Leliana is walking around cause one of the far too many scenarios that Origins could end. Is the time line perfect? Of course not to me. Witch Hunt ins't even used as checks for the references in DA 2.

Is the story what I wanted it to be? Not really but it still has it's interesting parts even when playing again.The voice work is strong and only has some side characters that could be a little over the top. But Low Quality as a whole the game? No. The combat is more fast paced than Origins. But it also means the fighting is more action orientated and to a degree more fun. Melee is far more entertaining. While I did love dual-wield warrior in Origins, trying to chase a moving target as a melee in origins was frustrating as hell. Especially if there was a lot of other melee helping you. Overall I'd rate the combat far stronger than Origins ever was. The chat system is stronger as well. The companions actually feel more fleshed out personally. But that is just my opinion. One of the best parts, talking to a companion isn't one sided now.

The game will not please everyone. It didn't exactly please me at first but it has grown on me. Calling it "Low Quality" and stating not just in this thread about how you won't even buy the next one? Why should anyone care what your opinion is. You offer no fixes. Just complaints and generalizations. You write off those that question you on top of it. Just baffles my mind on why you'd still be here if you have no interest in the game or the company as you seem to act anyway.

I am not sure about why do you think that coming here and saying the game is of low quality and that I won't buy it the next installement is particularly offensive. You do not find it relevant? Ok then why do you come here to trade barbs? Besides I bought the game, I am a registired owner and I have right to state my opinion about the game. I did not say that I won't buy the next game. I said I won't buy it if it will be similar to this game. Stating that here is all too normal. I am the customer and this is the vendor's board. Where should I state that? If you think me an idiot it is ok. For you I am an idiot. And I really find amusing to hear people belittle the novels I wrote and hours I spent in them without reading a single sentence. How many pages they wrote to say something like that I wonder. But I replied them here no? Now they can safely be content on how they hurt my delicate feelings. Mummy... I wanna cry!

[Eollodwyn]

Ksandor wrote...

2) I am not a follower of Hinduism, I am Muslim and I don’t find this
sacred cow idea offensive. But that is a very American thing to do >
cultural relativism. Mocking people’s cultural values, detracting their
value and exploiting them in cheap Hollywood movies… I could say more
but I don’t want polemics and I don’t want to brand Americans
in general, I just criticize people who have a similar approach. I am
also sure that you did not mean it that way but we cannot say everything
we want in everywhere we want. This is a public board and you may have
Hindu customers. We should be careful about that

Your prejudice does you no credit, nor does it in any way help your argument.  Neither does it help your credibility when you insist you don't want to generalize after you just did. 

I think you developers have too much free reign in software business.
There should be legalities to bind you. If I had legal rights and enough
time and money I would sue EA and Bioware for cheating game owners by
selling such a low quality product, believe me. But proving that would
be very difficult. Some people would say I like the game. Some would
say I don’t like it and many would say that I like the game but I don’t
like some details. This is why you can talk us in this manner. Nobody
stops you legally from doing it. The industry should mature a lot if we
are ever to come to that.

I THINK that WE should have more rights to the content of the game than
we do. You are absolutely correct. Otherwise they will continue to fail
to satisfy us beyond offering "big boobed female sneaky butt Hawke -what
kind of walk is that really? Could you be more lame, wtf?" and pointles
melee mayhem and silly sexual innuendo. I mean hey it is just a game!
Maybe for many of you that is enough. Not for me though. How can we
improve ourselves if we won't demand more from ourselves?

This argument here just blows my mind.  I'm not even sure where to start with it.  You think the consumer, every consumer, should have a say in what's in the game, despite having put no money into development, being under no legal obligation to buy the game once it's come out, not having any professional experience in game development, holding nothing resembling a copyright, and being only one of millions of potential buyers?  That game companies should have a legal obligation to please their consumers, despite the fact that no one forced you to buy the game and personal taste is impossible to predict and varies widely from buyer to buyer?  I don't even...

Asking a better game of course include personal preferences but if
you think the notion of a better game is hundred percent subjective this
would mean that asking a better game is totally pointless. There should
be objective criteria. Otherwise ours is a self defeating argument. No
one can make a better game. 

Clearly the idea of a "better" game is subjective, because there are people on this forum who thought DA II was better than Origins.  The idea of some sort of standardized criteria is absurd.  People will prioritize things differently, and any standard will just reflect the opinions and priorities of some.

Modifié par Eollodwyn, 07 avril 2011 - 11:42 .

[Ksandor]

Oneiropolos wrote...

Ksandor wrote...
That is my point. You are political instead of being objective. What is it to you then? To accuse me of insulting Americans instead of analyzing the game. Are you aware that in your every post you criticized my style? I repeat maybe even you are right to some point. I wish this was the right place why we people find Amiracans insulting instead but this is not the point. I am not here to bash Americans. Not my job, not fair, and I don't have the right, not here. I mean with your nuclear stockpile you can't be bashed anyway.

I am trying to discuss the game but you constantly digress. You are supposedly inviting me to discuss the game yet you incite me for politics. I made this post to cricize the game. If you insist on stating your percieved offense (you say you are not offended but in your every post you say how you are not offended) I would call that political. Not every policy is discussed in the senate you know? I find your attitude highly political in the sense of  trying to disprove and demonize my personality rather than discussing my ideas. Hiding behind standard definitions taken from a lexicon won't change that. Or do you mean that we don't have politics at the office, in our daily lives and such? I call yours primate superiority tactics. I mean how I dare to criticize the game? I should be smashed into the pit apparently I dug myself.

I'll quote myself... sadly... to point out where I actually discussed the game and you ignored because you wanted to focus on a different aspect of my post while I did fully read and address yours. 

Oneiropolos wrote...
It's also good you realize that you can't prove Dragon Age II is a 'bad game' because even though I was disappointed with some aspects of it, I've played through it four times and still grinning when I manage to poke it in a new way and discover new situations and comments. Is it as good as Origins? Well, it's shorter. So I've poked it ALOT more and even did playthroughs I wouldn't have spent the time doing in DA:O. But I loved the choices in DA:O and I really hope they gravitate back towards letting us talk to companions more again. Yet, that would involve writing more. Which means I must sincerely like the writing the writers have already done for DAII or I wouldn't be wanting more of it. Even people complaining about perceived retcons and chronologies are doing so because they analyzed the codex entries. They are doing so on the basis that they RELIED ON THE WRITING. 


Yes, I WILL Give you the point about the timeline being wonky. It is. I've tried to twist it all around and there's just no way to end up with Anders having been in Awakening AND there just a year after you arrived in Kirkwall. The warden he references meeting wouldn't have even met him yet even with the most liberal dates! That's a part where someone on the team should have gone "...wait.... this doesn't add up." But unless they start making time REALLY crucial for us, and judging by the way they consistently skipped three years ahead without being phased in DAII, I don't think they're going to, I think we can forgive them a timeline that is a bit off. 

Your letter was also addressed purely at Mr. Gaider and claiming he was dismissive of fans. I wrote why I disagreed, as well as quoted him directly AND gave links so people could look themselves to see the context in which he spoke. Honestly, I don't try to 'demonize' people on the internet over disagreeing with them. What would remotely be the point? I don't know you. You don't know me. I don't think I'm 'superior' to anyone.  I'm actually baffled at how you are becoming increasingly more hostile towards other people. But that also indicates there is no point in continuing the discussion. It appears you are determined to believe I have ignored your points and your concepts are the only valid ones. 

Of course, as Francois de La Rochefoucauld said, "We rarely think people have good sense unless they agree with us.":D He was French and lived in the 1600s so I think he's safely out of any political arguments either of us are likely to use, yes? You have stated to two different people now that you don't care about their opinions or emotions. So, I'll step out so I'm not accused of trying to scare you off the forums anymore. I imagine from what you have said, you will envision me stepping out with my nose in the air and a huffy sniff. If that image amuses you and makes you feel better about yourself, have at it. It's not how it's actually happening, but oh well. 



 

Actually I wish I met you on a different occasion to have a much more constructive discussion. I wish you understand that I am not at an ego tour. You seem well versed... Oh well... I like the image you conjured up. Imagining that would amuse me a bit, true. But since I am not on an ego tour bickering with you is useless. And I am becoming increasingly hostile? I liked that part. So I would be your enemy just because you have mocked me a bit? Look this is all blown out of proportion. I still think that you made it personal instead of addresing the points I made, you have chosen to be sarcastic. That of course irritated me. But despite that I wish you well. I also wish your sister success in her career.

[Miashi]

Ksandor wrote...
And I really find amusing to hear people belittle the novels I wrote and hours I spent in them without reading a single sentence.

And I find it amusing you belittle David Gaider's quotes without reading them in their proper context.

Does that make us buddies?

[Darth Krytie]

Miashi wrote...

Ksandor wrote...
And I really find amusing to hear people belittle the novels I wrote and hours I spent in them without reading a single sentence.

And I find it amusing you belittle David Gaider's quotes without reading them in their proper context.

Does that make us buddies?

Hir logic does not resemble Earth logic. It's an endless battle against someone deadset on arguing for the sake of it without actually saying anything. 

[Torax]

Darth Krytie wrote...

Miashi wrote...

Ksandor wrote...
And I really find amusing to hear people belittle the novels I wrote and hours I spent in them without reading a single sentence.

And I find it amusing you belittle David Gaider's quotes without reading them in their proper context.

Does that make us buddies?

Hir logic does not resemble Earth logic. It's an endless battle against someone deadset on arguing for the sake of it without actually saying anything. 

You mean like all the others mad that Leliana is alive?

[Darth Krytie]

Torax wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...

Miashi wrote...

Ksandor wrote...
And I really find amusing to hear people belittle the novels I wrote and hours I spent in them without reading a single sentence.

And I find it amusing you belittle David Gaider's quotes without reading them in their proper context.

Does that make us buddies?

Hir logic does not resemble Earth logic. It's an endless battle against someone deadset on arguing for the sake of it without actually saying anything. 

You mean like all the others mad that Leliana is alive?

Since I never saw the point in killing all my companions, I didn't know about that kerfluffle til I went online. And, at the end of the day, I figured that something really interesting was going to come from it after Gaider said that there's a reason she's there. I accepted his statement and moved on. No point in beating that dead horse. Yelling at him isn't going to magic a different game in your console of choice, now is it? lol

[Ksandor]

Eollodwyn wrote...

Ksandor wrote...

2) I am not a follower of Hinduism, I am Muslim and I don’t find this
sacred cow idea offensive. But that is a very American thing to do >
cultural relativism. Mocking people’s cultural values, detracting their
value and exploiting them in cheap Hollywood movies… I could say more
but I don’t want polemics and I don’t want to brand Americans
in general, I just criticize people who have a similar approach. I am
also sure that you did not mean it that way but we cannot say everything
we want in everywhere we want. This is a public board and you may have
Hindu customers. We should be careful about that

Your prejudice does you no credit, nor does it in any way help your argument.  Neither does it help your credibility when you insist you don't want to generalize after you just did. 

I think you developers have too much free reign in software business.
There should be legalities to bind you. If I had legal rights and enough
time and money I would sue EA and Bioware for cheating game owners by
selling such a low quality product, believe me. But proving that would
be very difficult. Some people would say I like the game. Some would
say I don’t like it and many would say that I like the game but I don’t
like some details. This is why you can talk us in this manner. Nobody
stops you legally from doing it. The industry should mature a lot if we
are ever to come to that.

I THINK that WE should have more rights to the content of the game than
we do. You are absolutely correct. Otherwise they will continue to fail
to satisfy us beyond offering "big boobed female sneaky butt Hawke -what
kind of walk is that really? Could you be more lame, wtf?" and pointles
melee mayhem and silly sexual innuendo. I mean hey it is just a game!
Maybe for many of you that is enough. Not for me though. How can we
improve ourselves if we won't demand more from ourselves?

This argument here just blows my mind.  I'm not even sure where to start with it.  You think the consumer, every consumer, should have a say in what's in the game, despite having put no money into development, being under no legal obligation to buy the game once it's come out, not having any professional experience in game development, holding nothing resembling a copyright, and being only one of millions of potential buyers?  That game companies should have a legal obligation to please their consumers, despite the fact that no one forced you to buy the game and personal taste is impossible to predict and varies widely from buyer to buyer?  I don't even...

Asking a better game of course include personal preferences but if
you think the notion of a better game is hundred percent subjective this
would mean that asking a better game is totally pointless. There should
be objective criteria. Otherwise ours is a self defeating argument. No
one can make a better game. 

Clearly the idea of a "better" game is subjective, because there are people on this forum who thought DA II was better than Origins.  The idea of some sort of standardized criteria is absurd.  People will prioritize things differently, and any standard will just reflect the opinions and priorities of some.

It is a cultural trait I mostly attribute to Americans. But I don't think Americans are evil. I wish you could understand that. I also stated that I should not take it over from that point. And I said that is MY opinion. You do not like my opinion, you disagree with me. You stated so. And? You are right though. That did not help my argument. I should not have done it. Call it backpedalling. I call it being honest to myself. I will not feel ashamed to admit a mistake I've done in public. This does not change my opinion but stating here was unnecessary.

And just a question. If the ultimate answer is "Don't like it? Don't buy it" then what? Beyond Dragon Age II what will force them to do better, what will force any company to do better --not only in terms of quality, but public safety and security concerns in other industries? And maybe the game is of low quality and still sells well. What then? Ignore the genre altogether? What do you suggest? Smells wild capitalism to me.  

[Torax]

Beating the dead horse totally will make it better. Especially when you never state a way it would be better...