Miashi wrote...
Ksandor wrote...
And I really find amusing to hear people belittle the novels I wrote and hours I spent in them without reading a single sentence.
And I find it amusing you belittle David Gaider's quotes without reading them in their proper context.
Does that make us buddies?
.
Seena wrote...
Clearly some people don't embrace the concept that brevity invites an audience in this medium.
Can someone paraphrase for me?? Please tell me he wasn't being literal about the sacred cow thing...
Ksandor wrote...
And just a question. If the ultimate answer is "Don't like it? Don't buy it" then what? Beyond Dragon Age II what will force them to do better, what will force any company to do better --not only in terms of quality, but public safety and security concerns in other industries? And maybe the game is of low quality and still sells well. What then? Ignore the genre altogether? What do you suggest? Smells wild capitalism to me.
Torax wrote...
Seena wrote...
Clearly some people don't embrace the concept that brevity invites an audience in this medium.
Can someone paraphrase for me?? Please tell me he wasn't being literal about the sacred cow thing...
I think he was being literal and then just tried to cast it off like he wasn't taking seriously. Truth be told it's like the American stuff. I just think he wanted to add them but it doesn't belong there. Best I can figure anyway.
Miashi wrote...
Guys, guys. Clearly we're oppressing him with our "American attitude".
By the way, it is very "American" to refer to your "rights", which you like to mention a lot in your posts. Maybe you're really an American trolling us?
Mind = blown
Seena wrote...
Clearly some people don't embrace the concept that brevity invites an audience in this medium.
Can someone paraphrase for me?? Please tell me he wasn't being literal about the sacred cow thing...
Modifié par Darth Krytie, 07 avril 2011 - 12:23 .
Ksandor wrote...
Please continue to be American... It is afterall self explanatory.
Modifié par Miashi, 07 avril 2011 - 12:20 .
Darth Krytie wrote...
Ksandor wrote...
And just a question. If the ultimate answer is "Don't like it? Don't buy it" then what? Beyond Dragon Age II what will force them to do better, what will force any company to do better --not only in terms of quality, but public safety and security concerns in other industries? And maybe the game is of low quality and still sells well. What then? Ignore the genre altogether? What do you suggest? Smells wild capitalism to me.
The problem comes here: how do you define better? And, moreover, who defines what is and is not low quality. If a game is, in your opinion, low quality and still sells really well, why should your opinion get more weight than the people who obviously disagree?
The only thing that will drive a company to change is sales. If the sale go down, they reevaluate what caused that. Even then, the changes they make due to dwindling sales might not be the changes you deemed poor and they might change things you deemed good.
See how this whole discussion is moot since "better" and "quality" and "good" and "poor" are almost entirely in the eyes of the beholder?
I can't claim to know what you should do since you're so clearly disenchanted with this industry. And it is capitalism because the very nature of this industry is to supply the demand for a particular product.
Ksandor wrote...
Darth Krytie wrote...
Ksandor wrote...
And just a question. If the ultimate answer is "Don't like it? Don't buy it" then what? Beyond Dragon Age II what will force them to do better, what will force any company to do better --not only in terms of quality, but public safety and security concerns in other industries? And maybe the game is of low quality and still sells well. What then? Ignore the genre altogether? What do you suggest? Smells wild capitalism to me.
The problem comes here: how do you define better? And, moreover, who defines what is and is not low quality. If a game is, in your opinion, low quality and still sells really well, why should your opinion get more weight than the people who obviously disagree?
The only thing that will drive a company to change is sales. If the sale go down, they reevaluate what caused that. Even then, the changes they make due to dwindling sales might not be the changes you deemed poor and they might change things you deemed good.
See how this whole discussion is moot since "better" and "quality" and "good" and "poor" are almost entirely in the eyes of the beholder?
I can't claim to know what you should do since you're so clearly disenchanted with this industry. And it is capitalism because the very nature of this industry is to supply the demand for a particular product.
That is the problem. The economy does not include the prerogative of addressing people's needs. Only supply and demand matter. Disenchanted is a good point. I truly don't see a way out of this. I also agree that they will prorabily make it worse while trying to "improve the next game". I don't trust them... I lost my faith in them.
Darth Krytie wrote...
Person thinks that David Gaider is the only person working at Bioware and all problems are belong to him. (deliberately poor grammar for those not getting the refence)
Person decides to call David Gaider out for comments made in forum, but also takes them out of context and finds whole novels in between the lines because I certainly never knew that's what David Gaider was really saying
Person thinks that the American attitude (which is a reference to some inherently negative thing about us poor sods) has infected the great nation of Canada and all those who reside within.
Person thinks that Imomen was only made a lesbian for straight male titilation and that person's fanfic is better than the published author of BG offical novels
Person thinks that they should be able to sue Bioware because DA2 wasn't exactly what they wanted.
Person thinks Sacred Cow as a phrase is somehow insulting all the people of Hindu faith.
Person thinks anyone who disagrees with person is insulting hir style and is a demogogue. For some reason. Because conflating this forum thread with politicians in Government makes some sort of sense. Maybe on a planet that is not this one.
Alright. Then we drop it.It is a cultural trait I mostly attribute to Americans. But I
don't think Americans are evil. I wish you could understand that. I also
stated that I should not take it over from that point. And I said that
is MY opinion. You do not like my opinion, you disagree with me. You
stated so. And? You are right though. That did not help my argument. I
should not have done it. Call it backpedalling. I call it being honest
to myself. I will not feel ashamed to admit a mistake I've done in
public. This does not change my opinion but stating here was
unnecessary.
Then you don't buy it. If the sales and profits don't force them to do better, then so be it. If the profits are such that they don't feel they have to do better, then the game did well enough to satisfy them, and there is no need to do better. Why force a company that deals entirely in entertainment to do any better than they feel they should?And just a question. If the ultimate answer is "Don't like it? Don't
buy it" then what? Beyond Dragon Age II what will force them to do
better, what will force any company to do better --not only in terms of
quality, but public safety and security concerns in other industries?
And maybe the game is of low quality and still sells well. What then?
Ignore the genre altogether? What do you suggest? Smells wild capitalism
to me.
Modifié par Eollodwyn, 07 avril 2011 - 12:33 .
Miashi wrote...
Ksandor wrote...
Please continue to be American... It is afterall self explanatory.
Definitely. I hope it'll somewhat reconforts you enough to persist in destroying your own arguments.
Ksandor wrote...
Asking a better game of course include personal preferences but if you think the notion of a better game is hundred percent subjective this would mean that asking a better game is totally pointless. There should be objective criteria. Otherwise ours is a self defeating argument. No one can make a better game.
Seena wrote...
Darth Krytie wrote...
Person thinks that David Gaider is the only person working at Bioware and all problems are belong to him. (deliberately poor grammar for those not getting the refence)
Person decides to call David Gaider out for comments made in forum, but also takes them out of context and finds whole novels in between the lines because I certainly never knew that's what David Gaider was really saying
Person thinks that the American attitude (which is a reference to some inherently negative thing about us poor sods) has infected the great nation of Canada and all those who reside within.
Person thinks that Imomen was only made a lesbian for straight male titilation and that person's fanfic is better than the published author of BG offical novels
Person thinks that they should be able to sue Bioware because DA2 wasn't exactly what they wanted.
Person thinks Sacred Cow as a phrase is somehow insulting all the people of Hindu faith.
Person thinks anyone who disagrees with person is insulting hir style and is a demogogue. For some reason. Because conflating this forum thread with politicians in Government makes some sort of sense. Maybe on a planet that is not this one.
Excellent synopsis Darth, thank-you.
It all just makes you go "wtf???"
But the REAL question is, why in earth does he think that David Gaider cares one cow's hairy whit whether he hates him or not?
????
Ksandor wrote...
I am not surprised with Mr. Gaider's reaction. He says “I am the writer, this is my prerogative, go pout, I win” (sorry about that Joker J). This is all too normal. He would never admit that his work in DA II is subpar. Admitting one’s mistakes is always emotionally difficult. Admitting something like that in public is not a sound career choice. And no company would like to see their employers confess something like that.
Besides why should he care about why people did not like his work in DA II? His mainstream work sells well enough to justify the quality level. He defends his work with the standard businessman relativist and stoic attitude. He says that our criticism is invalid because it is our preference, it is subjective and he does not care. But despite Mr. Gaider’s indifference we know that there are blatant continuity errors because of the time constraints imposed upon the creative staff and there are obvious plot holes in the game. Dismissing our claims by overanalyzing them won't change the truth.
One should ask himself: If I did this right why there are so many negative reactions? I know many games which are far better story wise. Baldur's Gate series and Mass Effect games are a testament to that. Gaider should look at BG Throne of Bhaal unofficial mod of his called Ascension to see how far he has fallen in quality. But he would not care about it. He is paid well by Bioware and EA (and believe me even if I don’t like DA II I wish him success in his career) and people still buy DA II copies. So he won't be compelled to do something better. He too knows this is not one of his best moments but trying to force him to admit that is pointless. Actually I think that Mr. Gaider is perfectly capable of doing much better, but as long as there is easy money to make… Well you get my point.
Of course they will find many people to sell this anachronistic medieval fantasy fiasco to replace the single sale (!) they lost because of me but I am a free man, I have my own opinion whether teenager fanboys who are policing this forum think me a jerk or not, I won't buy a game like this again. I don't want to waste my money on mediocre work.
And do you know why DA II is not half of that it should have been? This is because you would need more than 18 months to make a decent computer role playing game. It should take at least 2 years. As an insider and a professional game writer Mr. Gaider knows that very well too. If he had enough time he would excel himself. The only way to make Bioware and EA guys change their mind is to not buy such games. Do you see it happening anytime soon? Don’t think so.
That is the problem. The economy does not include the prerogative of addressing people's needs. Only supply and demand matter. Disenchanted is a good point. I truly don't see a way out of this. I also agree that they will prorabily make it worse while trying to "improve the next game". I don't trust them... I lost my faith in them.
Torax wrote...
Ksandor wrote...
Darth Krytie wrote...
Ksandor wrote...
And just a question. If the ultimate answer is "Don't like it? Don't buy it" then what? Beyond Dragon Age II what will force them to do better, what will force any company to do better --not only in terms of quality, but public safety and security concerns in other industries? And maybe the game is of low quality and still sells well. What then? Ignore the genre altogether? What do you suggest? Smells wild capitalism to me.
The problem comes here: how do you define better? And, moreover, who defines what is and is not low quality. If a game is, in your opinion, low quality and still sells really well, why should your opinion get more weight than the people who obviously disagree?
The only thing that will drive a company to change is sales. If the sale go down, they reevaluate what caused that. Even then, the changes they make due to dwindling sales might not be the changes you deemed poor and they might change things you deemed good.
See how this whole discussion is moot since "better" and "quality" and "good" and "poor" are almost entirely in the eyes of the beholder?
I can't claim to know what you should do since you're so clearly disenchanted with this industry. And it is capitalism because the very nature of this industry is to supply the demand for a particular product.
That is the problem. The economy does not include the prerogative of addressing people's needs. Only supply and demand matter. Disenchanted is a good point. I truly don't see a way out of this. I also agree that they will prorabily make it worse while trying to "improve the next game". I don't trust them... I lost my faith in them.
Then why are you here? You offer no ways to make it better. You basically just complain and say they will make it worse. Just confused why you are even here. Besides to also attempt to call everyone that disagrees with you angry americans. When a bunch of Americans are probably still asleep.
Torax wrote...
This is all most likely cause Gaider didn't reply to him directly in the Plot Holes thread. The one where a bunch were mad that Leliana and Zevran were alive. You know cause they cut off Leliana's head.
Torax wrote...
Seena wrote...
Darth Krytie wrote...
Person thinks that David Gaider is the only person working at Bioware and all problems are belong to him. (deliberately poor grammar for those not getting the refence)
Person decides to call David Gaider out for comments made in forum, but also takes them out of context and finds whole novels in between the lines because I certainly never knew that's what David Gaider was really saying
Person thinks that the American attitude (which is a reference to some inherently negative thing about us poor sods) has infected the great nation of Canada and all those who reside within.
Person thinks that Imomen was only made a lesbian for straight male titilation and that person's fanfic is better than the published author of BG offical novels
Person thinks that they should be able to sue Bioware because DA2 wasn't exactly what they wanted.
Person thinks Sacred Cow as a phrase is somehow insulting all the people of Hindu faith.
Person thinks anyone who disagrees with person is insulting hir style and is a demogogue. For some reason. Because conflating this forum thread with politicians in Government makes some sort of sense. Maybe on a planet that is not this one.
Excellent synopsis Darth, thank-you.
It all just makes you go "wtf???"
But the REAL question is, why in earth does he think that David Gaider cares one cow's hairy whit whether he hates him or not?
????
This is all most likely cause Gaider didn't reply to him directly in the Plot Holes thread. The one where a bunch were mad that Leliana and Zevran were alive. You know cause they cut off Leliana's head.
For fun here is what posted then that didn't get a direct reply.Ksandor wrote...
I am not surprised with Mr. Gaider's reaction. He says “I am the writer, this is my prerogative, go pout, I win” (sorry about that Joker J). This is all too normal. He would never admit that his work in DA II is subpar. Admitting one’s mistakes is always emotionally difficult. Admitting something like that in public is not a sound career choice. And no company would like to see their employers confess something like that.
Besides why should he care about why people did not like his work in DA II? His mainstream work sells well enough to justify the quality level. He defends his work with the standard businessman relativist and stoic attitude. He says that our criticism is invalid because it is our preference, it is subjective and he does not care. But despite Mr. Gaider’s indifference we know that there are blatant continuity errors because of the time constraints imposed upon the creative staff and there are obvious plot holes in the game. Dismissing our claims by overanalyzing them won't change the truth.
One should ask himself: If I did this right why there are so many negative reactions? I know many games which are far better story wise. Baldur's Gate series and Mass Effect games are a testament to that. Gaider should look at BG Throne of Bhaal unofficial mod of his called Ascension to see how far he has fallen in quality. But he would not care about it. He is paid well by Bioware and EA (and believe me even if I don’t like DA II I wish him success in his career) and people still buy DA II copies. So he won't be compelled to do something better. He too knows this is not one of his best moments but trying to force him to admit that is pointless. Actually I think that Mr. Gaider is perfectly capable of doing much better, but as long as there is easy money to make… Well you get my point.
Of course they will find many people to sell this anachronistic medieval fantasy fiasco to replace the single sale (!) they lost because of me but I am a free man, I have my own opinion whether teenager fanboys who are policing this forum think me a jerk or not, I won't buy a game like this again. I don't want to waste my money on mediocre work.
And do you know why DA II is not half of that it should have been? This is because you would need more than 18 months to make a decent computer role playing game. It should take at least 2 years. As an insider and a professional game writer Mr. Gaider knows that very well too. If he had enough time he would excel himself. The only way to make Bioware and EA guys change their mind is to not buy such games. Do you see it happening anytime soon? Don’t think so.
Ksandor wrote...
Torax wrote...
Ksandor wrote...
Darth Krytie wrote...
Ksandor wrote...
And just a question. If the ultimate answer is "Don't like it? Don't buy it" then what? Beyond Dragon Age II what will force them to do better, what will force any company to do better --not only in terms of quality, but public safety and security concerns in other industries? And maybe the game is of low quality and still sells well. What then? Ignore the genre altogether? What do you suggest? Smells wild capitalism to me.
The problem comes here: how do you define better? And, moreover, who defines what is and is not low quality. If a game is, in your opinion, low quality and still sells really well, why should your opinion get more weight than the people who obviously disagree?
The only thing that will drive a company to change is sales. If the sale go down, they reevaluate what caused that. Even then, the changes they make due to dwindling sales might not be the changes you deemed poor and they might change things you deemed good.
See how this whole discussion is moot since "better" and "quality" and "good" and "poor" are almost entirely in the eyes of the beholder?
I can't claim to know what you should do since you're so clearly disenchanted with this industry. And it is capitalism because the very nature of this industry is to supply the demand for a particular product.
That is the problem. The economy does not include the prerogative of addressing people's needs. Only supply and demand matter. Disenchanted is a good point. I truly don't see a way out of this. I also agree that they will prorabily make it worse while trying to "improve the next game". I don't trust them... I lost my faith in them.
Then why are you here? You offer no ways to make it better. You basically just complain and say they will make it worse. Just confused why you are even here. Besides to also attempt to call everyone that disagrees with you angry americans. When a bunch of Americans are probably still asleep.
Sorry to wake you up from lucid dreams but please quote the exact phrase where I said everyone disagreeing with me are bunch of angry Americans." That is your invention for the last couple of hours.
And who are you ask me what I do here? Who are you say that only people making constructive criticism should be allowed here? That I have no right to state that I don't trust them anymore.
Seena wrote...
Torax wrote...
This is all most likely cause Gaider didn't reply to him directly in the Plot Holes thread. The one where a bunch were mad that Leliana and Zevran were alive. You know cause they cut off Leliana's head.
Cut off Leliana's head????
I must have missed that - had to have happened after our many rolls in the hay.
Seena wrote...
That is the problem. The economy does not include the prerogative of addressing people's needs. Only supply and demand matter. Disenchanted is a good point. I truly don't see a way out of this. I also agree that they will prorabily make it worse while trying to "improve the next game". I don't trust them... I lost my faith in them.
I can't speak for Canada - nor would I wish to.
But since you seem to be referencing the AMERICAN version of "supply and demand" here - in our country we value personal freedom. For all genders/races/ sexual orientations (well, we are working on this one).
As such, the INDIVDUAL decides what their needs are, then applys that need as the impetus for DEMAND.
They are inextricably intertwined.
We trust that individuals, should they have special "needs" are adept enough at navigating the sea of goods, to find the proper "niche" to supply said need.
Instead of expecting a major company to cater to your individual "needs" (read - demand), and then get frustrated when they do not - why not search out another source that will meet your "need" (read- demand) in a more satisfying way.
David Gaider wrote...
Ksandor wrote...
I am not surprised with Mr. Gaider's reaction. He says “I am the writer, this is my prerogative, go pout, I win”
Just a note that this is an unfair characterization of my response. I am not saying "go pout, I win". I am simply pointing out what I think should be obvious: that we are willing to make changes as we see fit, and that while some people may not like the idea of "retcons" (whether they are literal changes to past events or simply explanations for events that someone doesn't buy) they're going to happen. If someone wants to hold the opinion that not having every single choice carry forward as they expect ruins the credibility for all in-game reality... understood. I never claimed that reaction was invalid, or that anyone should "go pout".
It is, however, our perogative... and that is "our" and not just mine. I am the Lead Writer but I do not dictate everything about what a story will be. I know it is difficult for some to picture, but writing for a game is not like writing for a book. The story is only one element of a game and must work hand-in-hand with, and sometimes subservient to, the needs of other departments and their available resources. Pointing this out is not meant as arrogance, and I'd go so far as to suggest the only reason to suggest it's such is out of resentment... whether it's against me personally, the company or our decisions. Which is too bad.
At any rate, we're fully aware of the negative reactions, as I've already said. That does not disqualify the positive ones, nor the fact that we will move forward. If I'm going to occasionally pop in and mention when there's something that we will specifically do or not do in the future, you can either take that for what it is or ignore it. It's not meant as a personal attack, and having it responded to as such is a little disconcerting.
Take care.
Nialos wrote...
Ksandor wrote...
Torax wrote...
Ksandor wrote...
Darth Krytie wrote...
Ksandor wrote...
And just a question. If the ultimate answer is "Don't like it? Don't buy it" then what? Beyond Dragon Age II what will force them to do better, what will force any company to do better --not only in terms of quality, but public safety and security concerns in other industries? And maybe the game is of low quality and still sells well. What then? Ignore the genre altogether? What do you suggest? Smells wild capitalism to me.
The problem comes here: how do you define better? And, moreover, who defines what is and is not low quality. If a game is, in your opinion, low quality and still sells really well, why should your opinion get more weight than the people who obviously disagree?
The only thing that will drive a company to change is sales. If the sale go down, they reevaluate what caused that. Even then, the changes they make due to dwindling sales might not be the changes you deemed poor and they might change things you deemed good.
See how this whole discussion is moot since "better" and "quality" and "good" and "poor" are almost entirely in the eyes of the beholder?
I can't claim to know what you should do since you're so clearly disenchanted with this industry. And it is capitalism because the very nature of this industry is to supply the demand for a particular product.
That is the problem. The economy does not include the prerogative of addressing people's needs. Only supply and demand matter. Disenchanted is a good point. I truly don't see a way out of this. I also agree that they will prorabily make it worse while trying to "improve the next game". I don't trust them... I lost my faith in them.
Then why are you here? You offer no ways to make it better. You basically just complain and say they will make it worse. Just confused why you are even here. Besides to also attempt to call everyone that disagrees with you angry americans. When a bunch of Americans are probably still asleep.
Sorry to wake you up from lucid dreams but please quote the exact phrase where I said everyone disagreeing with me are bunch of angry Americans." That is your invention for the last couple of hours.
And who are you ask me what I do here? Who are you say that only people making constructive criticism should be allowed here? That I have no right to state that I don't trust them anymore.
I'm sure they've gotten the message by now about the trust issues. Point is, they're not going to listen to "I don't trust them". They're going to listen to, well. Constructive criticism. Anything else is more than likely to get a passing glance - which then kind of renders your entire letter wasted space.
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