176 réponses à ce sujet

[Ferretinabun]

Seriously, right up until she pulled out the demon-sword I was half on her side. Doing a mage Hawke I was siding with the mages to see how it would play out, but I couldn't help thinking she was in the right. Blood mages ARE everywhere in Kirkwall. If we take Anders as an abomination (which technically he is) then I felt pretty damn lonely as the only mage in Kirkwall who doesn't cut his palm the moment the going gets rough.
Bit disappointed with the demon-sword twist, really. It just seemed like a cheap ploy to turn one side into the Big Bad. Would have been much better to keep the mage-templar conflict as morally ambiguous as possible, imho...

[Torax]

No they were both big bads it seemed. She was a paranoid with supposedly the idol feeding off her hate/paranoia. Meanwhile there was Orsino and so many other mages clearly knowledgeable in Blood Magic. Like a melting pot. I think the only flaw was the "right of annulment" deal. Just because it puts the "Kill All Mages!" versus Orsino being able to still fake the saint.

[Maria Caliban]

Saying Meredith isn't insane because you agree with her is like saying someone isn't bipolar because you share political views with them.

Meredith is insane. She's had the idol of gooey-magical-brain-whacka-whacka for three years. Look at what happened to Bartrand, and his race is more resistant to the effects of lyrium than humans.

[Darth Krytie]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Saying Meredith isn't insane because you agree with her is like saying someone isn't bipolar because you share political views with them.

Meredith is insane. She's had the idol of gooey-magical-brain-whacka-whacka for three years. Look at what happened to Bartrand, and his race is more resistant to the effects of lyrium than humans.

I got the impression that Dwarves were actually more affected by the particular lyrium in the Idol than other races. When we're in Bartrand's house, Varric is the only one that starts going sorta batty in the party.


Otherwise, I agree. Meredith is nuts. However, I do not think the Idol made Meredith think the way she did. It only exacerbated things that were already there in her psyche.

[Robhuzz]

Ferretinabun wrote...

Seriously, right up until she pulled out the demon-sword I was half on her side. Doing a mage Hawke I was siding with the mages to see how it would play out, but I couldn't help thinking she was in the right. Blood mages ARE everywhere in Kirkwall. If we take Anders as an abomination (which technically he is) then I felt pretty damn lonely as the only mage in Kirkwall who doesn't cut his palm the moment the going gets rough.
Bit disappointed with the demon-sword twist, really. It just seemed like a cheap ploy to turn one side into the Big Bad. Would have been much better to keep the mage-templar conflict as morally ambiguous as possible, imho...

I pretty much agree with  you on most parts. I sided with the mages because I felt Meredith had no right to invoke the right of annulment because frankly, the circle hadn't done anything. I supported the mages only to find out there's hardly any NON bloodmages in kirkwall. To say meredith is not insane however would be going too far. Even before she fell completely under the power of the idol sword (or whatever the proper name is) she was completely paranoid in all of act 3. And even before that she ruled the mages with an iron fist, she should've known the mages would not take this abuse indefinetly. I wish she was more like greagoir -- He's cool:pinched:

Modifié par Robhuzz, 07 avril 2011 - 12:25 .

[Ferretinabun]

Okay, maybe calling the Right of Annulment for the chantry's destruction when the real culprit is standing right beside her is a tad on the whacko side (not to mention, rather funny), but I'd say her paranoia is pretty much justified given that blood mages crop up like cockroaches in DA2.
Plus, she has a damn sexy voice!

[Robhuzz]

Ferretinabun wrote...

Okay, maybe calling the Right of Annulment for the chantry's destruction when the real culprit is standing right beside her is a tad on the whacko side (not to mention, rather funny), but I'd say her paranoia is pretty much justified given that blood mages crop up like cockroaches in DA2.
Plus, she has a damn sexy voice!

I spotted a potential plot hole there. If you remember in DAO there was a templar in the elven alienage, able to sense the presence of demons and blood magic. How is it then that there were so many blood mages and demons in Kirkwall and none of the templars ever seemed to do something about it.

This is just a very difficult conflict because the mages will continue to use blood magic as they see it's the only way to win against the templars. And as long as mages turn to blood magic the templars will continue to purge them. It just seems like an endless cycle until mages either stop using blood magic or the templars stop caring (The latter is not going to happen and the former is also rather unlikely)

[Forst1999]

She was insane. People tend to forget that there were many mages in the circle. While we see lots of blood mages and mages becoming abominations to take their murderers with them, we also see enough mages who stay good even in the face of death. You know, we don't see normal mages on the street every day, because they stay locked up in the circle like good little prisoners. Invoking the Right of Annullment because of the deeds of an apostate wasn't justified, and her main motivation was "The people demand blood and I will give it to them!". That isn't her job! The templar's purpose is to protect the people from the mages AND the mages from the people. I her hybris she betrayed everything the templar order stands for.
To some degree i agree that the idol-sword was unneccessary. As was Orsino's sudden turn to blood magic and his cooperation with Quentin. The writers tried to make things a little more "gray", i think in this case they overdid it somewhat.

[Dr. Nexas]

Meredith was definitely crazy. The real question is how much did the idol affect her actions over the 3 years she had it? We know that Meredith was a rather unforgiving taskmaster before she got, but everyone admits that she kinda went off the deep end during the years after the Qunari attack.

[sylvanaerie]

Meredith was nucking futs before the idol got her, it just fed off that paranoia/hate. Once in a while you saw little snippets of 'this is a woman at the edge of her wits' in her dialogues where she would ask, "If you can offer no other alternatives, don't brand me a tyrant". Those sadly, were too few and too far spread apart to engender any sympathy for her 'plight'.
And at least in her brand of crazy she actually THOUGHT she was defending people from a dangerous threat (the blood mages).
The fact that Orsino was actively HIDING blood mages from her kind of pooched the deal for feeling any empathy for him. He practically boasts about hiding Quinton right to Hawke's face if you side Templars. He played one against the other so long, he was no saint either. Then he becomes this giant blood magic blob creature and you get to kill him.
At that point, neither side are angels/wrong/right more than the other. My Hawke's viewpoint is: Try to minimalize casualties and save her sibling (either as a templar or a Circle mage). Beyond that, hey, I'd lock them in the gallows and let them fight till they kill each other off. Game doesn't give you that option though so you have to choose one or the other. Frankly I got more satisfaction siding with the templars because you actually GET a cutscene where you can force her to spare some of the mages, and you can walk into a room where you see templars/mages all hiding/praying with each other.

[Icy Magebane]

Meredith was not insane before buying the idol... she may have been over-zealous, but it's her job to contain and control mages. Obviously some people are going to disagree with that, but it's not like she called for Annulment before things got out of her control. Hell, she didn't even suggest that as an option until long after getting the idol. She didn't do anything wrong IMO.

[Knightly_BW]

Idol's effect on Barthand and Meredith ain't same I think. Barthand was clearly mad and deillusional (hearing voices, killing everything etc.) until last moment Meredith still had some sanity. Her reply to Orsino's we are not all blood mages plead is a sign of that in my opinion; "I know and it breaks my heart". If she was that insane she wouldn't reply with that words or that tone. She is getting more obsessed each day that is true but her snapping point is right after Hawke and Cullen stand against her.

After each play through my idea of siding with templars is lesser evil of two choices getting stronger. Wheter you are a mage or other class there are plenty of reasons to side with templars. Only reason for siding with mages is fanatism. At least this is how I feel.

Modifié par Asperius, 07 avril 2011 - 12:55 .

[Rifneno]

If she wasn't insane, she was evil.  Period.  She allows countless abuses against her charges even in violation of the already questionable Chantry law (mages that pass their harrowing can't be made tranquil for the obvious one).  She comes down hard on any templar that dares question her methods, let alone any mage.  She blatantly uses the actions of an apostate as an excuse to murder every mage in Kirkwall the second she has the authority to do so.  Do remember the Wynne situation: this includes armed soldiers killing children who are begging for mercy!  She's a genocidal lunatic put in a position of near absolute power by a bunch of self-righteous zealots who use a single sentence of a long-dead martyr (who likely was a mage herself, I might add) to justify imprisoning, abusing, and often outright murdering a minority.  I can't even begin to wrap my mind around how people can think the templars aren't bad.  Even with real life politics, things I feel very strongly about I can see how the other side thinks the way they do.  I just don't see it here.  It truly astonishes me.

[Icy Magebane]

The Right of Annulment is not murder. It is part of their job to ensure that the world is safe from abominations, and it is the last resort when the Circle is compromised. Whatever prompted her initiation of the Right, be it the Idol or Anders, the Kirkwall Circle was clearly overrun with blood mages. Pretty much every mage you meet turns out to be willing to become an abomination when backed into a corner. She did what she had to do.

[Wulfram]

We see lots of mages who don't turn into abominations.  The thing is, they just die pretty quickly so we don't remember them.

Modifié par Wulfram, 07 avril 2011 - 01:39 .

[Rifneno]

Icy Magebane wrote...

The Right of Annulment is not murder. It is part of their job to ensure that the world is safe from abominations, and it is the last resort when the Circle is compromised. Whatever prompted her initiation of the Right, be it the Idol or Anders, the Kirkwall Circle was clearly overrun with blood mages. Pretty much every mage you meet turns out to be willing to become an abomination when backed into a corner. She did what she had to do.

Take it away Sten.

Sten:  No.

[The Sum of all Evil]

Icy Magebane wrote...

The Right of Annulment is not murder. It is part of their job to ensure that the world is safe from abominations, and it is the last resort when the Circle is compromised. Whatever prompted her initiation of the Right, be it the Idol or Anders, the Kirkwall Circle was clearly overrun with blood mages. Pretty much every mage you meet turns out to be willing to become an abomination when backed into a corner. She did what she had to do.

Pretty much every torrent user pirates sofware or music (assumption!), so let's jail them all...

[IanPolaris]

Icy Magebane wrote...

The Right of Annulment is not murder. It is part of their job to ensure that the world is safe from abominations, and it is the last resort when the Circle is compromised. Whatever prompted her initiation of the Right, be it the Idol or Anders, the Kirkwall Circle was clearly overrun with blood mages. Pretty much every mage you meet turns out to be willing to become an abomination when backed into a corner. She did what she had to do.

It's murder.  In fact it's genocide.  In fact when you see the battlescenes almot all of the mages within DO NOT become abominations and DO NOT use bloodmagic even when their lives depend on it.

Even using the Rite in Fereldan would have been wrong, but at least a very justifiable case there can be made that demons had taken over, the country was in peril,and thus extreme measures were needed.

At no time is there any suggestion that the mages in Kirkwall are any immediate threat to the city, the templars, or themselves after the Chantry is bombed.  Fact is Meridith practially dances with glee at the prospect of slaughtering mages and if you go pro-templar or listen to the Templar chats, you learn that she had been constantly asking for the Rite (and having Elthina turn her down) for a while.  Even Knight-Captain Cullen thinks the Rite is unjustified, and that's saying quite a lot.

-Polaris

[Plaintiff]

Blood Mages aren't everywhere in Kirkwall. It only takes a bit of critical thinking to realize they're the minority, and that they're driven to that course of action by the abuses of the templars. Of course you're going to see a lot, because the plot revolves around mage/templar conflict. But the majority of the mages in Kirkwall are well behaved, and thus irrelevent to the story.

If Meredith isn't insane, then why does she start flipping out on Cullen and screaming that her templars are under the influence of blood magic just because they disagree with her bat-**** crazy plan to slaughter all the mages?

Cullen, unlike Meredith, has seen first-hand the horror blood magic can cause and has endured mental torture at the hands of demons. The destruction and murder he witnessed was on a much larger scale than what happened to Meredith. If he thinks she's nuts, then she's nuts.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 07 avril 2011 - 02:01 .

[Icy Magebane]

So what's the answer? Let's keep in mind the destructive potential of mages... the fact that their minds can be enslaved by demonic entities whose only desire is to wreak havoc on the mortal world. Her personal feelings notwithstanding (would you blame a cop who enjoys arresting criminals?), it's clear to me that there are far more blood mages than people are willing to admit. Out of nowhere, Thrask's daughter becomes an abomination. The woman who was taking care of the orphaned Fereldens made a demonic pact. Let's not even get started on Grace and her allies. Do I need to bring Orsino himself into this? First time using blood magic... yeah okay. How about the secret research by Quentin that he funded? Don't pretend that these are isolated cases. They are proof that the Kirkwall Circle was corrupted and had been for a long time.

If anything, Cullen disagreed simply because he thought Meredith was becoming too extreme, but I don't remember him preventing Hawke from killing the "innocent" mages in Act 3. The Idol's influence was at play, making Meredith unstable, but this doesn't mean the Right of Annulment is somehow unethical. The Templars purge the entire Circle because leaving survivors would only invite revenge, and because it is not obvious who is or who isn't an abomination. So again I ask, what are you supposed to do... wait until somebody gets killed before you act?

[IanPolaris]

Plaintiff wrote...
If Meredith isn't insane, then why does she start flipping out on Cullen and screaming that her templars are under the influence of blood magic just because they disagree with her bat-**** crazy plan to slaughter all the mages?

You even see some foreshadowing of this very point.  If you sided with the Templars at the start of Act 3 AND did "On the Loose" pro-templar style (and having Meridith spare Emil is still considered pro-templar), then Meridith (not Orisino) will give you the quest, "Best Served Cold" and she gives it so you can find information implicating Orsino in a plot against her (which will be the final evidence she needs...or so she thinks..to have the Grand Cleric authorize a Rite of Annulment). 

In the end, after you do the quest, you tell her that she isn't popular and even many of her own templars have gone against her.  She responds that the only way Templars would abandon her would be by bloodmagic.

That's nuts....and at point well before the end of Act 3, even if you are pro-templar, you see she is LOOONEY TUNES.....

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Icy,

You might try what other societies do. Treat mages like human beings with a dangerous but useful gift that needs to be nutured, trained, and well regulated.

But no, the Chantry can't be bothered to treat mages like human beings......

-Polaris

[Icy Magebane]

Blood mages can dominate minds, and implant normal people with demons... as seen in act 1.

Also, there is no real-world equivalent to this so... what should I be basing my ideas on?  Nowhere on Earth will you find humans in any situation comparable to mages.

And one more thing... I never said that the abuses of the Kirkwall Templars were justified.  I said that the Right is appropriate in some instances.  The Ferelden Circle was a good example of how it should be.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 07 avril 2011 - 02:10 .