176 réponses à ce sujet

[Forst1999]

Icy Magebane wrote...

So what's the answer? Let's keep in mind the destructive potential of mages... the fact that their minds can be enslaved by demonic entities whose only desire is to wreak havoc on the mortal world. Her personal feelings notwithstanding (would you blame a cop who enjoys arresting criminals?), it's clear to me that there are far more blood mages than people are willing to admit. Out of nowhere, Thrask's daughter becomes an abomination. The woman who was taking care of the orphaned Fereldens made a demonic pact. Let's not even get started on Grace and her allies. Do I need to bring Orsino himself into this? First time using blood magic... yeah okay. How about the secret research by Quentin that he funded? Don't pretend that these are isolated cases. They are proof that the Kirkwall Circle was corrupted and had been for a long time.

Thrask's duaghter wasn't part of the circle, she hid her abilites (if i remember correctly). Either way, she was no blood mage, just a cornered girl trying to take her abusers with her. Evelina was driven crazy by being threatend like a criminal for turning herself in and asking for help for her orphans. Grace's group learned blood magic before they even got to Kirkwall, they are from Starkhaven. None of these is a proof for the irredeemable "corruption" of the circle.

Modifié par Forst1999, 07 avril 2011 - 02:12 .

[Plaintiff]

Icy Magebane wrote...

So what's the answer? Let's keep in mind the destructive potential of mages... the fact that their minds can be enslaved by demonic entities whose only desire is to wreak havoc on the mortal world. Her personal feelings notwithstanding (would you blame a cop who enjoys arresting criminals?), it's clear to me that there are far more blood mages than people are willing to admit. Out of nowhere, Thrask's daughter becomes an abomination. The woman who was taking care of the orphaned Fereldens made a demonic pact. Let's not even get started on Grace and her allies. Do I need to bring Orsino himself into this? First time using blood magic... yeah okay. How about the secret research by Quentin that he funded? Don't pretend that these are isolated cases. They are proof that the Kirkwall Circle was corrupted and had been for a long time.

If anything, Cullen disagreed simply because he thought Meredith was becoming too extreme, but I don't remember him preventing Hawke from killing the "innocent" mages in Act 3. The Idol's influence was at play, making Meredith unstable, but this doesn't mean the Right of Annulment is somehow unethical. The Templars purge the entire Circle because leaving survivors would only invite revenge, and because it is not obvious who is or who isn't an abomination. So again I ask, what are you supposed to do... wait until somebody gets killed before you act?

Just a point: it's established in Dragon Age lore that mages can be spontaneously possessed at moments of great emotional distress, without blood magic or willingly succumbing to a demon's offer. Thrask's daughter was being attacked and cruelly taunted by slavers. I'd say that counts.

And I am going to argue that the examples you listed are, indeed, isolated cases. The Gallows is a huge building and full of mages, and there is nothing to suggest that they have turned to blood magic or are possessed. The game isn't going to show you how most of the mages actually spend their free time knitting and organizing bake sales because that would make Dragon Age 2's plot extremely boring. The game encourages you to look beyond surface value and think critically about the issue.

And yes, I do think you should wait until somebody gets killed before taking action. There is no such thing as pre-emptive punishment. Do you kill a man because he might be a murderer?

[IanPolaris]

Forst1999 wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

So what's the answer? Let's keep in mind the destructive potential of mages... the fact that their minds can be enslaved by demonic entities whose only desire is to wreak havoc on the mortal world. Her personal feelings notwithstanding (would you blame a cop who enjoys arresting criminals?), it's clear to me that there are far more blood mages than people are willing to admit. Out of nowhere, Thrask's daughter becomes an abomination. The woman who was taking care of the orphaned Fereldens made a demonic pact. Let's not even get started on Grace and her allies. Do I need to bring Orsino himself into this? First time using blood magic... yeah okay. How about the secret research by Quentin that he funded? Don't pretend that these are isolated cases. They are proof that the Kirkwall Circle was corrupted and had been for a long time.

Thrask's duaghter wasn't part of the circle, she hid her abilites (if i remember correctly). Either way, she was no blood mage, just a cornered girl trying to take her abusers with her. Evelina was driven crazy by being threatend like a criminal for turning herself in and asking for help for her orphans. Grace's group learned blood magic before they even got to Kirkwall, they are from Starkhaven. None of these is a proof for the irredeemable "corruption" of the circle.

Not only that but Thrask's daughter clearly wasn't properly trained which added fuel to an already horrible situation.  No one on the pro-mage side is saying, "Let all mages loose without any restrictions at all".  That's a pro-Chantry strawman.  What the pro-mage people are saying is if you treat mages like human beings from the start and then humanly but carefully regulate magic from the start, tragedies like what happened to Thrask's daughter (or to Conner) need not happen.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 07 avril 2011 - 02:16 .

[CaimDark]

I never liked Meredith from the start. I always saw her as a bloodthirsty zealot with far more power than she should have, even if her intentions were "good" (as in "slaughter everyone because of the actions of a single rogue mage" good). The idol just pushed her over the edge. What was disappointing to me was the Orsino blood mage transformation even if you side with him. Seriously, that was just plain ridiculous. After everything that he went through, when he finally has the might of the Champion at his side and freedom is close he can taste it, he pretty much throws a tantrum, becomes an abomination and start attacking everyone in sight, even his fellow mages?!?!?!? What the heck!?!?!?

Someone (I think it was Laidlaw) said that they did it to prevent one side from being painted as the "good guys", but it was still ridiculous. We fight mad blood mages the entire game. We watch en elf murder her unsuspecting wife just to use her blood for magic. We lose our own freaking mother to a blood mage's madness. We get it, mages are no saints. Point taken. That whole Orsino thing really ruined the ending for me.

Modifié par CaimDark, 07 avril 2011 - 02:17 .

[Knightly_BW]

Plaintiff wrote...

Blood Mages aren't everywhere in Kirkwall. It only takes a bit of critical thinking to realize they're the minority, and that they're driven to that course of action by the abuses of the templars. Of course you're going to see a lot, because the plot revolves around mage/templar conflict. But the majority of the mages in Kirkwall are well behaved, and thus irrelevent to the story.

If Meredith isn't insane, then why does she start flipping out on Cullen and screaming that her templars are under the influence of blood magic just because they disagree with her bat-**** crazy plan to slaughter all the mages?

Cullen, unlike Meredith, has seen first-hand the horror blood magic can cause and has endured mental torture at the hands of demons. The destruction and murder he witnessed was on a much larger scale than what happened to Meredith. If he thinks she's nuts, then she's nuts.

Like Fenris says: Mages always find a reason to consort demons/blood magic and justify their means.

And Cullen is retconed. According to my most runs he went batty and killed mages then escaped. So comparing him with DA:O and DA 2 ones not really proving a point. In his current  Cullen is just a tool to make templars more sympathic to players because he already had a fangirl base from DA:O (points I want Cullen romance/companion threads).

Pfft and peoples say DA 2 has no story. Its story already divided playerbase in two. Pro templars & Pro mages, well done Bioware.

[highcastle]

Plaintiff wrote...
Just a point: it's established in Dragon Age lore that mages can be spontaneously possessed at moments of great emotional distress, without blood magic or willingly succumbing to a demon's offer. Thrask's daughter was being attacked and cruelly taunted by slavers. I'd say that counts.

And I am going to argue that the examples you listed are, indeed, isolated cases. The Gallows is a huge building and full of mages, and there is nothing to suggest that they have turned to blood magic or are possessed. The game isn't going to show you how most of the mages actually spend their free time knitting and organizing bake sales because that would make Dragon Age 2's plot extremely boring. The game encourages you to look beyond surface value and think critically about the issue.

And yes, I do think you should wait until somebody gets killed before taking action. There is no such thing as pre-emptive punishment. Do you kill a man because he might be a murderer?

I agree on most points, and also want to add that the Enigma of Kirkwall codex entries stress the Veil is unusually and intentionally thinner here than elsewhere in Thedas. That makes it easier for demons to slip through. I don't think we can take Kirkwall as an example of how mages in the rest of the world behave. And it makes sense we see largely the people who spiral out of control. There's no drama in meeting with nice, sane, well-adjusted mages who don't need anything from you at that time. Hawke only gets involved when there's a crisis.

And let's not forget Meredith calls for the Right after and because Anders blows up the Chantry. She wants to punish people he wasn't affiliated with for an act they didn't commit. Sounds insane to me, or at least like a failure of logic. Whatever your thoughts on the potential danger of mages, I don't see how killing people innocent of this crime is the right move in any circumstances.

[3zone5]

Icy Magebane wrote...

The Right of Annulment is not murder. It is part of their job to ensure that the world is safe from abominations, and it is the last resort when the Circle is compromised. Whatever prompted her initiation of the Right, be it the Idol or Anders, the Kirkwall Circle was clearly overrun with blood mages. Pretty much every mage you meet turns out to be willing to become an abomination when backed into a corner. She did what she had to do.

Meredith hates mages for alot more reason then just blood magic.
Her sister was a mage, parents shielded her from the chantry, sister goes abomination mode and kills her own partents and the entire village.

Hate is just one of the reasons why she invoked the right of Annulment she also suspected Orsino of being involved with blood magic, Tervinter Imperium and last but not least a mage blew up the chantry. Plenty of reason to invoke it, innocent or not...

She has seen countless mages turning to blood magic even when she wasn't yet Knight-Commander.
Her methods might not be subtle but she did her job nonetheless, it's more a convergence of circumstances that made her to what she is.
I say that she walked a thin line between sanity and insanity, the lyrium sword just pushed her over that line.
That way you can't talk her down.

Modifié par 3zone5, 07 avril 2011 - 02:20 .

[IanPolaris]

CaimDark wrote...

Someone (I think it was Laidlaw) said that they did it to prevent one side from being painted as the "good guys", but it was still ridiculous. We fight mad blood mages the entire game. We watch en elf murder her unsuspecting wife just to use her blood for magic. We lose our own freaking mother to a blood mage's madness. We get it, mages are no saints. Point taken. That whole Orsino thing really ruined the ending for me.

Indeed.  Like most of Act 3 that become Bloodmagic-Central, it was a heavy-handed and one-sided viewpoint of the mages which I believe was designed to try to demonize mages because too many sided with them in DAO.

Honestly, it's not a hard moral choice no matter what Bioware says, even if you are nominally pro-templar.  Meridith is slaughering dozens at least....and given there are two circles within (Kirkwall and Starkaven) perhaps even THOUSANDS of innocent people for a crime they did not commit.

That's evil.  Period.  End. Of. Discussion.

-Polaris

[Nashiktal]

At the point that the right of annulment is called, it is usually less of a slaughter, and more like a mini-war. (Save for this one. However we all know special circumstances are behind this one.) At that point the mages are not going back to templar hands, and even if they wished to they would probably be made tranquil.

[IanPolaris]

Asperius wrote...

Like Fenris says: Mages always find a reason to consort demons/blood magic and justify their means.

I would take anything Fenris says about magic with a grain of salt the size of Texas.  Fenris would blame magic for milk spoiling because he was abused by an Evil Magister.

It's very understandable and human of him, naturally, but honestly on this issue, Fenris is barely saner than Meridith.

-Polaris

[Forst1999]

Asperius wrote...


Like Fenris says: Mages always find a reason to consort demons/blood magic and justify their means.

Yes, and Fenris is a totally neutral party in this case .

And Cullen is retconed. According to my most runs he went batty and killed mages then escaped. So comparing him with DA:O and DA 2 ones not really proving a point. In his current  Cullen is just a tool to make templars more sympathic to players because he already had a fangirl base from DA:O (points I want Cullen romance/companion threads).

Epilgues seem to be only true if they don't contradict anything else, yes. But as it is now, i does prove a point. He IS DA:O Cullen, he DID suffer through all that happend, and he still is pretty reasonable.

Pfft and peoples say DA 2 has no story. Its story already divided playerbase in two. Pro templars & Pro mages, well done Bioware.

I agree. If a story becomes that polarizing, Bioware has done it right.

[IanPolaris]

Nashiktal wrote...

At the point that the right of annulment is called, it is usually less of a slaughter, and more like a mini-war. (Save for this one. However we all know special circumstances are behind this one.) At that point the mages are not going back to templar hands, and even if they wished to they would probably be made tranquil.

That isn't true.  Orsino pleads with Meridith to rescind the Rite even after conflict has started lest they tear the city apart and even completely gives in to all the Knight Commanders prior demands.

Meridith won't have it.  She has mages to kill and she makes it quite clear (no matter which said you take) that she wants every mage, everywhere (but certainly in Kirkwall) dead.  She nearly gets off on it (and I do mean sexually).  Seriously.  Look at her when she announces the rite and then tells you (pro-templar PC) that she's been waiting for this for a long time.

-Polaris

[Icy Magebane]

Huon was a blood mage and he escaped from the Kirkwall Circle. The First Enchanter funded and collaborated with a necromancer for half a decade if not longer. In the Templar version of the ending, you have to fight blood mages as well as Circle mages. There is also a mission regarding "Holdouts" that you can get from the Templars in Act 3 that deals with apostates who escaped the Circle and help others do so. They are all blood mages except for 2... so like 6 out of 8...

I'm not really sure what else to say about that. There were a lot of blood mages and abominations running around. A lot of demons that got summoned by people who either escaped or in the case of Grace, entered the Circle after learning blood magic. So... we're just going to assume she didn't share that knowledge with anybody? It didn't seem like it was a big secret to me.

And really, I have heard many times from mage supporters that absolute freedom is a good idea. That somehow the Chantry is too oppressive because they have Harrowings and use the Rite of Tranquility. I disagree completely. The Ferelden Circle was nothing like the Gallows, and even there the situation got so out of hand that had it not been for the Warden, Annulment would have been the only option. I agree that mages should be treated humanely, but they should not be left to their own devices. Especially when demonic possession can occur at any moment and cause a whole town to be wiped out. It's grim work, but necessary.

[Nashiktal]

IanPolaris wrote...

CaimDark wrote...

Someone (I think it was Laidlaw) said that they did it to prevent one side from being painted as the "good guys", but it was still ridiculous. We fight mad blood mages the entire game. We watch en elf murder her unsuspecting wife just to use her blood for magic. We lose our own freaking mother to a blood mage's madness. We get it, mages are no saints. Point taken. That whole Orsino thing really ruined the ending for me.

Indeed.  Like most of Act 3 that become Bloodmagic-Central, it was a heavy-handed and one-sided viewpoint of the mages which I believe was designed to try to demonize mages because too many sided with them in DAO.

Honestly, it's not a hard moral choice no matter what Bioware says, even if you are nominally pro-templar.  Meridith is slaughering dozens at least....and given there are two circles within (Kirkwall and Starkaven) perhaps even THOUSANDS of innocent people for a crime they did not commit.

That's evil.  Period.  End. Of. Discussion.

-Polaris

I agree with you on that point Ian. I am normally pro-templar, but the way they painted the Templar Commander just didn't leave much moral wiggle room.

They got close to making her sympathetic, like when she asks you to be a templar for a day. (This succeeded in making me more sympathetic to templars, who if they show mercy or sympathy it might lead to needless death.) However she just didn't have enough of that in comparison.

It was kinda the reverse for mages. While there were more rogue elements within the mages themselves, these were (mostly) painted as being caused by Meridith's tyranny, and that point is hammered home by the first enchanter. They better succeeded in showing how mages are a constant risk, but sometimes I think they would have done this better if they just went the warhammer 40k way of doing it, and making it where they don't have a choice in the manner whether or not a demon can take them.

Edit: I should note, that when I talk about the right, I am NOT talking about the one in DA2.

Modifié par Nashiktal, 07 avril 2011 - 02:28 .

[CaimDark]

I
Honestly, it's not a hard moral choice no matter what Bioware says, even if you are nominally pro-templar.  Meridith is slaughering dozens at least....and given there are two circles within (Kirkwall and Starkaven) perhaps even THOUSANDS of innocent people for a crime they did not commit.

That's evil.  Period.  End. Of. Discussion.

-Polaris

That's exactly how I felt. I played as a warrior, and not once did I even consider siding with the templars. There is just no way that enslaving mages because of what they might do can possibly be right.  People kill by the hundreds with swords and bow everyday, and yet no one says "let's lock up every human, elf and dwarf to make sure they don't cause any harm".

[Nashiktal]

CaimDark wrote...

I
Honestly, it's not a hard moral choice no matter what Bioware says, even if you are nominally pro-templar.  Meridith is slaughering dozens at least....and given there are two circles within (Kirkwall and Starkaven) perhaps even THOUSANDS of innocent people for a crime they did not commit.

That's evil.  Period.  End. Of. Discussion.

-Polaris

That's exactly how I felt. I played as a warrior, and not once did I even consider siding with the templars. There is just no way that enslaving mages because of what they might do can possibly be right.  People kill by the hundreds with swords and bow everyday, and yet no one says "let's lock up every human, elf and dwarf to make sure they don't cause any harm".

Oh don't bring up that debate again. Go to the proper theads for that one, thats not even what Ian was talking about.

[CaimDark]

Pfft and peoples say DA 2 has no story. Its story already divided playerbase in two. Pro templars & Pro mages, well done Bioware.

I agree. If a story becomes that polarizing, Bioware has done it right.

Indeed. The game was quite a letdown for me in more ways than one, including the story, but saying it has no story is pushing it. This is my first time in the spoilers forum, and I did not realize people were so split on this issue... much like Kirwall itself. On this point at least the writers must be pleased!

[Lemmy Kil Hawke]

Meredith was an egomaniac controling freak. So it was up to old Hawke to end her misery

[Icy Magebane]

@CaimDark: You should read some of the older threads then... people are split on lots of issues... it's pretty cool to hear their viewpoints.

[IanPolaris]

Icy,

No one is saying that mages should be left to their own devices. That's a chantry/templar strawman argument. What I am saying is that first and foremost mages have to be treated as HUMAN BEINGS with a special (and yes dangerous) gift. Treating a person like a human being is inconsistant with locking them away and then throwing away the key. Huon is a perfect example. When he is captured he is an apparently fairly ordinary elf with a loving wife. After ten years, he is an Elven Version of Dahlmer. Evaline is the same way.

Regulate and control magic, yes, but there are all sorts of examples in the world that say there are better and more human ways (that actually seem to work better! Shocker that.)

-Polaris

[Mystranna Kelteel]

CaimDark wrote...
That's exactly how I felt. I played as a warrior, and not once did I even consider siding with the templars. There is just no way that enslaving mages because of what they might do can possibly be right.  People kill by the hundreds with swords and bow everyday, and yet no one says "let's lock up every human, elf and dwarf to make sure they don't cause any harm".

Imagine of someone was born with a sword / gun / bomb biologically grafted to their arm.

You better believe people would take safety measures to protect society.  And that's the role of the Templars: to protect society.  Magic exists, period, and it's up to the individual to decide how to use their power.  However, it is up to society to protect the innocent from those mages who choose to use their power irresponsibly.

The system is far from perfect, but the Templars are not merely evil slavers who love killing mages.  Yeah, some Templars are complete douche bags, but so are some mages.

You end up killing upstanding Templars who are merely doing their duty and following orders in siding with the mages.  You end up killing upstanding and innocent mages in siding with the Templars.  If you make the decision from a purely moral standpoint you'll probably end up with the mages.  If you think about the situation practically you should be able to see that containing the mage situation is most likely a better solution than starting a holy war and promoting mage anarchy.  You're only going to bring more Templars down on your heads.  At least in siding with the Templars you can try to control the situation and prevent further chaos.

[Rifneno]

Icy Magebane wrote...

So what's the answer? Let's keep in mind the destructive potential of mages... the fact that their minds can be enslaved by demonic entities whose only desire is to wreak havoc on the mortal world. Her personal feelings notwithstanding (would you blame a cop who enjoys arresting criminals?),

That may be the worst analogy I have ever seen.  Congratulations.

it's clear to me that there are far more blood mages than people are willing to admit.

Loose translation:  I say there's more blood mages than you do, accept it.

No.

Out of nowhere, Thrask's daughter becomes an abomination. The woman who was taking care of the orphaned Fereldens made a demonic pact. Let's not even get started on Grace and her allies. Do I need to bring Orsino himself into this? First time using blood magic... yeah okay. How about the secret research by Quentin that he funded? Don't pretend that these are isolated cases. They are proof that the Kirkwall Circle was corrupted and had been for a long time.

The Kirkwall Circle was built on an indian burial ground, which was built on the site of human sacrifices to the god of evil, which were performed using the fang of the serpent that got Adam and Even kicked out of the Garden of Eden, using the tears of raped orphans for glue.  It is the epicenter of crazy and it WILL drive mages to either insanity of evil.  The only reason a lot of the good mages we see, IMO this even includes Bethany, haven't turned bad is because they weren't exposed to it long enough yet.  Which leaves us with one question.  Who has been gathering innocent mages from all over the Free Marches and locking them in a place guaranteed to turn them into ticking time bombs of horror?  THE TEMPLARS!

If anything, Cullen disagreed simply because he thought Meredith was becoming too extreme, but I don't remember him preventing Hawke from killing the "innocent" mages in Act 3.

Take the Tranquil Solution papers to Cullen sometime.  In fact, don't bother.  I'll save you the time with a transcript.

Hawke: Your Ser Alrik was working on a plan to turn all mages tranquil.
Cullen: I will not ask how you came by the personal effects of a man recently murdered within our own walls. It's true there has been some discussion of the idea. But as you can see, it has gone no further than that.
Anders: You expect us to believe that?
Cullen: Believe what you like, mage. (Note: LOL's at Cullen acknowledging plot armor) The Harrowing has served us well enough for centuries. It will be up to mages themselves whether they push us to more stringent measures.
Dialogue option: "Do you approve of the plan?"
Hawke: It sounds like you support this.
Cullen: The Tranquil ritual was created as a mercy so that mages need not be killed out of hand for a threat they might pose. There is an argument to be made for applying it more widely.
Anders: Are you going to listen to this? He's no better than Ser Alrik.
Cullen: Do you think it's easy to contain a mage who truly wants to deal with demons? We have done our best. But many mages have made it clear they view the ritual as no better than death. They want no controls on them at all.

Basically "I think Ser Rapist was onto something.  But these whiners just put up the biggest fight about having their souls stolen."  I can't believe people actually think this waste of life is an example of a good templar.  I'm still depressed there's no way to murderknife him.

The Idol's influence was at play, making Meredith unstable, but this doesn't mean the Right of Annulment is somehow unethical. The Templars purge the entire Circle because leaving survivors would only invite revenge, and because it is not obvious who is or who isn't an abomination. So again I ask, what are you supposed to do... wait until somebody gets killed before you act?

YES.  That is EXACTLY what you're supposed to do!  If you kill an innocent person for a crime you think they might do, you might as well endorse widescale bombing of every slum in the world because after all poor people turn to crime all the time.

[Nashiktal]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

CaimDark wrote...
That's exactly how I felt. I played as a warrior, and not once did I even consider siding with the templars. There is just no way that enslaving mages because of what they might do can possibly be right.  People kill by the hundreds with swords and bow everyday, and yet no one says "let's lock up every human, elf and dwarf to make sure they don't cause any harm".

Imagine of someone was born with a sword / gun / bomb biologically grafted to their arm.

You better believe people would take safety measures to protect society.  And that's the role of the Templars: to protect society.  Magic exists, period, and it's up to the individual to decide how to use their power.  However, it is up to society to protect the innocent from those mages who choose to use their power irresponsibly.

The system is far from perfect, but the Templars are not merely evil slavers who love killing mages.  Yeah, some Templars are complete douche bags, but so are some mages.

You end up killing upstanding Templars who are merely doing their duty and following orders in siding with the mages.  You end up killing upstanding and innocent mages in siding with the Templars.  If you make the decision from a purely moral standpoint you'll probably end up with the mages.  If you think about the situation practically you should be able to see that containing the mage situation is most likely a better solution than starting a holy war and promoting mage anarchy.  You're only going to bring more Templars down on your heads.  At least in siding with the Templars you can try to control the situation and prevent further chaos.

A fair and balanced view. Although I would say the Circle's are in need of a reform myself.

[Icy Magebane]

IanPolaris wrote...

Icy,

No one is saying that mages should be left to their own devices. That's a chantry/templar strawman argument. What I am saying is that first and foremost mages have to be treated as HUMAN BEINGS with a special (and yes dangerous) gift. Treating a person like a human being is inconsistant with locking them away and then throwing away the key. Huon is a perfect example. When he is captured he is an apparently fairly ordinary elf with a loving wife. After ten years, he is an Elven Version of Dahlmer. Evaline is the same way.

Regulate and control magic, yes, but there are all sorts of examples in the world that say there are better and more human ways (that actually seem to work better! Shocker that.)

-Polaris

I just don't see an alternative to the Right of Annulment once the Circle has been compromised.  What you're saying makes perfect sense, but things were well past that point... even the First Enchanter was a blood mage.  I mean, yeah, innocent mages were going to die, but you'd also be killing mages who were simply hiding the fact that they'd bonded with a demon.  The Circle mages knew from the start what the consequences were if blood magic became that common... it's not like they don't know about the Right from the start.  So if a few bad apples spoil the bunch... I don't know what else you can do at that point.

Edit:  Deleted a response to something, but nevermind... I don't need to encourage that guy...

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 07 avril 2011 - 02:53 .

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Rifneno wrote...
Basically "I think Ser Rapist was onto something.  But these whiners just put up the biggest fight about having their souls stolen."  I can't believe people actually think this waste of life is an example of a good templar.  I'm still depressed there's no way to murderknife him.

That's quite a twist of words.

Cullen is saying that a mage who really wants to deal with demons poses an enormous threat, and that an argument can be made for taking more extreme measures to eliminate that risk.  Coming from a man who was tortured for days/weeks by that same kind of mage, that's not an unreasonable position to take.  Not that he took Alrik's side to begin with.

I mean, I could bring up all the good things Cullen does, sparing mages who surrender and all, but this isn't about presenting him in a fair or balanced light; this is about comparing him to a rapist to try and make him look as evil as possible to justify your extreme "I wanna kill him" view.