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[The Angry One]

AlexXIV wrote...

I think what he means is that you cannot judge people on their cultural or racial background. Whatever the Tevinter Empire did, isn't the fault of a newborn baby that happens to be born a mage. Easy as that. That mages are dangerous and a problem for all of Thedas is undisputed. Just the question is how to deal with it. Treating innocents like criminals can't be the best answer people can come up with, honestly.

DA2 doesn't make that easy when 90% of those "innocents" turn out to be murdering blood mage sor worse, though.

[AlexXIV]

The Angry One wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

I think what he means is that you cannot judge people on their cultural or racial background. Whatever the Tevinter Empire did, isn't the fault of a newborn baby that happens to be born a mage. Easy as that. That mages are dangerous and a problem for all of Thedas is undisputed. Just the question is how to deal with it. Treating innocents like criminals can't be the best answer people can come up with, honestly.

DA2 doesn't make that easy when 90% of those "innocents" turn out to be murdering blood mage sor worse, though.

We only get to see those that turn to bloodmagic. That doesn't mean that the others don't exist. Again, I am not against treating criminals like criminals. I am against treating innocents as criminals just because there is a chance they could be criminals or could become criminals.

I am not even against the Circles. Mage Circles seem to be a good idea. Just don't let them be 'protected' by sadistic mage haters. And it would probably be a good idea to not put them, of all places, where the veil is thinnest.

[The Angry One]

AlexXIV wrote...

We only get to see those that turn to bloodmagic. That doesn't mean that the others don't exist.

Well that's the problem. The story is skewed in favour of showing the bad mages unless they're called Bethany.

Again, I am not against treating criminals like criminals. I am against treating innocents as criminals just because there is a chance they could be criminals or could become criminals.

I am not even against the Circles. Mage Circles seem to be a good idea. Just don't let them be 'protected' by sadistic mage haters. And it would probably be a good idea to not put them, of all places, where the veil is thinnest.

Yes well keeping a Circle in the Gallows is a ridiculously stupid idea.
Then again two of the game's most psychotic blood mages are from Starkhaven.

[Rifneno]

AlexXIV wrote...
I think what he means is that you cannot judge people on their cultural or racial background. Whatever the Tevinter Empire did, isn't the fault of a newborn baby that happens to be born a mage. Easy as that. That mages are dangerous and a problem for all of Thedas is undisputed. Just the question is how to deal with it. Treating innocents like criminals can't be the best answer people can come up with, honestly.

Exactly.  You can't use one evil empire's actions as a reason to brutally oppress a minority in a different culture that happens to share a genetic trait.

Yes, Tevinter is terrible.  But there have been plenty of real life evil empires.  People in power sometimes abuse it.  Sometimes to jawdroppingly horrific extremes.  It has nothing to do with magic, it has to do with human nature.  C'mon people.  I can see how people in a setting like Thedas can make this misunderstanding but how is it being made today?

The Angry One wrote...

DA2 doesn't make that easy when 90% of those "innocents" turn out to be murdering blood mage sor worse, though.

It does when you factor in that the entire game takes place in a vortex of insanity thanks to the Tevinters.  How many mages do we encounter that turned evil without exposure to Kirkwall's wet paper towel of a veil?  I can think of one.  Decimus.  We suspect Grace, but we don't really know for sure.

[LobselVith8]

barryl89 wrote...

One word sums up the argument against letting mages be free.

TEVINTER.

You mean like the Dalish clans? The Chasind Wilders? The seers of Rivain? Even the morally bankrupt town of Haven? None of those societies are trying to emulate the Tevinter Imperium, and they have free mages residing without Chantry or templar control.

[Nashiktal]

Honestly Rivain might not be the best example. A chunk of their population follows the Qun. Not the best place for mages to be.

[The Angry One]

Nashiktal wrote...

Honestly Rivain might not be the best example. A chunk of their population follows the Qun. Not the best place for mages to be.

Depends on how rigidly they interpret it.
Apparently the only reason they follow the Qun is that it's philosophies already matched their traditional beliefs.

[AlexXIV]

Nashiktal wrote...

Honestly Rivain might not be the best example. A chunk of their population follows the Qun. Not the best place for mages to be.

It at least seems to be a place where different cultures live together relatively peacefully. I am curious in how much the Qun actually demands that everyone who doesn't follow it dies. Maybe it is like with real life religions where people interpret things different than the author maybe intended.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 07 avril 2011 - 05:45 .

[Nashiktal]

AlexXIV wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Honestly Rivain might not be the best example. A chunk of their population follows the Qun. Not the best place for mages to be.

It at least seems to be a place where different cultures live together relatively peacefully. I am curious in how much the Qun actually demands that everyone who doesn't follow it dies. Maybe it is like with real life religions where people interpret things different than the author maybe intended.

Peacefully? There was a near genocide there because of differences in belief. Those who followed the Qun were slaughtered for a time before the Qunari threatened to invade again if they didn't stop.

Rivain violated the peace treaty between Thedas and Qunari. 

Modifié par Nashiktal, 07 avril 2011 - 05:49 .

[AlexXIV]

Nashiktal wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Honestly Rivain might not be the best example. A chunk of their population follows the Qun. Not the best place for mages to be.

It at least seems to be a place where different cultures live together relatively peacefully. I am curious in how much the Qun actually demands that everyone who doesn't follow it dies. Maybe it is like with real life religions where people interpret things different than the author maybe intended.

Peacefully? There was a near genocide there because of differences in belief. Those who followed the Qun were slaughtered for a time before the Qunari threatened to invade again if they didn't stop.

Rivain violated the peace treaty between Thedas and Qunari. 

Ah well I didn't know that. I am rather bad with codexes. Maybe not that peaceful then.

[CaimDark]

For some reason people who believe the Templar's genocide was justified insist on saying that the Templars are necessary to protect society and that mages can not be allowed to have complete freedom even though, as far as I can tell, most if not all of us who take the mage's side already made it clear that we do agree on both counts...

[KJandrew]

In my mind Meredith was insane. Greigor was a good Knight-Commander in my mind. He didn't shirk from his duty and at the same time he trusted Irving and had faith in some of the mages.

[Nashiktal]

Pro Templar but anti-Meridith seems to be the general consensus.

Edit: Erm, among pro templars.

Modifié par Nashiktal, 07 avril 2011 - 06:22 .

[CaimDark]

KJandrew wrote...

In my mind Meredith was insane. Greigor was a good Knight-Commander in my mind. He didn't shirk from his duty and at the same time he trusted Irving and had faith in some of the mages.

Good point, I'd completely forgotten about Gregoir. He and Meredith are worlds apart. When Uldred struck at Ferelden's Circle, Gregoir was ready to to purge the circle but only if absolutely necessary, and he gave the remaining mages time  to try and sort things out before invoking the rite. Meredith, on the other hand seems to actively look for excuses to murder mages and somehow decided that slaughtering every single mage in the city was the right thing to do even though the culprit, besides having absolutely no affiliation with the circle whatsoever, essentially stood in front of everyone and shouted I DID IT!!

But this is all besides the point. The real question here is: why the heck does Meredith looks like a schoolgirl?!?!

[Cutlass Jack]

CaimDark wrote...

But this is all besides the point. The real question here is: why the heck does Meredith looks like a schoolgirl?!?!

I'm not sure I want to know where you went to school...

[Rinji the Bearded]

Meredith made good templars look bad.
Orsino/Anders made good mages look bad.

Not a really pretty picture either way.

[CaimDark]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

CaimDark wrote...

But this is all besides the point. The real question here is: why the heck does Meredith looks like a schoolgirl?!?!

I'm not sure I want to know where you went to school...

Lol, it's her hair. I just can't help but picture a schoolgirl whenever I look at her. Maybe that's why I did not side with her in the first place, I could never bring myself to take her seriously...

[nicethugbert]

It's obvious that not all mages are blood mages because the mage encounters have both Apostate and Blood Mage clearly labeled and they have different attacks.

[CaimDark]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Meredith made good templars look bad.
Orsino/Anders made good mages look bad.

Not a really pretty picture either way.

The problem is that no one is advocating exterminating every templar because of Meredith or even Alrik, but apparently Anders making mages look bad is enough to exterminate them all:(

[The Angry One]

CaimDark wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

Meredith made good templars look bad.
Orsino/Anders made good mages look bad.

Not a really pretty picture either way.

The problem is that no one is advocating exterminating every templar because of Meredith or even Alrik, but apparently Anders making mages look bad is enough to exterminate them all:(

Take away a Templar's sword and their lyrium, and they are nothing.
Take away a mage's staff and they can still blow you up.

[CaimDark]

The Angry One wrote...
Take away a Templar's sword and their lyrium, and they are nothing.
Take away a mage's staff and they can still blow you up.

Which brings us to the original point: where is the justice in murdering someone because of something they MIGHT do? Imagine yourself being born a mage, you just want to live in peace and be left alone, then some psycho you've never even heard of comes along, blows up the grand cleric and suddenly every templar in town is out to kill you. Would you still be so understanding?

[Iosev]

Someone without a sword or lyrium can still be a murderer, just as someone commanding magic can be a benevolent healer.

Modifié par arcelonious, 07 avril 2011 - 06:47 .

[The Angry One]

CaimDark wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
Take away a Templar's sword and their lyrium, and they are nothing.
Take away a mage's staff and they can still blow you up.

Which brings us to the original point: where is the justice in murdering someone because of something they MIGHT do? Imagine yourself being born a mage, you just want to live in peace and be left alone, then some psycho you've never even heard of comes along, blows up the grand cleric and suddenly every templar in town is out to kill you. Would you still be so understanding?

I would subsequently find out the First Enchanter is a blood mage and necromancer and realise the Circle was completely forfeit anyway.
You act like it's *just* Anders even though the Right was being sent for before the Chantry blew up.

[Avissel]

The Angry One wrote...

I would subsequently find out the First Enchanter is a blood mage and necromancer and realise the Circle was completely forfeit anyway.
You act like it's *just* Anders even though the Right was being sent for before the Chantry blew up.

Was it? I thought she just wanted to search the tower of Blood Mages and called for the Right when the Chantry went boom?

[Nashiktal]

I'd like to see someone without a swrord or lyrium rend your body from the inside out with your own blood, then use said blood to summon demons which go on a genocidal killing spree and causing havoc that most normal soldiers can't possibly stop.

Look we get it. Locking up mages for just being mages is bad. However you have to admit it's just a little bit different than some random cutthroat with a knife. Especially considering most modern ways of killing people in mass are not accessible to the public, unlike today where you can order the parts for a bomb online.