176 réponses à ce sujet

[Rifneno]

Nashiktal wrote...

I'd like to see someone without a swrord or lyrium rend your body from the inside out with your own blood, then use said blood to summon demons which go on a genocidal killing spree and causing havoc that most normal soldiers can't possibly stop.

Look we get it. Locking up mages for just being mages is bad. However you have to admit it's just a little bit different than some random cutthroat with a knife. Especially considering most modern ways of killing people in mass are not accessible to the public, unlike today where you can order the parts for a bomb online.

Wait, what?  You say it's different than mundane weapons but then right afterwards point out that in modern times any jackass can build equally dangerous stuff (Timothy McVeigh anyone?) and generally speaking we're safer than any point in history?  Which side are you taking?

[Paraxial]

Meredith might have been sane prior to getting the idol, but it was game over once she got her hands on it.

[The Angry One]

Avissel wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

I would subsequently find out the First Enchanter is a blood mage and necromancer and realise the Circle was completely forfeit anyway.
You act like it's *just* Anders even though the Right was being sent for before the Chantry blew up.

Was it? I thought she just wanted to search the tower of Blood Mages and called for the Right when the Chantry went boom?

See my pic on the 4th page.

[CaimDark]

The Angry One wrote...

CaimDark wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
Take away a Templar's sword and their lyrium, and they are nothing.
Take away a mage's staff and they can still blow you up.

Which brings us to the original point: where is the justice in murdering someone because of something they MIGHT do? Imagine yourself being born a mage, you just want to live in peace and be left alone, then some psycho you've never even heard of comes along, blows up the grand cleric and suddenly every templar in town is out to kill you. Would you still be so understanding?

I would subsequently find out the First Enchanter is a blood mage and necromancer and realise the Circle was completely forfeit anyway.
You act like it's *just* Anders even though the Right was being sent for before the Chantry blew up.

Again, we're back at the "killing mages for something they may or may not do part". When Meredith invoked the rite, it was just Anders, plain and simple. Orsino had not done anything yet to the best of everyone's knowledege. Saying it is alright because he later turned to blood magic anyways is like locking up a guy because he is a "potential murderer", and then later said guy ends up killing some other guy in a jail fight and you go like "see, I knew he was murderer".

[The Angry One]

CaimDark wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

CaimDark wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
Take away a Templar's sword and their lyrium, and they are nothing.
Take away a mage's staff and they can still blow you up.

Which brings us to the original point: where is the justice in murdering someone because of something they MIGHT do? Imagine yourself being born a mage, you just want to live in peace and be left alone, then some psycho you've never even heard of comes along, blows up the grand cleric and suddenly every templar in town is out to kill you. Would you still be so understanding?

I would subsequently find out the First Enchanter is a blood mage and necromancer and realise the Circle was completely forfeit anyway.
You act like it's *just* Anders even though the Right was being sent for before the Chantry blew up.

Again, we're back at the "killing mages for something they may or may not do part". When Meredith invoked the rite, it was just Anders, plain and simple. Orsino had not done anything yet to the best of everyone's knowledege. Saying it is alright because he later turned to blood magic anyways is like locking up a guy because he is a "potential murderer", and then later said guy ends up killing some other guy in a jail fight and you go like "see, I knew he was murderer".

Killing is never "alright", the Right is justified because the circle is full of uncontrollable blood mages, abominations and worse.

[Rifneno]

Bible Doctor wrote...

Meredith might have been sane prior to getting the idol, but it was game over once she got her hands on it.

Agreed.  I think she was probably sane, albiet extremely strict with the mages.  Pre-idol Meredith gave Alrik a classic Sten "No." on his tranquil solution.  Post-idol Meredith wants to annul the Circle so bad she's willing to go over Elthina's head when Elthina says no.

The Angry One wrote...

See my pic on the 4th page.

And bless you for that piece of awesome "Meredith is a crazy witch" evidence.

[Avissel]

I guess I never talked to him in Act 3 enough to get that. His Muttonchops are off putting.

[CaimDark]

Except the one deciding whether or not to invoke the Rite shows total contempt for a mage's life AND was driven even madder by a magic artifact. And yet that still makes it justified?

[Hawke123]

I've seen people mention the whole blood mages thing came about because too many people sided with mages in DA:O.

I think all should have sided with the mages to be honest.
It was pretty much racism with a fantasy twist.

Mages were seen as evil because of their tremendous power and must be killed. The type of person an individual mage is and the background of them are never taken into account, they are apparently just evil.

The same happens with Racism in real life. Apparently the colour of someones skin is something you should judge, not their personality.

So really, I believe Meredith was crazy. She hated and killed mages on the belief that all were evil, despite the fact that a Templar could be a worse person than a Mage.

[Cutlass Jack]

Hey all I know is every time I gave a mage the benefit of the doubt the entire game (including siding with them at the end) they bit me in the arse. And not in the fun way.

The only two exceptions were Bethany and Emile. (who only said he was a blood mage to pick up chicks)

So while Meredith is indeed crazy, the Mages aren't really helping themselves any.

[The Angry One]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

and Emile. (who only said he was a blood mage to pick up chicks)

And DuPuis said he was tracking Quentin because his sister was killed by him.
Never trust a mage!

[PPR223]

The only insane thing Meredith did, was to try and kill Hawke.

Modifié par PPR223, 07 avril 2011 - 07:39 .

[Avissel]

The Angry One wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

and Emile. (who only said he was a blood mage to pick up chicks)

And DuPuis said he was tracking Quentin because his sister was killed by him.
Never trust a mage!

I think the only totally trustworth source in the whole series is the murder knife. He has yet to lie to or trick me.

I call mine Terrance.

[Nashiktal]

Rifneno wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

I'd like to see someone without a swrord or lyrium rend your body from the inside out with your own blood, then use said blood to summon demons which go on a genocidal killing spree and causing havoc that most normal soldiers can't possibly stop.

Look we get it. Locking up mages for just being mages is bad. However you have to admit it's just a little bit different than some random cutthroat with a knife. Especially considering most modern ways of killing people in mass are not accessible to the public, unlike today where you can order the parts for a bomb online.

Wait, what?  You say it's different than mundane weapons but then right afterwards point out that in modern times any jackass can build equally dangerous stuff (Timothy McVeigh anyone?) and generally speaking we're safer than any point in history?  Which side are you taking?

I'm not so much on a side rather than annoyed at how people can't seem to tell that a blood mage is just a teensy bit different than your neighbor going crazy with a dagger.

I often see pro-mage's using the excuse that we don't lock people up today just because they COULD build a bomb. So that was me commenting on how it is unlikely some random schmoe in thedas could kill a few thousand people without special circumnstances. (Poison the watersupply? Time and effort. Set the city on fire? Fire isn't as big of a danger to the city considering it is made of magic carved stone. 'the stone itself isn't magic')

While a mage can be tricked, or seduced by a demon at any time. Wandering in the marketplace, sleeping in bed, eating dinner with friends.

I don't think mages should be treated like prisoners, but they sure as hell shouldn't be without some sort of watchmen. 

[The Angry One]

Avissel wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

and Emile. (who only said he was a blood mage to pick up chicks)

And DuPuis said he was tracking Quentin because his sister was killed by him.
Never trust a mage!

I think the only totally trustworth source in the whole series is the murder knife. He has yet to lie to or trick me.

I call mine Terrance.

I call mine Mr. Stabby.
I'm not terribly imaginative.

[Nashiktal]

My murderknife is called shankwall. I can't help it, i'm a sucker for themes.

[Dasha Dreyson]

My rogue/warrior Hawkes would have to call theirs Carver. You know, for the bad pun.

Edit: Oh topic!  I think Meredith had her own view of things and didn't have room for any alternate ideas. Whether she was crazy or not, she was stubborn once she decided on something. She was not willing to change her mind, in my opinion.

Modifié par Dasha Dreyson, 07 avril 2011 - 08:04 .

[Beerfish]

CaimDark wrote...


Again, we're back at the "killing mages for something they may or may not do part". When Meredith invoked the rite, it was just Anders, plain and simple. Orsino had not done anything yet to the best of everyone's knowledege. Saying it is alright because he later turned to blood magic anyways is like locking up a guy because he is a "potential murderer", and then later said guy ends up killing some other guy in a jail fight and you go like "see, I knew he was murderer".

Just Anders?  Are you forgetting the 1001 abominations, blood mages and mage killers throughout the whole story before Anders adds the icing to the cake by blowing up the Chantry and then Orsino putting the cherry on top?

Hey, it sucks to be mage.
It really sucks to be a mage in Kirkwall.
If asking for the right of annulment is not at least a relevant thing to request in this instance then there never is one.  Orsino was rather funny bleating about the injustice when he dabbled in and then went full force into blood magic and consorted with and helped a deranged serial killer.

[Psython]

Does anyone remember the slave revolts in the 19th century USA? Obviously, slaves were often poorly treated and thought to be dangerous animals too inept to govern themselves. Occasionally, all the mistreatment would lead to violence against slave owners. The result of this was that the white leadership sent out public newsletters stating how slaves are disasters waiting to happen and must not be put in any position of power.

Of course, all the violence (which was heavily sensationalized) was caused by the systematic repression and mistreatment of africans for centuries. As we know today, people of African descent are not evil by nature or predisposed to violence. It was the environmental conditions and manipulations by white slave owners that manifested the popular ideas about slaves. This is similar to the situation with the mages and templars.

Mages are forced against their will into a life of utter domination and repression from normal impulses like love etc. Ocassionally, a mage realizes the injustice after watching a friend get raped or murdered by the templars and turns to blood magic out of desperation. The violence is then sensationalized by the templars as evidence that mages are little more than destructive weapons that must be removed from society. In a way, the templars create their own monsters and use it as evidence to support their own corrupt power structure. Blood magic is a last resort used by desperate people whos emotions make them weak to the predatory nature of demons. However, if the templars actually protected and supported them, why would mages feel the need to escape or fight back?

Meridith was insane from the inception. In buddhism, interfering with the free will of others is one of the sure fire ways to reincarnate in hell. Anyone who is that certain, self rightious and pityless is clearly evil. Anyone willing to incite genocide is evil. Anyone who can't tell the difference between a group of people and an individual action is racist and an idiot. If you look at any of the great real world evils in history, you will see that they share dominant personality traits with meridith. Evil lunatics are always sure what they are doing is right. Noble leaders always are in self doubt over their actions, because doubt is a pre-requisite for self reflection. I think the idol just predated on meridith's personality and turned it into an incarnation of psychosis and evil.

Mages are dangerous and powerful. They need to be shown compassion and recieve education and support from the templars. The templars should be trying to give them as normal a life as possible. They should be educating the mages about demonic influence and fade creatures without repressing them. When a repressed person suddenly becomes powerful, they often become dangerous and impulsive. A person who is not repressed has nothing to strike out against.

I am not suggesting that templars are not necessary. However, the ones in Kirkwall are so corrupt and backwards that they are doing harm to society in general. Orsino was not an unreasonable man (until the very end), he even would allow meridith to search the circle tower. Meridith was beyond the point of compromise from the beginning of act 3 and had taken absolute power over the entire city.

[IanPolaris]

Nashiktal wrote...

I'd like to see someone without a swrord or lyrium rend your body from the inside out with your own blood, then use said blood to summon demons which go on a genocidal killing spree and causing havoc that most normal soldiers can't possibly stop.

Look we get it. Locking up mages for just being mages is bad. However you have to admit it's just a little bit different than some random cutthroat with a knife. Especially considering most modern ways of killing people in mass are not accessible to the public, unlike today where you can order the parts for a bomb online.

If you've had training as a soldier/warrior, you don't need a weapon to be deadly.  You ARE a weapon.  That goes double for martial arts masters.

So should we lock away all ex-soldiers and martial arts masters because you can not make them not-deadly by taking away their hands and feet?  It's exactly the same thing.

-Polaris

[The Angry One]

IanPolaris wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

I'd like to see someone without a swrord or lyrium rend your body from the inside out with your own blood, then use said blood to summon demons which go on a genocidal killing spree and causing havoc that most normal soldiers can't possibly stop.

Look we get it. Locking up mages for just being mages is bad. However you have to admit it's just a little bit different than some random cutthroat with a knife. Especially considering most modern ways of killing people in mass are not accessible to the public, unlike today where you can order the parts for a bomb online.

If you've had training as a soldier/warrior, you don't need a weapon to be deadly.  You ARE a weapon.  That goes double for martial arts masters.

So should we lock away all ex-soldiers and martial arts masters because you can not make them not-deadly by taking away their hands and feet?  It's exactly the same thing.

-Polaris

Can ex-soldiers be possessed by demons and become many times as powerful?
Can ex-soldiers mind control you?

[IanPolaris]

The Angry One wrote...

Can ex-soldiers be possessed by demons and become many times as powerful?

Yes.  See a person hyped on on PCP.  It's super easy to get on the street too.

Can ex-soldiers mind control you?

Neither can 90+% of all bloodmages, and apparenly it's hard to control people for very long.  Again, it's a danger but it seems to be yet another overhyped danger by the chantry to justify the unjustifiable.

Mind control is apparently very advanced bloodmagic that;'s difficult to work.  Otherwise there would be no story at all...the mind-controlling bloodmages would have taken over long ago.

-Polaris

Edit PS: Mind control is a particularly vacuus excuse driven by fear not reason.  Like I said, only a few bloodmages ever do even rudamentary mind control, and most mages are not bloodmages (even DG admits that the Act 3 protrayal of mages was badly one-sided and very badly skewed).  That means you want to imprison and treat like animals all mage for what 1:1000 MIGHT do.  Nice.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 07 avril 2011 - 09:04 .

[Iosev]

Just as there is the potential for anyone to become dangerous, the fear for magi is also understandable.

Magi need a place like the Circle in order to receive instruction in how to control their powers, as much as people need the templar to protect them from the abuses of magic.

The problem within Thedas, is when that place of learning becomes a place of oppression, and when the templars defending people become a force of persecution.

I don't think there is an easy solution to this problem, but it's obvious that their current system isn't working.

Modifié par arcelonious, 07 avril 2011 - 09:06 .

[Bigdoser]

arcelonious wrote...

Just as there is the potential for anyone to become dangerous, the fear for magi is also understandable.

Magi need a place like the Circle in order to receive instruction in how to control their powers, as much as people need the templar to protect them from the abuses of magic.

The problem within Thedas, is when that place of learning becomes a place of oppression, and when the templars defending people become a force of persecution.

I don't think there is an easy solution to this problem, but it's obvious that their current system isn't working.

Knowing the chantry they won't allow change heck I fully went pro mage after alain(can never spell his name) "A templar comes into his room at night" He threatens to make him tranquil if he talks <_< I was planning to go templar that playthrough never again am I going to side with them also the fact that they toutred and killed a dalish for information on the apostate.

[Morroian]

Beerfish wrote...

Just Anders?  Are you forgetting the 1001 abominations, blood mages and mage killers throughout the whole story before Anders adds the icing to the cake by blowing up the Chantry and then Orsino putting the cherry on top?

There weren't that many until Act 3, the escalation in Act 3 is clearly because of Meredith's repression.