176 réponses à ce sujet

[Bigdoser]

Morroian wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

Just Anders?  Are you forgetting the 1001 abominations, blood mages and mage killers throughout the whole story before Anders adds the icing to the cake by blowing up the Chantry and then Orsino putting the cherry on top?

There weren't that many until Act 3, the escalation in Act 3 is clearly because of Meredith's repression.

Indeed I mean a freledan mage turned herself in but after being in the kirkwall circle she suddenly becomes an abomination gee I wonder how that happend? From the information we gather from the game she was perfectly fine before that.

[White_Buffalo94]

Darth Krytie wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Saying Meredith isn't insane because you agree with her is like saying someone isn't bipolar because you share political views with them.

Meredith is insane. She's had the idol of gooey-magical-brain-whacka-whacka for three years. Look at what happened to Bartrand, and his race is more resistant to the effects of lyrium than humans.

I got the impression that Dwarves were actually more affected by the particular lyrium in the Idol than other races. When we're in Bartrand's house, Varric is the only one that starts going sorta batty in the party.


Otherwise, I agree. Meredith is nuts. However, I do not think the Idol made Meredith think the way she did. It only exacerbated things that were already there in her psyche.

Varric is barely a dwarf though. For one, and most importantly, he has no beard so, yeah.
Second, he was born topside and thus is not that resistant to lyrium if at all

[Deified Data]

At least it wasn't another "let the Circle handle Connor, everyone's happy" conclusion. I agree - Meredith isn't entirely without reason, and she seems to even possess a certain sense of honor, even in the end, when she allows the mages to prepare for battle. Her insistance on seeing blood magic wherever she looks is obviously the effect of the idol...that being said, were she not posessed, would she be entirely wrong about that assertion?

[White_Buffalo94]

Robhuzz wrote...

Ferretinabun wrote...

Okay, maybe calling the Right of Annulment for the chantry's destruction when the real culprit is standing right beside her is a tad on the whacko side (not to mention, rather funny), but I'd say her paranoia is pretty much justified given that blood mages crop up like cockroaches in DA2.
Plus, she has a damn sexy voice!

I spotted a potential plot hole there. If you remember in DAO there was a templar in the elven alienage, able to sense the presence of demons and blood magic. How is it then that there were so many blood mages and demons in Kirkwall and none of the templars ever seemed to do something about it.

This is just a very difficult conflict because the mages will continue to use blood magic as they see it's the only way to win against the templars. And as long as mages turn to blood magic the templars will continue to purge them. It just seems like an endless cycle until mages either stop using blood magic or the templars stop caring (The latter is not going to happen and the former is also rather unlikely)

In the alienage, the presence of blood magic and demons is more concentrated I guess. Since it is so much smaller in comparison to the rest of the city, the amount of demonic presence within the orphange is nearly as dense as in the Circle Tower. In Kirkwall, however, there would be so much ground to cover it would be improbable that they would find any blood mages.

P.S. Gregoir IS cool

Modifié par White_Buffalo94, 07 avril 2011 - 09:37 .

[White_Buffalo94]

m14567 wrote...

I thought the whole demon sword/lyrium idol seemed unnecessary without it I think most people would have seen it as Meredith being Meredith. It might have made Cullen's action a little more surprising if she doesn't start waving a gigantic glowing red sword and jump 40 feet into the air.

Then it would be an incredibly easy fight. She is a templar, like the other 1000 you kill throughout your stay in Kirkwall. Her only power is a drive to oppress mages

[Heavensrun]

Icy Magebane wrote...
The woman who was taking care of the orphaned Fereldens made a demonic pact.

The woman who was taking care of the orphaned Fereldens was -posessed by a demon-.  That does not nessecarily mean that she did so willingly.

[Hawke123]

Food for thought: Blood magic for many mages in DA2 is a situational evil. Could it be seen that many turned to blood magic out of desperation?

[GavrielKay]

Mages are basically kidnapped at age 6ish and kept locked up while constantly being hounded about how dangerous they are and how easy it would be for them to be taken over by a demon etc... This essentially makes sure they have no family, friends or normal human empathy for their fellows. Anders says they don't dare love anyone because it gives the Templars too much power.

How exactly can you expect this situation to lead to well adjusted mages who have deep motives to remain good solid citizens who resist deals with demons and blood magic? If you create a perfect environment to grow sociopaths you shouldn't be too surprised when they crop up.

Treat mages as special people who can do great good in the world: amazing acts of healing, building and protecting. Then you might have folks who have genuine love and respect for others in the world and feel they have something to lose by turning evil.

As someone else said, if you're always suspected of being an evil blood-mage abomination-in-waiting there's little reason to avoid it.

[CaimDark]

I have to admit it scared me a little how many people on this thread cheerfully embrace the enslavement and slaughter of mages "to protect society". I really really really hope such views are confined to the game, and that no one secretly harbors a desire to, say, wipe Saudi Arabia off the map with a nuclear barrage because, hey, most of the 9/11 conspirators were saudi, look at the harm they can cause if allowed to live!!!!

[Rifneno]

CaimDark wrote...

I have to admit it scared me a little how many people on this thread cheerfully embrace the enslavement and slaughter of mages "to protect society". I really really really hope such views are confined to the game, and that no one secretly harbors a desire to, say, wipe Saudi Arabia off the map with a nuclear barrage because, hey, most of the 9/11 conspirators were saudi, look at the harm they can cause if allowed to live!!!!

My thoughts exactly.  I didn't want to put it so bluntly, but it really is kind of unnerving...

[Exile Isan]

Nashiktal wrote...
I don't think mages should be treated like prisoners, but they sure as hell shouldn't be without some sort of watchmen. 

But who watches the watchers?

[CaimDark]

Exile Isan wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...
I don't think mages should be treated like prisoners, but they sure as hell shouldn't be without some sort of watchmen. 

But who watches the watchers?

Me!!!

[Hannibal218]

I don't know if anyone said this yet (I'm not reading seven pages of posts) but Meredith seemed kinda hinky to me since you got to formally meet her during the Arishok's attack. I had Aveline in my party and she was all kids of ****y to her for no apparent reason(other than, maybe, she was an authority figure that didn't bow down before Meredith) and then when we meet Orsino Meredith gets all kinds of pissy when Hawke took charge. Then, after showing the Arishok the strength of Hawke's pimp-hand Meredith comes and gets pissed because everyone's cheering for Hawke rather than, I guess, her. Hell, I thought she was about to attack Hawke after she gave him a death-glare but then she sheathed her sword. then the next act comes around and we find she's running the city and blocking the appointment of a new Viscount and trying to get avaline canned to shore up her power base.

After coming to that conclusion I thought back and realized that if she was any good at her job, at all, she knew that Alrik was doing his thing and that her templars were crazy enough to attack Hawke and Thrask just for trying to resolve the whole starkhaven mage thing sans mass-murder. Sword or no, Meredith was a power hungry, mage hating, ****.

Modifié par Hannibal218, 07 avril 2011 - 11:29 .

[Cutlass Jack]

The Angry One wrote...

Avissel wrote...

I think the only totally trustworth source in the whole series is the murder knife. He has yet to lie to or trick me.

I call mine Terrance.

I call mine Mr. Stabby.
I'm not terribly imaginative.

Mine is 'Princess Stabbidy Stab.' After my Warden's first love.

[trobbins777]

I don't think Meredith's insane, mages are dangerous and need to be monitered, but she is a massive idiot. Her brutality and zealotry only strengthened her enemies resolve, reinforcements and lost her the support of her allies. She should have tried to make the circle more appealing to mages, and monitored corruption in her own ranks. If she did that then i could guarantee that 99% of apostates would be exclusively blood mages.

I'm probably biased though. I don't like the chantry as a whole because it is a militant organization that doesn't answer to the people of the state it occupies.

[Psython]

Rifneno wrote...

CaimDark wrote...

I have to admit it scared me a little how many people on this thread cheerfully embrace the enslavement and slaughter of mages "to protect society". I really really really hope such views are confined to the game, and that no one secretly harbors a desire to, say, wipe Saudi Arabia off the map with a nuclear barrage because, hey, most of the 9/11 conspirators were saudi, look at the harm they can cause if allowed to live!!!!

My thoughts exactly.  I didn't want to put it so bluntly, but it really is kind of unnerving...

Agreed! The templars enforce a certain institutional racism against mages. Its really not surprising they turn to blood magic out of desperation. The templars use the few mages that reach the breaking point as evidence for the corruption of all mages. However, its the corruption of the templars that cause the issue in the first place. Mages who are not desperate do not need to turn to blood magic. It seems like most apostates in the dragon age universe are able to live relatively normal lives just fine without the templars.

[Blacklash93]

I wish the lyrium idol/sword was developed in another way. What could have been a nice, insightful look at new lore was instead reduced to a cheap plot device.

Somehow Meredith had to be above and beyond any normal human to be a suitable final boss, but I really wish it hadn't been done that way.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 08 avril 2011 - 01:00 .

[sphinxess]

Psython wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

CaimDark wrote...

I have to admit it scared me a little how many people on this thread cheerfully embrace the enslavement and slaughter of mages "to protect society". I really really really hope such views are confined to the game, and that no one secretly harbors a desire to, say, wipe Saudi Arabia off the map with a nuclear barrage because, hey, most of the 9/11 conspirators were saudi, look at the harm they can cause if allowed to live!!!!

My thoughts exactly.  I didn't want to put it so bluntly, but it really is kind of unnerving...

Agreed! The templars enforce a certain institutional racism against mages. Its really not surprising they turn to blood magic out of desperation. The templars use the few mages that reach the breaking point as evidence for the corruption of all mages. However, its the corruption of the templars that cause the issue in the first place. Mages who are not desperate do not need to turn to blood magic. It seems like most apostates in the dragon age universe are able to live relatively normal lives just fine without the templars.

We don't really know the power of the average mage in the circle. Since they take every child they can find that shows any sign of magic I would assume its pretty limited - surely not enough to combat a Templar. Blood magic - in particular the demon summoning part can be done by any mage - it sure gives a weaker mage the best chance against a Templar that about to drag you off to make tranquel or some other horrible thing, and even if you lose the battle of wills and are possessed you at least die hoping the demon get some revenge.

Modifié par sphinxess, 08 avril 2011 - 01:08 .

[Nashiktal]

Deified Data wrote...

At least it wasn't another "let the Circle handle Connor, everyone's happy" conclusion. I agree - Meredith isn't entirely without reason, and she seems to even possess a certain sense of honor, even in the end, when she allows the mages to prepare for battle. Her insistance on seeing blood magic wherever she looks is obviously the effect of the idol...that being said, were she not posessed, would she be entirely wrong about that assertion?

Indeed Bioware gave us a few flashes of what could have been. However they did not do it enough! Almost everything bad in the first few parts of the game is either directly, or indirectly blames her. Even the templars feel separate from Meridith.

So while we garner sympathy for Mages (early one, where we see the tame stuff) and the templar (later when we see what non-hawke templars have to deal with) we never get much interaction with Meridith herself. 

The only parts I can think of come LATE act 3. She sends you to be a templar for a day, and then shows honor with the mages to prepare for battle.

Besides that? We get very little to work with.

[Nightdragon8]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Meredith was not insane before buying the idol... she may have been over-zealous, but it's her job to contain and control mages. Obviously some people are going to disagree with that, but it's not like she called for Annulment before things got out of her control. Hell, she didn't even suggest that as an option until long after getting the idol. She didn't do anything wrong IMO.

Honestly I think what it really is that, we all liked Griagor as a Knight-commander. While he had his faults, he was an all round good guy. and I think most of us would welcome his kind of people.

While Meredith was a far stricter sort of people. that we really don't want to have around us. With her its like she can never drop her Templar self. that for her it seems thats the only this she can ever be. So in a way she is very anti-soical in that matter.

Also I agree she was a bad leader, the amount of crap that went on during act 1 is enough to say that she is a bad leader.

[lobi]

Nightdragon8 wrote...
I agree she was a bad leader, the amount of crap that went on during act 1 is enough to say that she is a bad leader.

Her immediate subordinates white-anted her authority constantly especially the more hard line elements. Cullen knew about the recruits gossip but dismissed it as meaningless which is a bad way to maintain discipline in the ranks.
It was the men in the order who tore her down, bastards.

[Fast Jimmy]

Zombie thread.

Seriously, do people troll down the subject thread for pages and pages and decide to resurrect these things out of some kind of necrophilia fetish or something?

[TEWR]

Robhuzz wrote...

Ferretinabun wrote...

Okay, maybe calling the Right of Annulment for the chantry's destruction when the real culprit is standing right beside her is a tad on the whacko side (not to mention, rather funny), but I'd say her paranoia is pretty much justified given that blood mages crop up like cockroaches in DA2.
Plus, she has a damn sexy voice!

I spotted a potential plot hole there. If you remember in DAO there was a templar in the elven alienage, able to sense the presence of demons and blood magic. How is it then that there were so many blood mages and demons in Kirkwall and none of the templars ever seemed to do something about it.

This is just a very difficult conflict because the mages will continue to use blood magic as they see it's the only way to win against the templars. And as long as mages turn to blood magic the templars will continue to purge them. It just seems like an endless cycle until mages either stop using blood magic or the templars stop caring (The latter is not going to happen and the former is also rather unlikely)

Because he went blind. When people lose a sense, other sense become stronger. It's even possible to develop super senses as one neuroscientist believes*.

Plus, he really just said that through his talks with the people something was off about the alienage. It's like when I played the human noble Origin on my first playthrough of Origins. When Howe said "I.... thank you. That is.... quite unnecessary." I knew something was wrong. I thought he would either betray me for power, or out of him being blackmailed. It was the former as I later found out.

There was something about the area that just seemed wrong to him.

*http://www.newsytype...n-super-senses/

[lobi]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Zombie thread.

Seriously, do people troll down the subject thread for pages and pages and decide to resurrect these things out of some kind of necrophilia fetish or something?

Yes.

[Fast Jimmy]

lobi wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Zombie thread.

Seriously, do people troll down the subject thread for pages and pages and decide to resurrect these things out of some kind of necrophilia fetish or something?

Yes.

Well... okay then.

Usually you have to pay to see action like that...