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The smugglers and the mercenaries - a case study


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#26
darrylzero

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KJandrew wrote...

Forst1999 wrote...

KJandrew wrote...

Yeah i was thinking this while playing it. I would of preferred it if maybe people like Bran or the Viscount had more respect for a mercenary over a Smuggler. I mean all you got was one quest depending on which group you side with. I think it would have been better if maybe the Coterie were more aggressive towards you as a smuggler. Also a thing that confused me why is Aveline ok with you being a smuggler for a year?


Well, because the alternative is being a hired killer? "Mercenary" sounds okay, but both quests for them ivolve killing people.


In medieval kind of setting being a mercenary was atleast seen as 'honest' work whereas smugglers were just simple criminals


Quite the opposite as I understand it.  Mercenaries were dangerous folk you didn't want be near (the Peace of Westphalia finally put a stop to it becuase mercenaries so ravaged Europe during the 30 years war), whereas smuggling was really just dodging taxes.  And it's not like those taxes were collected by a democratic government either.  The nobility probably wasn't fond of smuggling, but it was a pretty central facet of rural life in many places.

Most "city guards," if the concepts isn't just an anachronism, probably would have just represented the interests of the ruling elite -- focusing heavily on tax collecting themselves.  But the way Aveline sees and talks about the mission of the guard, it's mostly about protecting regular people.  I think she'd see mercenaries as the bigger threat.

Anyway, I've said it elsewhere so I'll say it here too.  I really think being able to do more smuggling would be great, which might just mean playing that first year.  I think it would be nice if the mercenaries and smugglers ended up on opposite sides of a conflict between a noble trying to protect his profit margin and smugglers undercutting it.

#27
darrylzero

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noxsachi wrote...

I really was kinda shocked at how the Mercs acted after the prologue to be honest. As someone mentioned in this time period mercenary work was seen as honest and I really got the whole Caremon/Raistlin vibe going with myself and Carver so that seemed to be the way to go, but in Act 1 Meeran acted like a total ass, which was disconnected even from the letters he wrote me which were in a semi respectful, if not at least businesslike tone.


Why would mercenary work ever seem honorable?  It is by definition killing for money.  More over, they were often paid in pillage rather an actual salary.  Dangerous, cruel people who can't be relied upon.  Ask Machiavelli; Bioware got that part right.

Smuggling might entail all kinds of moral compromises at times, but not necessarily killing (unlike being a mercenary).  And rulers didn't even have prohibitionist policies (like say against drugs or alcohol) back then.  So, smugglers were just dodging import/export duties (which were leveled by authoritarian leaders).

In the case of DA2, that basically means either

1) lyrium, which is actually prohibited,

2) slaving, which would be smuggling from Kirkwall, but is treated as distinct by the game, or

3) thumbing your nose at the nobility.  The viscount is not a cruel or hereditary leader, so it's really the whole ruling class' regulations you're rejecting. 

I obviously like that, but I can see both sides of it.  That's why I think it woudl be great if we got a DLC where the mercenaries were the private militia of a noble businessman and the smugglers were undercutting his business, and you could play that first year in either camp.

I'll stop repeating myself now, but please a DLC like that would be wonderful. 

#28
Foolsfolly

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Perles75 wrote...

Probably this topic can be framed in the general problem of DA2 that your choices don't really matter too much.
Anyway, I was quite disappointed by the fact that the choice that you make at the end of the prologue - whether to work for the smugglers or the mercenaries for a year - does not have almost any repercussion later.

I mean, this choice marks your entry pass into the society of Kirkwall, and most likely it allows you to create some contacts, friends, enemies, etc. So it is somehow a key moment for Hawke. Why is it not pursued for the game's sake?
For example, if I choose the smugglers and I'm interested in pursuing not-so-legal activities, why don't I have the possibility, if I want, to get the control of Athenril's group, or make Kirkwall become the headquarters of my own thieves' guild, or becoming the criminal mastermind of Lowtown, etc.? the same goes with the mercenaries. After all, the story spans ten years, so such developments are absolutely realistic in terms of timeline...

I really feel this was a missed occasion.


Thought the same thing. There's also the Magistrate's Orders quest which felt bigger than the game allowed it. I always expected the Magistrate to do something against Hawke (or Mom's wanting to get back the old mansion). Nothing happens.

It's an odd game.

People say it's less epic and more personal but it doesn't go into any depth to actually be personal. Cases like the smuggler/mercenary thing underline that.

I don't know anymore. It's a flawed game, probably even a good game if you buy 30 bucks or less. But it's just not as good as it should have been.

I've come to terms with that now.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 10 avril 2011 - 04:37 .


#29
PantheraOnca

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Foolsfolly wrote...



Thought the same thing. There's also the Magistrate's Orders quest which felt bigger than the game allowed it. I always expected the Magistrate to do something against Hawke (or Mom's wanting to get back the old mansion). Nothing happens.



Yeah, I was expecting a phase of the game to have you as viscount and for him to make life hard/easy for you depending on how you did his quest.

#30
TobiTobsen

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Zorr Crew wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...
How exactly did Aveline, as a refuge fresh from the boat, get a job in the guard anyway? I thought you needed to work for a year so you could get into town and make yourself a name so you wouldn't be shipped back right away? What was Aveline doing? As soon as you're in the city after you were sold into servitude she starts working for the guard while Hawke and his/her sibling are paying the debt for everyone, including Aveline. And she doesn't seem to speak very often to Hawke, if I interpreted their first meeting in the baracks right.

"Thanks for getting me into town. Oh, and have fun working for the scum of the earth! I'm off, byebye!"
That's one hell of a way to show your gratitude.


Aveline was made a guard so quick because she was an officer in the Ferelden army and probably got a vote of confidence by Captain Ewel (or whatever his name is) when Hawke and friends fight the deserters in Act 1. She may have been brought in as a "temporary recruit" like Hawke was in the Way It Should Be quest, and impressed the guard enough that they brought her in as a full member.
Carver mentions an application for being made a guard and I'll bet Aveline filled out a pretty good one for her to be hired in in that year.


Yeah... and blocked the one from Carver. The more I think about Aveline the more annoyed I am.

She leaves as soon as they are in the city and lets the Hawkes pay her debt with the smugglers/mercenaries.
She blocks Carvers application for the only job he, as a Ferelden refuge, can get that's not totaly underpaid.

And the biggest failure in my book: She gets presented as very competent as a guard captain but all I see her doing is a failure. The city is crawling with rooftop gangs, she handwaves the evidence Emeric found in the Killercase, fails to search the foundry, fails to notice anything is wrong about Gascard DePuis, fails to protect the girl I save from DePuis and she didn't noticed that her old captain is back in town and is fuelling the anti ferelden hate.

/rant

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 10 avril 2011 - 09:39 .


#31
KJandrew

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darrylzero wrote...

KJandrew wrote...

Forst1999 wrote...

KJandrew wrote...

Yeah i was thinking this while playing it. I would of preferred it if maybe people like Bran or the Viscount had more respect for a mercenary over a Smuggler. I mean all you got was one quest depending on which group you side with. I think it would have been better if maybe the Coterie were more aggressive towards you as a smuggler. Also a thing that confused me why is Aveline ok with you being a smuggler for a year?


Well, because the alternative is being a hired killer? "Mercenary" sounds okay, but both quests for them ivolve killing people.


In medieval kind of setting being a mercenary was atleast seen as 'honest' work whereas smugglers were just simple criminals


Quite the opposite as I understand it.  Mercenaries were dangerous folk you didn't want be near (the Peace of Westphalia finally put a stop to it becuase mercenaries so ravaged Europe during the 30 years war), whereas smuggling was really just dodging taxes.  And it's not like those taxes were collected by a democratic government either.  The nobility probably wasn't fond of smuggling, but it was a pretty central facet of rural life in many places.

Most "city guards," if the concepts isn't just an anachronism, probably would have just represented the interests of the ruling elite -- focusing heavily on tax collecting themselves.  But the way Aveline sees and talks about the mission of the guard, it's mostly about protecting regular people.  I think she'd see mercenaries as the bigger threat.

Mercenaries were used hugely. The Lombardi's in southern Italy had Norman Mercenaries as their standing armies. They were seen the same as professional soldiers just not as trustworthy as greedy ones would break their contracts for a better offer. As a mercenary you worked for your money and food by obeying your lord. Wheras Smugglers were criminals who were disobeying their leige's laws. There was no punishment for being a mercenary, it was perfectly legal. But for being a smuggler you could lose your hand or your head in harsher places.
Also the Thirty Years War wasn't in medieval period and Machieveli was just at the end of the middle ages 

#32
Perles75

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Mercenaries do not have a nice reputation, as don't smugglers, anyway.

Again, it's a pity that you don't have the possibility of pursuing more these hooks that the game gives at the beginning... it could have been nice to have the option to continue working as a mercenary, climb the ranking of the group, eventually becoming the leader and perhaps orientating the group's business in "ethical" mercenary duties (or, on the opposite side of the spectrum, becoming a feared and ruthless force in Kirkwall). Or creating a new mercenary society to get in competition with Meeran, with the obvious final confrontation with his group...

#33
darrylzero

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KJandrew wrote...

Mercenaries were used hugely. The Lombardi's in southern Italy had Norman Mercenaries as their standing armies. They were seen the same as professional soldiers just not as trustworthy as greedy ones would break their contracts for a better offer. As a mercenary you worked for your money and food by obeying your lord. Wheras Smugglers were criminals who were disobeying their leige's laws. There was no punishment for being a mercenary, it was perfectly legal. But for being a smuggler you could lose your hand or your head in harsher places.

Also the Thirty Years War wasn't in medieval period and Machieveli was just at the end of the middle ages 


Mercenaries weren't just untrustworthy because they might jump ship for a better offer; it was also very hard to get them to actually risk their lives when push came to shove.  If money is their only motivation, how can they ever be expected to risk death?  But I actually agree with what you've said, for the most part, and I was probably exaggerating a little to make a point.  Still, I think what I was trying to get at is still roughly accurate.  Here it is:

From the perspective of those in power, mercenaries were legitimate but potentially dangerous and often distasteful.  I think most of what you say above is true, but I would like to reemphasize that the wages of mercenaries, particularly during war, were often paid in pillage not salary.  This is of course not so different from knights in the dark ages, but the gap widens as knights become increasingly aristocratic.  Smugglers, on the other hand, were illegitimate -- but only because they deprived those rulers of tax revenue (rulers who often behaved in very authoritarian and warmongering ways).  In this, they share a great deal with the peasantry in general, who were constantly deceiving their lords about their harvests and such, if only on the margins, in order to increase the chances they could feed their entire families and the like. 

From the perspective of commoners, on the other hand, mercenaries often showed up mostly to rape and pillage, whereas smugglers were socially embedded in communities and often brought useful goods with them.  Since taxes at that point were not used in the service of the public good, with the partial exception of security (though the lord in question was often security threat #1, which is why comparisons have been drawn between feudal rule and the protection rackets of mafia groups), the thought of blaming people for dodging those taxes wouldn't resonate with most of the public.  In periods of exceptionally competent and generous rule, this dynamic might be disrupted, but I think it was probably true more often than it was false.

I think Aveline would probably balance those two perspectives, not take the side of commoners alone, for what that's worth.  But I think that what she says about the purpose of the city guard indicates that she feels that protecting regular folk is its noblest purpose.  Her perspective, if it were transported directly into medieval Europe, would probably be somewhat anachronistic, but she doesn't live there.  The breakdown of how taxes are collected and spent in Kirkwall is pretty unclear, but the city is obviously in need of greater public security, and it doesn't seem like the city's nobility are a big part of the problem.  So, she would support taxation to pay the salaries of more guardsmen and have a certain distaste for smuggling.  If that's the only way Fereldan refugees can make a buck, though?  I think she'd understand, and I think she'd be relieved they're not engaging in banditry.  So, I maintain that she would be more nervous about mercenaries than smugglers. 

It's true that the we shouldn't read the disgust with mercenaries that was born of the 30 years war back into the earlier period.  But I also think that disgust didn't just erupt because of the behavior of mercenaries in that particular war; I think it had been brewing for quite some time.  Machiavelli is admittedly also a somewhat later thinker, but I think we should think of as a contemporary of some developments within the Dragon Age universe.  So, I think it makes sense to view all of this as part of a process, which culminates in the experience of the 30 years war, that was set into motion by the untrustworthiness and brutality of mercenaries that had been going on for centuries.  Machiavelli's observations are about the past as well, after all, not just contemporary events. 

More importantly, I think that it's equally true that we shouldn't read our contemporary comfort with the salience of law and criminality back into history either.  The legitimacy of taxation in the first place was not easy to establish or maintain, and it seems pretty clear that non-aristocratic people mostly saw skirting taxation where possible (as in smuggling) as pretty legitimate.  And I think our assumptions about smugglers as violent, dangerous people are also born in part of (much) more recent experiences.  They probably needed violence to enforce contracts amongst themselves at times, and maybe to avoid being caught, but the preferred strategy is clearly one of hiding and running -- and maintaining the good will of local communities is a crucial part of that strategy.

Once again, the historical record of the real world isn't that relevant.  In Kirkwall, taxes are probably being used to provide public security (which is desperately needed), and corrupt guardsmen are punished when they are caught.  And apparently lyrium smugglers are really dangerous, violent people (though I still don't fully understand why).  So, I'm not trying to paint all power as evil or all resistance as noble.  I don't believe that about the real world or Thedas.  But being a mercenary always involves killing for profit, and being a smuggler doesn't.  That should hold in either setting, and I think Aveline would understand it too.

#34
KJandrew

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darrylzero wrote...
snip

not all mercenaries were untrustworthy and likely to switch sides. The Varangian Guard were a mini army of Rus that were hired by the Byzantine Emperors for their ferocity and the fact that they were more trustworthy than the native soldiers who more than once had switched sides in civil wars and disputes, turning on their emperor. Also quite alot of mercenaries were willing to charge straight into the enemy, provided you promised them that they get to pillage the enemies wagons or pillage the city.
Though i do agree with you that Aveline would probably prefer you working Athenriel, i mean some dead coterie thugs in the gutter and some missing tax money is better than Nobilty being attacked in the streets and full out brawls. 

Modifié par KJandrew, 10 avril 2011 - 08:10 .


#35
darrylzero

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Fair enough. I still think the problems inherent in getting mercenaries to risk their lives with any kind of consistency are substantial. There are certainly very strong incentives for them not to do so (as with any soldier, but without the additional leverage of nationalism, patriotism, or fealty).

Where possible, it probably involved an incredible amount of internal discipline within mercenary companies, similar to the techniques used by armies (or maybe street gangs) to develop bonds of brotherhood. And it would probably mean making sure that the leadership of the mercenary company in question would not be similarly threatened by defeat.

Of course, I suppose some were probably just violent and stupid enough that it wasn't such an issue...

#36
didymos1120

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Forst1999 wrote...

Well, because the alternative is being a hired killer? "Mercenary" sounds okay, but both quests for them ivolve killing people.


No, they don't.  You can complete Athenril's quest entirely bloodlessly, and the quest itself is simply "Get the money that guy genuinely owes us but refuses to pay", whereas the merc one is explicitly a hit on someone.

#37
TobiTobsen

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didymos1120 wrote...

Forst1999 wrote...

Well, because the alternative is being a hired killer? "Mercenary" sounds okay, but both quests for them ivolve killing people.


No, they don't.  You can complete Athenril's quest entirely bloodlessly, and the quest itself is simply "Get the money that guy genuinely owes us but refuses to pay", whereas the merc one is explicitly a hit on someone.


He was also talking about the mercs. You actually are talking about the same thing Posted Image

#38
didymos1120

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TobiTobsen wrote...

He was also talking about the mercs. You actually are talking about the same thing Posted Image


Oh, right.  Nevermind. I thought by "both" he meant the intitial two for getting into Kirkwall.

#39
noxsachi

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KJandrew wrote...

darrylzero wrote...
snip

Though i do agree with you that Aveline would probably prefer you working Athenriel, i mean some dead coterie thugs in the gutter and some missing tax money is better than Nobilty being attacked in the streets and full out brawls. 

From her dialogue in accepting both she disapproves of the smugglers but approves of the mercs.

#40
KJandrew

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In defence of the merc who people seem to just be dismissing the mercs as just thugs and Athenriel as the better person. The smugglers first task is just about getting cash and the second one is about recovering goods and IIRC she attacks you if you admit giving the goods to the boy. Whereas Mereen's first quest is to get revenge on a guy for betraying him and causing a bunch of his guys to get killed. And in his second mission he still pays you if you don't kill the lord as long as you make sure one of his men makes it back alive

#41
KJandrew

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noxsachi wrote...

KJandrew wrote...

darrylzero wrote...
snip

Though i do agree with you that Aveline would probably prefer you working Athenriel, i mean some dead coterie thugs in the gutter and some missing tax money is better than Nobilty being attacked in the streets and full out brawls. 

From her dialogue in accepting both she disapproves of the smugglers but approves of the mercs.

Really? Then i have idea how to please that crazy woman what so ever

#42
ColdEnd

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Chances are it all was part of the original game, or at least the original game concept... but like so much else... I think it was intentionally withheld just so they could add it on a pay for play DLC basis.

They built the frame for the house, dusted themselves off, now we ask them to finnish the job and they say "Walls? You want walls too? Both inside and outside? Whew, well that's extra, and it's going to cost ya."

#43
Yrkoon

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Perles75 wrote...

Probably this topic can be framed in the general problem of DA2 that your choices don't really matter too much.
Anyway, I was quite disappointed by the fact that the choice that you make at the end of the prologue - whether to work for the smugglers or the mercenaries for a year - does not have almost any repercussion later.

I mean, this choice marks your entry pass into the society of Kirkwall, and most likely it allows you to create some contacts, friends, enemies, etc. So it is somehow a key moment for Hawke. Why is it not pursued for the game's sake?

It sorta is.  You can use both groups then double cross them once you're in the city.   Result:    they both get all P*ssed off and come after you later.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 10 avril 2011 - 10:24 .


#44
darrylzero

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ColdEnd wrote...

Chances are it all was part of the original game, or at least the original game concept... but like so much else... I think it was intentionally withheld just so they could add it on a pay for play DLC basis.

They built the frame for the house, dusted themselves off, now we ask them to finnish the job and they say "Walls? You want walls too? Both inside and outside? Whew, well that's extra, and it's going to cost ya."


Well, I hope they release that DLC.  I really want to be a smuggling kingpin. 

#45
Alamar2078

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I certainly agree that I would like to see more times / options where your choices matter. However would take "forever" to put in as many choices as I would like. Also [IMHO] part of the story was seeing how Hawke was swept along with events and that he wasn't really in control as events just continued to spiral out of control.

The more real control Hawke has the less feeling of being swept along will be justified.