52 replies to this topic

[Stinkface27]

Great guide! Thank you! Playing an archer now and this is definitely helpful.

[blue hoon]

After reloading some old saves and respeccing many times, I still have not found shadow to be that helpful for an archer (which makes me sad). However, I have found fatiguing fog to be helpful. Building Aveline to hit those disorients does make a difference. Especially if you can get enemies into a pile first.
The bonuses from Duelist have seemed much more beneficial than Shadow altogether. Although, I haven't found Vendetta to be that great.
My momentary conclusion is that Shadow will suit a dual wielder much better. My biggest conflict is that there just isn't enough time to get all the ability points i want. I really enjoy the upgraded specialist tree but I have also found a new love for sabotage. Getting all those ability points is barely possible by end game, especially if you want your fully upgraded Special trees. All in all, it seems that boosting Aveline's damage through CCCs is only minimally useful. I find myself killing most of the foes anyway. Maybe just keeping miasmic flask could be more useful, just for the cc.
Although your build can work, it is seeming to be second rate to me at the moment. I prefer to boost my damage through higher crit chance and possibly higher crit damage due to the ability to pump so much more cunning. In any event, thanks for the guide. Not many are giving shadow much of a chance and seeing your guide caused me to go back and try it some more (along with the sabotage tree). I will continue try some other ideas.

[mjharper]

blue hoon wrote...

After reloading some old saves and respeccing many times, I still have not found shadow to be that helpful for an archer (which makes me sad). However, I have found fatiguing fog to be helpful. Building Aveline to hit those disorients does make a difference. Especially if you can get enemies into a pile first.
The bonuses from Duelist have seemed much more beneficial than Shadow altogether. Although, I haven't found Vendetta to be that great.
My momentary conclusion is that Shadow will suit a dual wielder much better. My biggest conflict is that there just isn't enough time to get all the ability points i want. I really enjoy the upgraded specialist tree but I have also found a new love for sabotage. Getting all those ability points is barely possible by end game, especially if you want your fully upgraded Special trees. All in all, it seems that boosting Aveline's damage through CCCs is only minimally useful. I find myself killing most of the foes anyway. Maybe just keeping miasmic flask could be more useful, just for the cc.
Although your build can work, it is seeming to be second rate to me at the moment. I prefer to boost my damage through higher crit chance and possibly higher crit damage due to the ability to pump so much more cunning. In any event, thanks for the guide. Not many are giving shadow much of a chance and seeing your guide caused me to go back and try it some more (along with the sabotage tree). I will continue try some other ideas.

You know, I think most people would argue that Duelist is so much better for dual-wielders that Shadow isn't even worth looking at, let alone selecting. Parry is a great sustainable, but boosts to defense are much less useful for an archer; you should avoid being hit, and get out of the way when you are. Throw the Gauntlet is also of limited use to an archer (IMHO) since if there is one thing you don't want, it's an unshakable elite following you around until you're dead. For a DW rogue, it's far easier to deal with. Similarly, Vendetta is a great skill for a DWer, but without extreme care, can be a death sentence to an archer, placing you right next to a very angry enemy.

In defence of my build, I didn't necessarily want to create a cookie-cutter, ultimate DPS archer build. I wanted to avoid the Archery tree, I wanted to get as much out of Shadow as possible, and I wanted to avoid FF in order to make a Nightmare-viable build. It does those three things. AFAIK, there were no other archery builds on the forums when I began, so if I've given people enjoyment from reading my build, or prompted them to find (and hopefully write) alternate / better builds for archers, I'm extremely happy.

[Tomark]

I actually always thought Duelist was really, really bad for DW.

The only talent worth noting there is vendetta for the superb stagger from afar, but Shadow blow it all of the water witha basic +25% damage, auto-disorient, auto-crit, the best CC ability in the game (Decoy is simply brokenly powerful).

Duelist is quite poor compared to that.

[mjharper]

I'm beginning to think that Duelist is over-rated, actually. It basically gives you one good sustainable, one good (but risky) attack, and a glorified single-target taunt. Both Assassin and Shadow offer far more versatility.

[Amioran]

Duelist is good not only for Vendetta. One of the major things about Duelist is that it has two abilities (one via an upgrade sustainable, the other by itself) that boost to hit by 20% (so +40% with both). This means that you can invest everything in cunning and have similar critical damage than a shadow obscured.

While many says that "to hit" is not that important because you reach 100% easily, they often overcome the fact that this 100% is against normal enemies. Having "only" 100% means 75% against elites and 45% on bosses. This makes a lot of difference.

A glancing blow on nightmare means only 10% damage and no critical.

In any case, Shadow and Duelist are two different approaches. I think that Shadow is better to be constructed along auto-attacks, with high crit chance and obscuring most of the time (to have them increase damage immensely). So, your best friends are speed (to increase number of attacks) and being obscured. It is more similar to the cunning rogue of DAO (and in fact I prefer it, also if I like also Duelist and in some cases it can do even more damage, but, IMO, nothing beats watching a bar of an enemy go to 0 so fast that you cannot either see it, without using burst damage). Shadows are also better with elemental weapons just because of this (probably the best pair for a Shadow is Shadow's Claw - the name already says it, isn't it? - and The Maker's Kiss).

Duelist, instead, focus more on chaining abilties and burst damage. Given that they have a so high to hit without investing on dexterity means that they will invest heavily on cunning. This, however, has the drawback of relying more on talents that give crit every hit or that does criticals by themselves. So the chaining of abilities like Twin Fangs, Assassinate, Pinpoint Strikes and Vendetta. Since this is the case with Duelist and the fact that they rely mostly on abilities they are better off with Physical daggers (Finess + Carta or similar), apart for the end bosses. 

Edited by Amioran, 16 April 2011 - 05:51 PM.

[Tomark]

Amioran wrote...

Duelist is good not only for Vendetta. One of the major things about Duelist is that it has two abilities (one via an upgrade sustainable, the other by itself) that boost to hit by 20% (so +40% with both). This means that you can invest everything in cunning and have similar critical damage than a shadow obscured.

While many says that "to hit" is not that important because you reach 100% easily, they often overcome the fact that this 100% is against normal enemies. Having "only" 100% means 75% against elites and 45% on bosses. This makes a lot of difference.

DISORIENT gives -50% to defense, and any Shadow rogue who mainly invest on Cun would then come back to 100% Hit.

Remember that Shadow has auto-disorient when obscured, which they are often enough. That means it come back to Shadow having +50% damages, and then a 100% crit rate against mobs.

A dueling DW is mainly good against lieutenant, and a Shadow one is almost as good against them, and better against Boss and Mobs.

[mjharper]

Amioran wrote...

Duelist is good not only for Vendetta. One of the major things about Duelist is that it has two abilities (one via an upgrade sustainable, the other by itself) that boost to hit by 20% (so +40% with both). This means that you can invest everything in cunning and have similar critical damage than a shadow obscured.

While many says that "to hit" is not that important because you reach 100% easily, they often overcome the fact that this 100% is against normal enemies. Having "only" 100% means 75% against elites and 45% on bosses. This makes a lot of difference. 

The bonus to attack is useful, but I still don't think it's essential. My current rogue (following this build) has, at the very start of Act III (level 20, with 53 Dex and 40 Cun) 80% chance to hit against bosses, 85% critical chance, and 203% critical damage. Heroic Aura boosts that to 95% against bosses, and 95% critical chance. In other words, I don't have any real problems hitting anyone.

If it makes any difference to the viability of Shadow, I have just defeated the Arishok solo on NM with this build; and the only talents I actively used were Decoy, Inconspicuous, and Summon Mabari. The Arishok hit me twice in the entire fight: in his initial charge, and once when I got careless. I didn't take a single health potion. The rest of the time he was tied up with my Decoy or my dog; I think I had to kite him three times until he got bored and charged, giving me time to chug a stamina potion and summon another Decoy. In the four times I've fought him so far (the other three times were on Hard with a DW Rogue, a Blood Mage / Spirit Healer, and a Berserker Vanguard) this was the easiest.

That might be because my skills are improving, and it might be that the AI of the Arishok is a little buggy; but I honestly don't see how Duelist would have made that fight any easier.

[Ace Attorney]

You are missing the point, by having Duelist talents that boost Attack, you can take Speed over Precision, put less into Dex (just enough that with Gear plus runes you hit 41-42) and more toward Cun, and you get an universal Stagger CCC ability that isn't tied to DW.

It is fairly rated.

[blue hoon]

Sorry to sound like I was putting down your build. It is for sure, very viable. It just isn't suiting my playstyle, at least for my archer anyway. I've also been running a dw rogue and am finding shadow and chameleon very useful.

You are completely right in that the Arishok fight, with decoy, makes the fight almost seem cheezy. But the Arishok fight with an archer period, is pretty easy. I am finding that many fights with an archer become very easy, but there are some that are much more difficult with a bow.

The sabotage tree has been what I've been wanting to work. It's just that I can't get enough ability points before end game, while still filling out the other stuff I want. I've been trying to figure out what I can leave out so that i can. This is the main reason I was pointing toward duelist. If you only put a few points in it, just for the passives, it becomes much easier to get fatiguing fog.

These are just my opinions and I still think your build is great. It's actually the only full archer build I've seen except for the solo one by IN1. So, congrats to you, and thank you for the guide.

[Tomark]

T3hAnubis wrote...

You are missing the point, by having Duelist talents that boost Attack, you can take Speed over Precision, put less into Dex (just enough that with Gear plus runes you hit 41-42) and more toward Cun, and you get an universal Stagger CCC ability that isn't tied to DW.

It is fairly rated.

We were talking about a DW rogue and Duelist because < Shadow. and, no, having more points in Cun isn't easier with a duelist, nor is it comparable to the +50% damages on crite a Shadow rogue would almost always have + the auto-crit (much harder on a Duelist rogue) + the lack of CC (Decoy is completely broken, and inspicuousi s decent), nor the auto-disorient on foes when obscured.

all you get is a bit more +Hit that amounts to almost nothing and a very good CCC Stagger from afar.

Vendetta *might* be useful when there are 3+ lieutnants to kill quickly, but when it comes down to hit Shadow would still blow it out of the water because it would be that much quicker at killing all the mobs and 2 lieutnants, while the duelist one would maybe kill all the lieutnants but be a pain against the mobs compared to Shadow one.

[Ace Attorney]

Speed is a flat 10% DPS increase. And it isn't dependent on being obscured.
If I have more hitting, of course I don't need high Dex. Those points go toward Cun. And the Flank Crit, by end game, Rogues are High Crit anyway. Moving toward flanking a lot is time you are not doing attacks, aka not doing damage.

All I'm saying is that both Dueslist and Shadow are viable specs. Dismissing one because it doesn't fit your idea of good performance is ignorance.

Edited by T3hAnubis, 16 April 2011 - 09:33 PM.

[mjharper]

T3hAnubis wrote...

You are missing the point, by having Duelist talents that boost Attack, you can take Speed over Precision, put less into Dex (just enough that with Gear plus runes you hit 41-42) and more toward Cun, and you get an universal Stagger CCC ability that isn't tied to DW.

It is fairly rated.

I understand that, and I'll be looking into the viability of Speed for this build now that I've finished Assassin. But it's still worth remembering that any benefit of being able to boost Cunning must compared with the +25 critical damage given by Pinpoint Precision.

With Duelist, you get a bonus to attack / critical chance, and have to boost Cunning to compensate for the loss of critical damage; with Shadow you have to boost Dexterity, but get a bonus to critical damage. I feel that the choice between the specialisations comes down to the other talents / bonuses they offer.

[Tomark]

T3hAnubis wrote...

Speed is a flat 10% DPS increase. And it isn't dependent on being obscured.

Shadow has basic +25% without needing to be obscured, and +50% with it.

If I have more hitting, of course I don't need high Dex. Those points go toward Cun. And the Flank Crit, by end game, Rogues are High Crit anyway. Moving toward flanking a lot is time you are not doing attacks, aka not doing damage.

Rogues get 100% either with items or the Shadow auto-crit if you don't want to put points in dex at all. Hence, either you pump dex for auto-crit, or you sacrifice items to get that auto-crit.

Also, YOU DON'T NEED HIGH DEX with Shadow- even low-dex builds have close to 100% hit on boss if you play it right (as in, actually use disorient).

All I'm saying is that both Dueslist and Shadow are viable specs. Dismissing one because it doesn't fit your idea of good performance is ignorance.

Duelist is aviable spec, but not a good one.

[cihimi]

Remember, upgraded Fog and Miasmic are good friends.

[Amioran]

Tomark wrote...
DISORIENT gives -50% to defense, and any Shadow rogue who mainly invest on Cun would then come back to 100% Hit.

True, but you cannot be always obscured. Or you go totally for obscuration (that take a lot of points) or you will not be always obscured (mostly 1/3 of the time).

Anyway I didn't say that Duelist is better, I just evidenced that they have some handy things apart Vendetta,

[mjharper]

blue hoon wrote...

Sorry to sound like I was putting down your build. It is for sure, very viable. It just isn't suiting my playstyle, at least for my archer anyway. I've also been running a dw rogue and am finding shadow and chameleon very useful.

I didn't think you were trashing the build, but you did sound... disappointed, somehow. I'm really happy with the way Shadow has worked in the build, and wanted to argue the case for it a bit more. My apologies if I sounded more offended than I was :-)
 

blue hoon wrote...

You are completely right in that the Arishok fight, with decoy, makes the fight almost seem cheezy. But the Arishok fight with an archer period, is pretty easy. I am finding that many fights with an archer become very easy, but there are some that are much more difficult with a bow.

Very true. If the fights played out the same way no matter what build you use, we'd have a very boring game. I have to admit, though, that I was surprised at how easy the Arishok was. The quickest way for my archer to die is to get knockdown locked (that and fragged by one of those death hex spell-thingies Arcane Horrors seem to throw out), and I thought that might happen here. I do suspect that the AI is buggy; the number of times he trashed my Decoy, and then stood flailing wildly in the same spot while I took pot-shots, was silly. But even if he'd targetted me immediately the basic principle of run-Decoy-shoot, would have still worked perhaps too well.

blue hoon wrote...

The sabotage tree has been what I've been wanting to work. It's just that I can't get enough ability points before end game, while still filling out the other stuff I want. I've been trying to figure out what I can leave out so that i can. This is the main reason I was pointing toward duelist. If you only put a few points in it, just for the passives, it becomes much easier to get fatiguing fog.

I'm not so keen on the rest of the tree, but Fatiguing Fog is, in my mind, the glue that actually makes this build work. The investment is heavy, but the talent is amazing. It has got to be the best crowd control talent in the game.

As far as ability points are concerned, I only put 4 points in Shadow, which leaves enough points for Sabotage. I haven't looked at how many points you need in Duelist to make it useful, but I guess it's more? One of the things I like about Shadow (compared to, say, Assassin) is that most of the talents are one-point wonders.

blue hoon wrote...

These are just my opinions and I still think your build is great. It's actually the only full archer build I've seen except for the solo one by IN1. So, congrats to you, and thank you for the guide.

And thank you for reading :-)

[Lumikki]

This Archer build is basicly set for allmost totall auto attack and defensive talents use?

[mjharper]

Lumikki wrote...

This Archer build is basicly set for allmost totall auto attack and defensive talents use?

That, and awesome cross-class combos. Aveline like decimating mobs like you've never seen before 

[mjharper]

Double post. Sorry.

Also, while we're on the subject of flaky forum perfomance, can somebody please correct the editing notification? Every time I see "Changes has been saved" it makes me die a little.

Were the forums programmed by a LOLcat or something?

Edited by mjharper, 17 April 2011 - 10:14 AM.

[mjharper]

Added a note in the Gear section about the Rogue's Pack DLC. Will add more information and recommendations on my next playthrough.

[Spelt]

Just thought I'd let you know that I used your guide and pwnd all on NM. With the $ guide I ended with almost all the gear you noted. Great guide, worked flawlessly. At the end, my toon was an invisible blender shredding everything in its way... The thoroughness of your guide was also very helpful.

Cheers!

[ajm317]

Hm...I haven't played as an archer (played as a DW) but looking at this build the first thing that pops out to me is that you're not picking up Overkill and Annihilate until level 21. The game is practically over by then! I understand not wanting to take the Assassin tree early (because all the great goodies in it don't unlock until late levels) but were it up to me I would do the build intending to use a Maker's Sigh at level 14 when you unlock your 2nd specialization, to get all that spike damage as soon as I could. I don't think I'd want to wait until late in act 3 to get my brittle CCC instant kill button.

But then, I haven't played as an archer rogue, so maybe I'm out of line here. I know that as a DW being able to kill mages, rogues and lieutenants instantly on a consistent basis was awfully handy though.

Edited by ajm317, 05 May 2011 - 11:13 PM.

[SusanStoHelit]

ajm317 wrote...

Hm...I haven't played as an archer (played as a DW) but looking at this build the first thing that pops out to me is that you're not picking up Overkill and Annihilate until level 21. The game is practically over by then! I understand not wanting to take the Assassin tree early (because all the great goodies in it don't unlock until late levels) but were it up to me I would do the build intending to use a Maker's Sigh at level 14 when you unlock your 2nd specialization, to get all that spike damage as soon as I could. I don't think I'd want to wait until late in act 3 to get my brittle CCC instant kill button.

I point you to this, in the OP: the build will focus on critical chance and damage for basic (auto) attacks, and on the synergy between Subterfuge, Shadow, and Sabotage. Assassin will ultimately add some incredible spike damage in the form of Assassinate, but this build is more about setting up regular high  damage than firing off talents

Now, I can't speak for anyone else, but so far, I'm at L20 and having a blast with this build. Like AreleX's Berserker Vanguard warrior build, it's primary purpose is to utterly destroy things with auto-attacks. Not everyone's cup of tea perhaps, but works a treat.

[Edited for formatting.]

Edited by SusanStoHelit, 10 May 2011 - 07:58 AM.

[ajm317]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

ajm317 wrote...

Hm...I haven't played as an archer (played as a DW) but looking at this build the first thing that pops out to me is that you're not picking up Overkill and Annihilate until level 21. The game is practically over by then! I understand not wanting to take the Assassin tree early (because all the great goodies in it don't unlock until late levels) but were it up to me I would do the build intending to use a Maker's Sigh at level 14 when you unlock your 2nd specialization, to get all that spike damage as soon as I could. I don't think I'd want to wait until late in act 3 to get my brittle CCC instant kill button.

I point you to this, in the OP: the build will focus on critical chance and damage for basic (auto) attacks, and on the synergy between Subterfuge, Shadow, and Sabotage. Assassin will ultimately add some incredible spike damage in the form of Assassinate, but this build is more about setting up regular high  damage than firing off talents

Now, I can't speak for anyone else, but so far, I'm at L20 and having a blast with this build. Like AreleX's Berserker Vanguard warrior build, it's primary purpose is to utterly destroy things with auto-attacks. Not everyone's cup of tea perhaps, but works a treat.

[Edited for formatting.]

I don't doubt that it works in the sense that you can finish the game with it, I just wonder if it's optimal.  I'm not even suggesting changing the talents taken, just wondering aloud if it might not be better to get assassinate and its upgrades earlier.

Having played a game as a beserker vanguard, yes in that build you rely heavily on the auto attacks, but there are reasons for that.  The three main differences I see are:

1.  Bezerk.  This is a sustain that is more powerful if you leave stamina in the bank.  Rogues don't have anything like this.  It also eats up your stamina as you go, encouraging you to ignore abilities like MB or Scythe to ensure that you have enough stamina for cleave or barrage.

2.  Warriors don't get assassinate.  Mighty blow, Scythe and WW are...ok, but they're not game changers for the most part.  MB can be good if you inflict brittle, but even then it's just like getting in a couple extra attacks.  Assassinate is an "I win" button.  Instant death for nearly anything if you inflict brittle, and most things even if you don't.

3.  The 2h abilities are in their own tree and you need to invest a lot of points to get them really powered up.  Considering that things like barrage, cleave and fervor are just more important, you can't really do that until very late.  Assassinate on the other hand is at the end of a tree full of some of the best abilities in the game, like devious harm and death mark.  You're getting that stuff anyway.

To be honest, at the end once I got deathblow and starting killing things very quickly even as a bezerker vanguard I started using my 2h abilities, the only reason I wasn't using them earlier is that there were more important things to invest in, both in terms of ability points and in terms of stamina.  I'm not convinced that rogues have anything worth investing in more than assassinate.

Edited by ajm317, 11 May 2011 - 08:25 PM.