996 réponses à ce sujet

[ReallyRue]

I liked the voiced PC. My character in DAO had absolutely no reaction to anything, or any visible emotions. The PC in DA2 had to have a response because she could speak.

[daymz]

ReallyRue wrote...

I liked the voiced PC. My character in DAO had absolutely no reaction to anything, or any visible emotions. The PC in DA2 had to have a response because she could speak.

Yeah, but the emotions are supposed to be your own! How did YOU feel when the different events occured, and what dialogue choices did those emotions make you choose? I don't need my PC to react for me.

[PlumPaul93]

daymz wrote...

ReallyRue wrote...

I liked the voiced PC. My character in DAO had absolutely no reaction to anything, or any visible emotions. The PC in DA2 had to have a response because she could speak.

Yeah, but the emotions are supposed to be your own! How did YOU feel when the different events occured, and what dialogue choices did those emotions make you choose? I don't need my PC to react for me.

Very true, also does it really matter if the playable character is voiced or not? Anybody who worries about that is silly.

[Aradace]

My question is, what are all of you (that is, those of you who liked the "voiceless protagonist" who stares dramatically off into the middle distance.) going to do WHEN (and it is a matter of when) you dont get your "voiceless" hero(ine) back in DA3?

This isnt one of those issues that if enough people ****** and moan about it that you'll get your way. BW has decided that THEY want a voiced PC and that's all there is to it. If it bothers you that much, just be prepared to not buy DA3 and continue playing Origins forever. Me personally, I've already pretty much resigned to only renting DA3, for reasons that are not expressed here in this thread. The only way we'll end up buying/pre-ordering DA3, is if my wife decides she wants it bad enough.

It's that simple really. It's all a matter of accepting what's going to happen and doing one of two things: 1.) Playing the game and getting over this unhealthy obsession with your "voiceless" PC or 2.) Dont play it at all and keep playing Origins (or whatever other game you decide to play that suits your fancy)

It's all well and good to "want" something. However, to "want" something that you know you arent going to get, is a complete other.

[barryl89]

sleepyowlet wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

I love having a voiced protagonist. I think the people who are nerdraging over this need to get with the times and quit harping over the fact that games are evolving. I could never get into Dragon Age Origins because of the silent protagonist, I've always felt that it was peculiar to have a cinematic cutscene where one person is completely silent and you just read what they say. Unnatural, that is. I wouldn't mind multiple voices, but I think the way Dragon Age II handled it was close to perfect. My female mage had the Diplomatic personality, and she was quite the paragon of sweetness and light. My male mage had the Humorous personality, and he was consistently the rakish ne'er-do-well who ultimately chose to do the right thing (usually). The other female mage I'm currently playing (who is a Blood Mage and pro-Templar, go figure) has the Ruthless personality, and she comes across very differently than the other two I've played. So even though I'm staying in the Mage realm (the other classes just don't interest me so far) I'm having very different character experiences. I think this is the direction the industry is moving toward, and it will continue to be refined and improved as technology is refined and improved, but it's still much more of an "immersive" (I hate that word) experience for me to see and hear my character speaking, rather than imagine that the protagonist is some version of "me".

Posts like this make me want to bite into my keyboard.

Nerdraging, are we? Well, I'll try to stay civil, though I'm not sure I'll suceed.
You're on the winning side. Kudos to you. Well, some of us would like to continue using their imaginations when it comes to their PCs, thank you very much. And giving our characters a personality of their own has nothing to do with Mary-Sueing through the game.

So you've got a nice mage, a sarcastic mage and a jerk-mage. Nice. You know, when you'll play the other classes you'll be stuck with those exact personalities again. If that's fine with you, well, fine. For me it isn't. I don't like having a protagonist with the emotional range of a teaspoon who randomly starts trolling people without my say-so, just because I use more humorous responses than others. I'd like to do the role-playing myself, I don't like it when a computer does it for me.

I have about eight different Wardens, and they are all in posession of a very distinct personality. One that I made up and applied. Seven of those eight have spared Loghain - and each of them had a different reason for doing so. My two city-elves have mostly the same built, class and stat-wise, but they are very different. One is a charming trickster, and again, most of that happens inside my head, the other one was a very withdrawn, sometimes angry young woman. Both told Cailan that they killed an Arl's son because he raped their friend, but Lyrill snarled that sentence, whereas Chaeli batted her eyelashes and said it in a sugary-sweet tone. My imagination again. I feel really sorry for people who don't have one, or are too lazy to use theirs.

Just because you don't care about these things and are happy with what you get, you really don't need to look down your nose at those of us who don't share your opinion. It has nothing to do with "going with the times" - something that's new isn't necessarily better, just different.

If I want to use my imagination, I write a short story. I play games for fun.

I have seven wardens, I have four Hawkes. Will I add to my Wardens after finishing DA2 again? You bet I will.
The problems with DA2 for me are nothing to do with these fabled RPG elements, its simply crap like exploding enemies and teleporting enemies.

The voiced protagonist is the future. I undertand that you prefer it otherwise but it is here to stay.

In the end. I loved Origins more than I like DA2, but not because of the silent hero.

[JabberJaww]

Tommy6860 wrote...

Following your thinking, if you encountered one, then it isn't an RPG, if you really played an RPG, then you didn't truly encounter one. Sound confusing, I am just gong along your train of thought.

So following your thinking; Your idea of an RPG is correct and mine is wrong????

Ok so, an RPG should only be done a certain way without any variations what so ever? Did you write the RPG rules? Shouldn't an RPG be whatever the player chooses, thus being a role? 

I am just going along with your train of thought

[sleepyowlet]

Aradace wrote...

My question is, what are all of you (that is, those of you who liked the "voiceless protagonist" who stares dramatically off into the middle distance.) going to do WHEN (and it is a matter of when) you dont get your "voiceless" hero(ine) back in DA3?

This isnt one of those issues that if enough people ****** and moan about it that you'll get your way. BW has decided that THEY want a voiced PC and that's all there is to it. If it bothers you that much, just be prepared to not buy DA3 and continue playing Origins forever. Me personally, I've already pretty much resigned to only renting DA3, for reasons that are not expressed here in this thread. The only way we'll end up buying/pre-ordering DA3, is if my wife decides she wants it bad enough.

It's that simple really. It's all a matter of accepting what's going to happen and doing one of two things: 1.) Playing the game and getting over this unhealthy obsession with your "voiceless" PC or 2.) Dont play it at all and keep playing Origins (or whatever other game you decide to play that suits your fancy)

It's all well and good to "want" something. However, to "want" something that you know you arent going to get, is a complete other.

I'm going to rent it for story purposes, then I'll go back to playing Origins. The voiced character bugs me, but the count responses and apply mechanic bugs me even more, as does the paraphrasing. If they get rid of the latter two, I might be able to enjoy the game somewhat, if the voice-actor doesn't rub me the wrong way. An option to mute the protagonist would be ideal.

[Aradace]

sleepyowlet wrote...

. An option to mute the protagonist would be ideal.

Now that I'd agree with so as to stymie all parties involved.  But again, you know just as well as I do that it wont happen.  We'll get an option like that around the same time they implement a decent face editor in ME lol.

[Kimaka]

Julian_Kraynog wrote...

In my opinion, Dragon age 2 was fine, but the dialog wheel could've done us some good, by showing us exactly what Hawke would be saying, instead of us, hoping for a sentence, which resembles the our thoughts.

They need to put in some sort of toggle for players to use who do want to know exactly what is going to be said instead of being stuck with picking paraphrases. I wonder if there is a way to mod this in.

Julian_Kraynog wrote...
In the GameSpot's interview with Mike Laidlaw(I think), he said that the
dialogue wheel was perfect and could hold more options then the
conversation system in Dragon Age: Origins. He also said that it adds a
cinch of surprise, to what the dialogue going to be. That, is not
something I encourage. It simply breaks the feel.

As much as
I've played the game, not even for a minute did I imagine myself to be
Hawke. It was like watching a movie. I simply chose a personality for
that character and he went on.

I remember that interview and was shaking my head at his reasons for implementing the Dialogue Wheel over the Tree. The Dialogue Wheel holds around the same amout of options as the Tree. Three options representing the player's reactions with questions which after asked will usually lead back to the first three responses. The differences between the two are aesthetic and the paraphrases.

[AkiKishi]

Kimaka wrote...

They need to put in some sort of toggle for players to use who do want to know exactly what is going to be said instead of being stuck with picking paraphrases. I wonder if there is a way to mod this in.

The wheel is in the wrong place for that to happen. It's doable, as long as you keep only icons on the left side of the wheel and put it in the left hand corner instread of the middle pbut that seems like it would involve a lot of work(for a mod, not a new game).

Modifié par BobSmith101, 08 avril 2011 - 05:57 .

[ItsToofy]

[MorrigansLove]

PLEASE GO BACK TO LIST FORMAT!

[ReallyRue]

daymz wrote...

ReallyRue wrote...

I liked the voiced PC. My character in DAO had absolutely no reaction to anything, or any visible emotions. The PC in DA2 had to have a response because she could speak.

Yeah, but the emotions are supposed to be your own! How did YOU feel when the different events occured, and what dialogue choices did those emotions make you choose? I don't need my PC to react for me.

I would rather my character's emotions be her own, not an extension of mine. I like to create a personality and have the character act out that, not react as I do. DA2 might have forced emotions on your character sometimes, but DAO forced your character not to have emotions sometimes. Neither seemed perfect.

The reason I preferred the voice (although I think the dialogue system should be improved) was because for me, the character had more presence, and had to have screen time. In DAO, I spent many hours looking at the back of her head.

[ItsToofy]

Why do people keep saying they stare at the back of their character's head in DA:O? NPC's talk which means you are listening and looking at them, then your dialogue options come up, you select one, it doesn't just pause for 10 seconds to pretend like it's being spoken in game, it's assumed to have been spoken, you're reading the line to yourself and you feel the emotion from the line, as your own character would...holy crap...

[mdugger12]

I just think they can do more with the Dialogue Wheel and the voiced protagonist. I mean for people that just rather have a mute character there should be an option to turn the voice off. That's a personal issue. There was a previous person that posted some good ideas on this thread. With improvements there is still alot more that can be accomplished with a voiced protagonist and the wheel can be tweaked instead of just scrapping it or leaving it as it is. Adding more tone choice to the wheel then just Nice/Silly/Mean would be the first issue. Make the dialogue choices even more important in shaping the character's personality. So by act 3 when you're in a conversation the tone and options are weighted more towards how your character behaved in the previous acts. Have some sort of wheel and tree hybrid that allows you to mix and match tone with your overall statement. Like having the option to sarcastically agree or disagree with someone's statement. Begrudgingly convey the affirmative. . Not just nice/happy tone for yes, Mean/angry tone for no.

I don't know, maybe it won't help. But I don't think it's always best to scrap advancements or make changes using available technology because of a few drawbacks. I just think they should work on improving on those changes to make the system something that can be great and can add to the experience. There are so many great things possible but sometimes you have to get people out of their comfort zone first so they can appreciate them.

[Aradace]

ItsToofy wrote...

Why do people keep saying they stare at the back of their character's head in DA:O? NPC's talk which means you are listening and looking at them, then your dialogue options come up, you select one, it doesn't just pause for 10 seconds to pretend like it's being spoken in game, it's assumed to have been spoken, you're reading the line to yourself and you feel the emotion from the line, as your own character would...holy crap...

I give up lol.  The only thing I'll say at this point is this, and then leave it at that;  When you guys dont get your voiceless PC back in DA3, I'll just sit here, silently chuckling to myself all the while saying "I told you so"

There's not even the question of "What if Im wrong"?  Why? Because in this, Im not wrong.  You'll see, mark my words.  I can see the threads now full of even more nerdraging when you guys dont get your stoic hero(ine) back.  Hell, I imagine you'll even stake out the BW headquarters and then bum rush the employees with your pitchforks and torches when it happens.

[Alex Kershaw]

I support this thread

[SilentK]

Ok... I guess that I just lucked out completely on this game. I love having a voice so happy me. I think the wheel is more fun for replays than just having a list. I remember the different things to say so by the time I get to my 3:rd char it's getting a bit boring. Just made my first mean Hawke and I got to see and hear some new things, which makes me a very happy gamer. Every now and then there can be something that I get a "where did that come from"-response, but I go with the flow. I wish there was a way for me to get my warden voiced. If I could get to play the Alistair romance again with a voiced PC and having scenes with him and not just seeing him from the shoulders and up when talking to him. I would be a really really happy girl. I am so so happy that I got the game to spend time in, my projects in the lab are going completely downhill so there is nothing like having fun time with my Hawke to relax from it. Currently it's meanie Hawke =)

I guess bioware can't please everyone. If they did DA3 with no voice I would sit in a corner crying and play DA2 again and again =) Me.... I want my wheel and my voice.

[ejoslin]

 The thing I really preferred about the silent protagonist was how much MORE there was to the companions dialog.  They had to say more -- and there was so much more variety.  I would rather have twice as much dialog with a silent protagonist.  I'd rather have more varied answers.
I didn't mind the voiced protagonist, but I think there was a huge tradeoff there.  Shorter and fewer conversations.  For example, here are two clips of love confessions.  Zevran's (leading to a breakup, but still gets the point across) and Fenris'.  I cut off the non-romance part of Fenris' confession, but I think that's fair because Zevran has a separate conversation when establishing a friendship (which is also longer than Fenris' confession).  And keep in mind that not only is Zevran's confession longer time wise, Fenris' is extended by voiced Hawke -- take Hawke's part out or make it silent, and it would be even shorter.
I just prefer more interaction over the voiced protagonist.  

Then again, I liked the increased companion talk while out and about.  But that's really nothing to do with whether the protagonist is voiced.

[JediHealerCosmin]

Alex Kershaw wrote...

I support this thread

Same here. What I didn't like at all are the flirting lines. Everytime I pressed that heart icon I busted out in laughter (mostly because of the tone). 

[Warheadz]

Aradace wrote...

I give up lol.  The only thing I'll say at this point is this, and then leave it at that;  When you guys dont get your voiceless PC back in DA3, I'll just sit here, silently chuckling to myself all the while saying "I told you so"

There's not even the question of "What if Im wrong"?  Why? Because in this, Im not wrong.  You'll see, mark my words.  I can see the threads now full of even more nerdraging when you guys dont get your stoic hero(ine) back.  Hell, I imagine you'll even stake out the BW headquarters and then bum rush the employees with your pitchforks and torches when it happens.

Ahh... Must be nice living in that bubble of yours.

[Aradace]

Warheadz wrote...

Aradace wrote...

I give up lol.  The only thing I'll say at this point is this, and then leave it at that;  When you guys dont get your voiceless PC back in DA3, I'll just sit here, silently chuckling to myself all the while saying "I told you so"

There's not even the question of "What if Im wrong"?  Why? Because in this, Im not wrong.  You'll see, mark my words.  I can see the threads now full of even more nerdraging when you guys dont get your stoic hero(ine) back.  Hell, I imagine you'll even stake out the BW headquarters and then bum rush the employees with your pitchforks and torches when it happens.

Ahh... Must be nice living in that bubble of yours.

[Sylvius the Mad]

nicethugbert wrote...

Sandal had more personality than The Warden in DA:O.

That's your failure, not the game's.  If the Warden didn't have a personality it is because you failed to give him one.

Scimal wrote...

How odd. So even if the outcomes were all the same, regardless of dialogue choice, as long as the dialogue choice is fully elucidated, you're fine? Curious.

How is that curious?  I want to play the character.  That the character behaves as I direct is all the feedback I need.  The other characters are not mine, so their behaviour is beyond my control.  As such, I cannot reasonably judge my roleplaying success based on their reactions.

Except intonation of the delivered lines and usually facial expressions. The latter forms an entire core of non-verbal communication, and the former holds more weight than the words themselves, depending on the society you're in.

DAO allowed the former, though.  That content just wasn't displayed on screen.  You're taking the absence of evidence of evidence as evidence of absence, and that's an error of reasoning.

The facial expressions is a simple problem to solve - just don't show the PC's face during conversations.

And regardless, in those cases where DAO did give the Warden facial expressions, they were usually the wrong facial expressions - especially since they were always teh same character to character, even though different characters would have reacted very differently to the same situations.

I think the consumers have already spoken. If the current method weren't favored, the old method would be outselling it.

Kindly point me to a current example of the old method.

Just look at the most notorious aspects of DA2 - it's not the VO, it's not the dialogue wheel, they're the repeated environments and the meandering story. If VO (or lack thereof) was important to BW's target audience, there would be just as much an outcry about it as there was when ME1 was released (which has since become one of the best Sci-Fi RPGs on many a list).

The lack of outcry may well be due to the change of expectation, but that doesn't mean that the consumers actually prefer this new approach.  Just that they expect it.  Perhaps they're resigned to it.
 
Your points on this are conjecture.

The game has always failed like that. It doesn't matter which one you're talking about, there are restrictions due to budget and time. You couldn't be homosexual in Baldur's Gate, you couldn't play a Tiefling in NWN, your dialogue choices were always limited to what the authors chose - regardless of the game.

That the game's scope is always limited doesn't require that the game's scope be as limited as it is in DA2 (or ME2, for that matter).

In DA2, right after a brief tutorial you're dropped immediately into a dangerous situation where you're beset upon by Darkspawn, and you need to get away.  What does Hawke do?

In BG, right after the tutorial you're dropped immediately into a dangerous situation where you're beset upon by assassins, and you need to get away.  What does the PC do?

There's the difference.  In DA2, there's only one answer.  Every iteration of Hawke does exactly the same thing (he flees to Kirkwall).  But in BG, there are many answers, because the player is free to make decisions within the broader story, rather than being carried along whether he likes it or not.

Until then, if you're trying to say that DA2 is a bad RPG because its scope is limited by the imagination of the team working on it, I don't know what to tell you but - Yeah, that's how it works for every game ever made until it's modded by the community.

It's not bad that the game is limited by the team's imagination.  It's bad that the game is limited to the team's imagination.  They've left no space at all for the player to try different things.

I am not suggesting that the designers should foresee a greater range of possible behaviours and specifically accommodate them.  I'm saying the designers should make the game less restrictive, thus allowing the players to behave as they see fit, regardless of whether the designers thought of it.

Build a coherent world and set the player loose.  Sure, there's a story, and the story moves along as it does, but forcing the player to do only those things that the designers planned makes for a terrible game.

[Sylvius the Mad]

F-C wrote...

and how exactly is that different than in DAO?

in DAO you had to choose an option from a pre-made list, you did not get to input your own dialogue.

Even assuming you're right (which you aren't necessarily, depending how much abstraction you're willing to tolerate in the dialogue system), you did still get to choose tone and intent, which DA2 instead supplies for you.

i also know that i had to reload conversations countless times in DAO because the response it gave on the list did not come out the way i thought it would.

That doesn't make any sense at all.  DAO's lines weren't voiced, so the game never gave you any information about how they were delivered.  As such, you could choose to have them delivered however you wanted.

no matter what they do, you will always be forced to choose from a pre-made list,

But the more ambiguous the entries on that list, the better.