996 réponses à ce sujet

[Galad22]

Siansonea II wrote...

Yay streamlined, boring and easy!! If the alternative is overly complex and ridiculously abundant inventory management standing in for character depth and complexity of story. I grow weary of Item Acquisition: The Role Playing Game. But maybe I'm just not a dedicated enough hardcore RPG fan devoted to the established norms of the genre. I'm actually okay with that.

Why can't you leave anything to people who enjoy complex rpgs, most other genres are already in pockets of people like you, there is even ME as a sort of rpg for you.

I am starting to think more and more that perhaps I have become too old for gaming, there is less and less games that I enjoy or even care every year, and then people like you are happy that their seguels are butchered.

It just seems a bit selfish to me, you've got games why can't you leave any for us. Of course I am being similarly selfish here.

If I sound bit bitter here, that's because I am.

[Aradace]

Merced652 wrote...

Aradace wrote...

This thread has become epic winning lol, seriously. It's fully of folks complaining about and wanting something that they're not going to get in the next DA game. In fact, this thread is so winning, it's CHARLIE SHEEN winning XD

I'm confused about your position and motivation for existing on this planet as well as in this thread. No **** sherlock, i'm pretty sure anyone with any sense can see bioware has sailed that ship and will never ever under any circumstances return to a silent protag. I mean, do you want a ****ing medal for predicting what we were saying nearly a year ago? 

Yes, yes I do.  And a cookie.  And some pie too if you dont mind.  As for my motivation for existing on the planet? That's easy, because dying would just be too easy when my mere existance apparently displeases people like you to no end.  Which is so much more fun.  As for existance in the thread?  For the humor factor mainly.

[John Epler]

This is getting waaaay too heated and personal. Let's dial back the rhetoric and bring it back to discussion of the topic without the appeals to emotion.

[the_one_54321]

Galad22 wrote...
I am starting to think more and more that perhaps I have become too old for gaming, there is less and less games that I enjoy or even care every year, and then people like you are happy that their seguels are butchered.

No, it's not that you are too old. It's that for some reason the newer crop of gamers want all games to have mechanics or options that are relatively the same. That's what baffles me. Why is it that every game has to be relatively the same as every other game???

What baffles me about it even more is when I hear it from the developers, like Mke Laidlaw. He speaks about "preventing stagntaion" and progress in the types of games made, but what he is describing is actually the process by which DA is becoming more like every other game that is released.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 08 avril 2011 - 10:27 .

[Robbiesan]

I like the wheel and voice. What I didn't like were some of the responses, not at all what you thought would be said. That is pretty annoying.

[Sylvius the Mad]

LoveAsThouWilt wrote...

I must say right now: DOWN with this thread.

Sure, I know its opinion but just like it is opinions so is mine that not have the very things that this thread is stating it wants to be rid of would make me NOT purchase a game. Any game. Modern day gaming - I demand that my games, especially centered in roleplaying, have a character that is voiced because that makes it feel like they actually exist, that they are THERE in that world. Hence, why I couldn't get attached to Dragon Age Origins very well. It was too meh for me, even though I completed it, my Warden just didn't exist. No voice. Emotional impact with the story goes right out the window.

Why the issue with the dialogue wheel unless you complain that it gives you fewer choices, then I could agree with that a bit, but once again if its attached to "not giving the PC a voice" then I am not for it. I want my character voiced, and I want to be able to choose within reason what they can say (roleplaying, once again).

non-interactive are a bad thing? This I never understood, perhaps because I have played Metal Gear Solid but, why are cutscenes bad? They move the narrative forward and give cool scenes that could otherwise could not be done in the game (IE camera angles and such for filming such things). So long as the graphics between cutscenes and gameplay are the same (IE I hate CGI cutscenes.... and trailers... when the game looks nothing like it. GIVE ME THE CGI GAME AT THAT RATE!... But that is another matter entirely.)

Your position, taken altogether, explains wh we disagree.

Non-interactive cutscenes are bad because they feature my character behaving without my input.  If he acts without me telling him what to do, then he's probably doing things I don't want him to do.  He can't be my character if he's doing that.

But you don't want to design a character.  This is demonstrated by your requirement that it be shown to you as existing within the game world, rather than you positing its existence as a starting point.

[Aradace]

JohnEpler wrote...

This is getting waaaay too heated and personal. Let's dial back the rhetoric and bring it back to discussion of the topic without the appeals to emotion.

and dont forget to have some fun with it lol.

[Galad22]

the_one_54321 wrote...
No, it's not that you are too old. It's that for some reason the newer crop of gamers want all games to have mechanics or options that are relatively the same. That's what baffles me. Why is it that every game has to be relatively the same as every other game???

What baffles me about it even more is when I hear it from the developers, like Mke Laidlaw. He speaks about "preventing stagntaion" and progress in the types of games made, but what he is describing is actually the process by which DA is becoming more like every other game that is released.

Indeed making every game more or less the same is not evolution.

Diversity is good thing in everything, it annoys me that some people can't see that.

[Tirigon]

Further food for discussion:

Why do we have cutscenes at all?

If we wanted to watch, we could (and WOULD) watch movies instead of playing a game, and lets face it - most cutscenes are pretty bad.

[AlanC9]

the_one_54321 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
We've had Bio and Bethesda styles coexisting for years.

At least we did up until DAII. No choices and voiced protagonist in there. (if there's one thing DAII proved conclusively, it was that the choices you made had a strictly superficial effect on the plot, if even that)

So where are we going to get choices, and where are we going to get silent protagonists anymore? 

Those are two different "we"s there, I believe.

I honestly don't know where you're going to go for a non-voiced protagonist. I haven't been following Skyrim. What are they doing for dialog?

I guess there's always Spiderweb.

[Stegoceras]

LiquidGrape wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

At least we did up until DAII. No choices and voiced protagonist in there. (if there's one thing DAII proved conclusively, it was that the choices you made had a strictly superficial effect on the plot, if even that)

So where are we going to get choices, and where are we going to get silent protagonists anymore? 

Excuse me, but do you think the story of an RPG must invariably be steered by the player character?
Can it not serve just as impactful a purpose to make the framework of the story more defined and focused, so as to benefit the drama rather than the player's wish to influence every given aspect of its progression?

Regardless, you make plenty of choices in Dragon Age 2. Your disposition, your morals, your rapport with your companions...aren't these meaningful choices? And within the context of the greater picture at whose whims you make these choices, doesn't that add up to something very genuine? Being a victim of circumstance, but attempting to cope as best you can with what options you are able to make?
Isn't that just as legitimate an approach?

Nothing wrong with making a story more focused and stripping you of a choice here and there, but in my opinion it's so roughly done in DA and without an ounce of proper motivation that it might as well have been a bad movie, to me it completly broke any form of immersion into the game which is a downright shame and never ment I could really see the big picture at all, I was hopping from one place to another, just doing stuff I didn't care for.

and this is my opinion people, please don't call me an illiterate fool (or any other nice way of saying I suck in the many ways you guys can) I can only say I'm happy for the people that did get immersed in the game, wish I were you guys. I'd rather love the game then go 'meh, mediocre?' alas it wasn't ment to be.

[Merced652]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

LoveAsThouWilt wrote...

I must say right now: DOWN with this thread.

Sure, I know its opinion but just like it is opinions so is mine that not have the very things that this thread is stating it wants to be rid of would make me NOT purchase a game. Any game. Modern day gaming - I demand that my games, especially centered in roleplaying, have a character that is voiced because that makes it feel like they actually exist, that they are THERE in that world. Hence, why I couldn't get attached to Dragon Age Origins very well. It was too meh for me, even though I completed it, my Warden just didn't exist. No voice. Emotional impact with the story goes right out the window.

Why the issue with the dialogue wheel unless you complain that it gives you fewer choices, then I could agree with that a bit, but once again if its attached to "not giving the PC a voice" then I am not for it. I want my character voiced, and I want to be able to choose within reason what they can say (roleplaying, once again).

non-interactive are a bad thing? This I never understood, perhaps because I have played Metal Gear Solid but, why are cutscenes bad? They move the narrative forward and give cool scenes that could otherwise could not be done in the game (IE camera angles and such for filming such things). So long as the graphics between cutscenes and gameplay are the same (IE I hate CGI cutscenes.... and trailers... when the game looks nothing like it. GIVE ME THE CGI GAME AT THAT RATE!... But that is another matter entirely.)

Your position, taken altogether, explains wh we disagree.

Non-interactive cutscenes are bad because they feature my character behaving without my input.  If he acts without me telling him what to do, then he's probably doing things I don't want him to do.  He can't be my character if he's doing that.

But you don't want to design a character.  This is demonstrated by your requirement that it be shown to you as existing within the game world, rather than you positing its existence as a starting point.

Exactly. Which given his requirements it seems to me the only direction in which a game like that can evolve is a convergence with movies. But least John will always have a job. 

[Any0day]

LiquidGrape wrote...

Excuse me, but do you think the story of an RPG must invariably be steered by the player character?
Can it not serve just as impactful a purpose to make the framework of the story more defined and focused, so as to benefit the drama rather than the player's wish to influence every given aspect of its progression?

If I wanted a focused narrative or an impactful story, I'd go read a book. RPGs are supposed to be about choices and unfocused narrative to give the ''illusion'' that you are writing your own story. Too many cutscenes make me feel like I'm watching a really bad B-movie and I end up quitting (black ops anyone, cod?). I'm not saying DA2 is at that point (yet?), but I honestly started to feel that way by the end.

Regardless, you make plenty of choices in Dragon Age 2. Your disposition, your morals, your rapport with your companions...aren't these meaningful choices? 

None of the choices are meaningful - whether you side with the templars or the mages, you end up fighting both. Hell, even if you're a blood mage teamed up with 4 other mages --- you can save a certain group and mages, kill a templar, and not only do the templar gaurds not bat an eye, but the same group says you're working for them and tries to kill you! (?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????)

I'm currently playing through mass effect 2 (thanks bioware), and to be honest, I'm enjoying the experience a lot more than DA2. Choices matter to me; I feel a certain connection to the characters and there's an overarching story keeping me motivated/

Even though I'm still not crazy about the conversation wheel, it's a hell of a lot less broken in that game and my character doesn't go on long rants without my explicit input. I will agree though - they should have some way of telling you exactly what you're going to say because I clicked something like "It wasn't my fault," and he ended up saying "You need to back off right now *pulls gun*" lol....

[Sylvius the Mad]

Tirigon wrote...

Well, for me, better graphics is simply better. Because of more details, higher quality etc.

That does however NOT mean that a new art direction is better.
In fact, in many cases I much prefer the STYLE of older games over new ones.

But if the style is the same, but more detailed, then that´s an improvement.

But if the character generator doesn't offer the options you want, then you'restuck.

Whereas, a 2D portait import system allows you to use literally any image you can find.  Look at my avatar.  That's the portrait I used in BG and BG2.  I certainly haven't seen a character generator that has let me have greying temples.

[Sylvius the Mad]

LiquidGrape wrote...

Excuse me, but do you think the story of an RPG must invariably be steered by the player character?

I'd say that the story of an RPG always is steered by the player character.  The story of an RPG is the story of the PC.  Maybe he doesn't play a central role in world events, but that he's the PC makes him the focus of the RPG's story.

Regardless, you make plenty of choices in Dragon Age 2. Your disposition, your morals, your rapport with your companions...aren't these meaningful choices?

You don't get to make them, though.  In DA2, the obfuscatory dialogue system prevents you from choosing your character's positions on these issues in any coherent way.

And within the context of the greater picture at whose whims you make these choices, doesn't that add up to something very genuine?

I think you're looking at it backward.  The character isn't built though the combination of in-game choices.  The in-game choices are instead artefacts of the character's design, which exists prior to the choices being presented.

[the_one_54321]

I don't think that the DA:O character generator was lacking in many options at all... there are some seriously diverse characters out there.

[Sylvius the Mad]

the_one_54321 wrote...

I don't think that the DA:O character generator was lacking in many options at all... there are some seriously diverse characters out there.

The DAO toolset certainly offered many options.  The character generator was somewhat more limited.

The only real complaint I have about DAO on that front, though, is the hair colours (you could only have one at a time, so no patches of grey possible), and the lack of beard variety.

I realised some time ago that my default character basically looks like Roger Delgado, but actually designing Roger Delgado in character generators is quite difficult.

[Tirigon]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Well, for me, better graphics is simply better. Because of more details, higher quality etc.

That does however NOT mean that a new art direction is better.
In fact, in many cases I much prefer the STYLE of older games over new ones.

But if the style is the same, but more detailed, then that´s an improvement.

But if the character generator doesn't offer the options you want, then you'restuck.

Whereas, a 2D portait import system allows you to use literally any image you can find.  Look at my avatar.  That's the portrait I used in BG and BG2.  I certainly haven't seen a character generator that has let me have greying temples.

True. Maybe 2D has something in its favor after all.

I wouldn´t play it though - I don´t need absolute high-end graphics, but a bit, yes....

[Sylvius the Mad]

Tirigon wrote...

True. Maybe 2D has something in its favor after all.

I wouldn´t play it though - I don´t need absolute high-end graphics, but a bit, yes....

I'm just talking about character portraits.  I'd prefer the actual game world to be 3D.
 
Though, I don't see what gameplay benefit we've gained from any advancement past NWN - certainly not in BioWare's games.  In some other games detailed 3D environments have added quite a bit to gameplay (Thief comes to mind), but I can't point to a single gameplay benefit from higher-end graphics in a BioWare game beyond the basic ability to move the camera (which we got in NWN).

[Aleksandar Shepard]

marinerzz wrote...

If you want to fix your reputation after the complete debacle of DA2!

I want to know exactly what I'm telling my character to say, not just a summary (which gives the wrong impression often).

I don't want my PC to have a voice because it will never sound exactly how my character does in my mind and makes the character less my own.

All the non-interactive cinematics destroy immersion because I'm no longer controlling my character.

Fix these problems, i.e. make DA3 like DA:O but without a dumb romance character who only likes you if you're cartoonishly evil like Morrigan was, and you can start making good games again. Don't fix these problems and you will fail sooner rather than later!

I disagree.Only thing that should be fixed is repeating dungeons.And seriously ppl stop with critics....

[/IMG]http://www.unwinnable.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Patrick-Stewart-More-PewPew.jpg[/IMG]

[mesmerizedish]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I'm just talking about character portraits.  I'd prefer the actual game world to be 3D.
 
Though, I don't see what gameplay benefit we've gained from any advancement past NWN - certainly not in BioWare's games.  In some other games detailed 3D environments have added quite a bit to gameplay (Thief comes to mind), but I can't point to a single gameplay benefit from higher-end graphics in a BioWare game beyond the basic ability to move the camera (which we got in NWN).

Graphics trends universally strive for photorealism. Better graphics mean it's easier to achieve those moments that you forget its a game because it looks so real.

[Veracruz]

marinerzz wrote...

If you want to fix your reputation after the complete debacle of DA2!

I want to know exactly what I'm telling my character to say, not just a summary (which gives the wrong impression often).

I don't want my PC to have a voice because it will never sound exactly how my character does in my mind and makes the character less my own.

All the non-interactive cinematics destroy immersion because I'm no longer controlling my character.

Fix these problems, i.e. make DA3 like DA:O but without a dumb romance character who only likes you if you're cartoonishly evil like Morrigan was, and you can start making good games again. Don't fix these problems and you will fail sooner rather than later!

-Those are not requirements for a ,supposedly needed by some, fix of reputation.
-To know exactly what the character is going to say... yeah, sometimes the idea doesn't match very well what it's really said (no match between tone and words). But not a must. We can go the Wizarddry VII routine and let the players write what they characters say (an dhope for the NPCs to identify any of the words used as plot related).
-Your character doesn't sound exactly like you imagine it? Surely he doesn't look exaclty how you imagine it. Or moves like you imagine he moves. Or even make poses while idle as you would imagine it. Weak argument is weak. Reasonable, but weak.
-Cinematics break your control over your character.. Er... Also does autotravel. Or autoattack. Do you want control of the character in sex scenes too? Ops! Nevermind that last one. Cinematics by themselves are not a problem. Abuse of them is though. Maybe some action-timed decisions in some (more interactivity?) a la Alpha Protocol could be nice.
-You are no one but another user on the internet that thinks that can order others what they must do. While most probably denying everyone else the right to do the same to you. Eat humble pie, please. BioWare could try to make DA III to be a DAO II and still fail simply because, as with DA II, EA gives them only two years and BioWare must face what elements to streamline as much as possible to meet deadlines while still trying to keep the game fun. But what do I know, right? You already predicted what will happen unless they do what you order.

[Merced652]

Hyperbole is great right? The difference in most of your examples being that those are expected immersion breaks vs unexpected. But good show chap, next time the bro should just expect to never be immersed!

Modifié par Merced652, 08 avril 2011 - 11:14 .

[Tirigon]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

 
Though, I don't see what gameplay benefit we've gained from any advancement past NWN - certainly not in BioWare's games.  In some other games detailed 3D environments have added quite a bit to gameplay (Thief comes to mind), but I can't point to a single gameplay benefit from higher-end graphics in a BioWare game beyond the basic ability to move the camera (which we got in NWN).

Indeed. But that is more a problem of BioWare games being... sub-par (to say it nicely) when it comes to graphics.

But I think all can agree that DAO exactly as it is now, only with more detailed graphic would be an improvement over DAO now (albeit a rather minor one).

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Lol, I'm still for suggesting that those elements be optional.

The wheel w/ paraphrase or list w/ full text should be changed in the menu and voiced or mute protagonist should be chosen when creating a character.

Everybody wins as far as I'm concerned.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

But what if I want choices and a voiced PC and some non-interactive cutscenes? Like, say, The Witcher?

Then play The Witcher and its sequels.  Clearly those games are already being made.  Your games already exist; you don't need BioWare to make them.

Where are my games?  Where are the games with pausable stat-driven combat and a silent PC?

Pray Dungeon Siege 3 has some unexpected depth.



But on the issue of graphics, in an RPG, photorealism is so much less important than having a good art style.