996 réponses à ce sujet

[mdugger12]

sleepyowlet wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

The bottom line is that people don't like change, so all these people who grew up with this very abstract unvoiced pick-from-a-list response paradigm just can't seem to embrace the new system. And it all comes down to that ridiculous concept of "immersion". These people want to "be" in the game themselves. Well, these aren't first-person games, they're THIRD person games. It's not "you" in the game, it never was, and it never will be, no matter how much you recite dialog aloud or silently in your mind (which, by the way, is not the epitome of imagination). Personally I find that whole mindset foreign, I play an RPG to experience the protagonist's story, and influence variables. I do not project myself into the game. For one thing, playing a game as "me" has zero replay value. For two thing, I would be limited in LIs and other choices, if all I did was what *I* would do.

This whole argument reminds me of people's reactions at the end of the silent film era. "Sound is ruining movies! It'll never catch on! It doesn't suit the medium!"

Ugh. "This ridiculous concept if immersion" is what Role-playing-games are all about. You might want to look up what the phrase means. The perspective you see your character/avatar from has nothing whatsoever to do with this - some people just like seeing where their feet are, or like actually seeing the spiffy new armour their avatar is dressed in.
CRPGs are about emulating a Pen and Paper role-playing session. They encourage the player to become somebody else (role-playing). Of course the medium is limited by it's very nature, but it can still emulate the very essentials - which is making up a character (pesonality and all) and role-playing it. The dialogue-wheel, the count the responses and apply mechanic and, yes, the voiced character take that away from me. I'm no longer playing my own character, I play BioWare's character. This is not role-playing, this is playing an adventure game - which is a completely different animal.
If you don't project yourself into the character (mind you, this has nothing to do with playing as yourself), you are not role-playing. If you don't like projecting yourself into a character, feel what they feel, you might want to play a different kind of game. So please stop insulting and belittling others for actually wanting to role-play in a role-playing-game.

I totally se where you're coming from and I agree that aspects of the game need to stay true to the aspects of what and RPG experience is. But it doesn't seem like all of the changes people are fighting against truly take away from the experience. Just because a game used certain methods as a way to overcome limitations that the industry had to deal with 5, 10, or 15 years ago doesn't mean that they shouldn't use everything available to them now because people are used to the game playing a certain way. The genre has to be innovative and move forward to compete and survive.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't have options to not use certain features, especially if it's something like voice acting which can be muted. But you can't expect any business to cater to  a group of their customers that simply doesn't want change regardless of function. Following that kind of thinking, forget 2D, we would still just be playing text based RPG. Or simply breaking out the pen and paper.

[erynnar]

sleepyowlet wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

The bottom line is that people don't like change, so all these people who grew up with this very abstract unvoiced pick-from-a-list response paradigm just can't seem to embrace the new system. And it all comes down to that ridiculous concept of "immersion". These people want to "be" in the game themselves. Well, these aren't first-person games, they're THIRD person games. It's not "you" in the game, it never was, and it never will be, no matter how much you recite dialog aloud or silently in your mind (which, by the way, is not the epitome of imagination). Personally I find that whole mindset foreign, I play an RPG to experience the protagonist's story, and influence variables. I do not project myself into the game. For one thing, playing a game as "me" has zero replay value. For two thing, I would be limited in LIs and other choices, if all I did was what *I* would do.

This whole argument reminds me of people's reactions at the end of the silent film era. "Sound is ruining movies! It'll never catch on! It doesn't suit the medium!"

Ugh. "This ridiculous concept if immersion" is what Role-playing-games are all about. You might want to look up what the phrase means. The perspective you see your character/avatar from has nothing whatsoever to do with this - some people just like seeing where their feet are, or like actually seeing the spiffy new armour their avatar is dressed in.
CRPGs are about emulating a Pen and Paper role-playing session. They encourage the player to become somebody else (role-playing). Of course the medium is limited by it's very nature, but it can still emulate the very essentials - which is making up a character (pesonality and all) and role-playing it. The dialogue-wheel, the count the responses and apply mechanic and, yes, the voiced character take that away from me. I'm no longer playing my own character, I play BioWare's character. This is not role-playing, this is playing an adventure game - which is a completely different animal.
If you don't project yourself into the character (mind you, this has nothing to do with playing as yourself), you are not role-playing. If you don't like projecting yourself into a character, feel what they feel, you might want to play a different kind of game. So please stop insulting and belittling others for actually wanting to role-play in a role-playing-game.

And this!  ^  sleepyowlet hit the nail on the head. Hawke was BioWare's character, a car on rails.

[Tirigon]

AlanC9 wrote...

Merced652 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Sorry I missed this earlier
The problem is that TW isn't a substitute unless you're also happy with twitch combat and a precreated PC.

Yet bioware is increasingly headed down that road and i haven't once you seen you speak out against it. 

True. I've had no reason to. I liked TW, myself, although I didn't think it was as great as some of its supporters claim. I'm not against twitch combat -- either stat based or twitch is fine with me, though I wouldn't want stat-based to go away completely. And Bio simply hasn't gone to precreated PCs like Geralt yet -- Hawke is hardly any more predefined than my Bhaalspawns were. Obviously, that means that I don't agree with some of the arguments here against a VO protagonist, though as I said I'm neutral on the feature.

The point I was making is that Bio games and CD Projekt games aren't fungible even for someone who likes both styles, so telling someone to go play TW and sequels isn't productive.

But the Witcher is totally stat-based combat, not "twitch".

Hit-chance, chance to evade - everything is based on your stats.

Only the way those stats are shown is quite unusual (and a bit hidden compared to DA).

[Siansonea]

So my question is, if you want to play an emulation of pen-and-paper role playing games, why not just play pen-and-paper role playing games? Why have all the trappings of a video game? Pen-and-paper games are nothing BUT imagination. I play them, I played in one earlier tonight. It was a Fading Suns game, and my character was a 35-year-old male bodyguard with a mistress and a young son, a former army man, who because of an injury was asked to serve the Emperor by accompanying one of his Questing Knights, who is also a blood relative of the Emperor. I can put myself into a character, believe you me. I don't lack imagination. But when I'm sitting at that table I'm speaking as my character, the other players are speaking as their characters. There isn't anybody at the table holding up flash cards of what they're saying while they remain mute, so that the rest of us can "imagine" how they might say things.

You people say "immersion" is imagining your character speaking. Well, I find that to be the OPPOSITE of immersive. It is abstract. Maybe I don't have the same kind of imagination some of you have, but feel free to disparage me if it makes you feel better. But the voiced protagonist ship has sailed, and I'm on board with it. If the rest of you don't like these adventure games you revile so strongly, then I suggest finding a new outlet for that much-vaunted imagination. I would suggest writing or pen-and-paper role playing games to fill the void. Personally I think the old-fashioned D&D games are a lot of fun, and MUCH more creative and imagination stimulating than any computer game could ever be.

[Merced652]

Siansonea II wrote...

So my question is, if you want to play an emulation of pen-and-paper role playing games, why not just play pen-and-paper role playing games? Why have all the trappings of a video game? Pen-and-paper games are nothing BUT imagination. I play them, I played in one earlier tonight. It was a Fading Suns game, and my character was a 35-year-old male bodyguard with a mistress and a young son, a former army man, who because of an injury was asked to serve the Emperor by accompanying one of his Questing Knights, who is also a blood relative of the Emperor. I can put myself into a character, believe you me. I don't lack imagination. But when I'm sitting at that table I'm speaking as my character, the other players are speaking as their characters. There isn't anybody at the table holding up flash cards of what they're saying while they remain mute, so that the rest of us can "imagine" how they might say things.

You people say "immersion" is imagining your character speaking. Well, I find that to be the OPPOSITE of immersive. It is abstract. Maybe I don't have the same kind of imagination some of you have, but feel free to disparage me if it makes you feel better. But the voiced protagonist ship has sailed, and I'm on board with it. If the rest of you don't like these adventure games you revile so strongly, then I suggest finding a new outlet for that much-vaunted imagination. I would suggest writing or pen-and-paper role playing games to fill the void. Personally I think the old-fashioned D&D games are a lot of fun, and MUCH more creative and imagination stimulating than any computer game could ever be.

Accessibility. 

Anything else you want to drool on about?

[Siansonea]

Merced652 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

So my question is, if you want to play an emulation of pen-and-paper role playing games, why not just play pen-and-paper role playing games? Why have all the trappings of a video game? Pen-and-paper games are nothing BUT imagination. I play them, I played in one earlier tonight. It was a Fading Suns game, and my character was a 35-year-old male bodyguard with a mistress and a young son, a former army man, who because of an injury was asked to serve the Emperor by accompanying one of his Questing Knights, who is also a blood relative of the Emperor. I can put myself into a character, believe you me. I don't lack imagination. But when I'm sitting at that table I'm speaking as my character, the other players are speaking as their characters. There isn't anybody at the table holding up flash cards of what they're saying while they remain mute, so that the rest of us can "imagine" how they might say things.

You people say "immersion" is imagining your character speaking. Well, I find that to be the OPPOSITE of immersive. It is abstract. Maybe I don't have the same kind of imagination some of you have, but feel free to disparage me if it makes you feel better. But the voiced protagonist ship has sailed, and I'm on board with it. If the rest of you don't like these adventure games you revile so strongly, then I suggest finding a new outlet for that much-vaunted imagination. I would suggest writing or pen-and-paper role playing games to fill the void. Personally I think the old-fashioned D&D games are a lot of fun, and MUCH more creative and imagination stimulating than any computer game could ever be.

Accessibility. 

Anything else you want to drool on about?

Ah yes, "accessibility", because I'm mentally handicapped or something. Well, I hope that condescending, superior attitude keeps you warm on those cold, cold nights of having to play games made for us plebs.

[Merced652]

Siansonea II wrote...

Merced652 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

So my question is, if you want to play an emulation of pen-and-paper role playing games, why not just play pen-and-paper role playing games? Why have all the trappings of a video game? Pen-and-paper games are nothing BUT imagination. I play them, I played in one earlier tonight. It was a Fading Suns game, and my character was a 35-year-old male bodyguard with a mistress and a young son, a former army man, who because of an injury was asked to serve the Emperor by accompanying one of his Questing Knights, who is also a blood relative of the Emperor. I can put myself into a character, believe you me. I don't lack imagination. But when I'm sitting at that table I'm speaking as my character, the other players are speaking as their characters. There isn't anybody at the table holding up flash cards of what they're saying while they remain mute, so that the rest of us can "imagine" how they might say things.

You people say "immersion" is imagining your character speaking. Well, I find that to be the OPPOSITE of immersive. It is abstract. Maybe I don't have the same kind of imagination some of you have, but feel free to disparage me if it makes you feel better. But the voiced protagonist ship has sailed, and I'm on board with it. If the rest of you don't like these adventure games you revile so strongly, then I suggest finding a new outlet for that much-vaunted imagination. I would suggest writing or pen-and-paper role playing games to fill the void. Personally I think the old-fashioned D&D games are a lot of fun, and MUCH more creative and imagination stimulating than any computer game could ever be.

Accessibility. 

Anything else you want to drool on about?

Ah yes, "accessibility", because I'm mentally handicapped or something. Well, I hope that condescending, superior attitude keeps you warm on those cold, cold nights of having to play games made for us plebs.

I find it hilarious after all your retarded bull**** in this thread you want to lecture me on condescension. ****ing amazing. 

[Tirigon]

Siansonea II wrote...

So my question is, if you want to play an emulation of pen-and-paper role playing games, why not just play pen-and-paper role playing games? Why have all the trappings of a video game? Pen-and-paper games are nothing BUT imagination. I play them, I played in one earlier tonight. It was a Fading Suns game, and my character was a 35-year-old male bodyguard with a mistress and a young son, a former army man, who because of an injury was asked to serve the Emperor by accompanying one of his Questing Knights, who is also a blood relative of the Emperor. I can put myself into a character, believe you me. I don't lack imagination. But when I'm sitting at that table I'm speaking as my character, the other players are speaking as their characters. There isn't anybody at the table holding up flash cards of what they're saying while they remain mute, so that the rest of us can "imagine" how they might say things.

You people say "immersion" is imagining your character speaking. Well, I find that to be the OPPOSITE of immersive. It is abstract. Maybe I don't have the same kind of imagination some of you have, but feel free to disparage me if it makes you feel better. But the voiced protagonist ship has sailed, and I'm on board with it. If the rest of you don't like these adventure games you revile so strongly, then I suggest finding a new outlet for that much-vaunted imagination. I would suggest writing or pen-and-paper role playing games to fill the void. Personally I think the old-fashioned D&D games are a lot of fun, and MUCH more creative and imagination stimulating than any computer game could ever be.

Pen-and-Paper RPGs are kinda hard to play if you know exactly ONE person who´s interested in that, and she lives 150km away from me.

Sadly, RPGs are not a common hobby in my generation:(

[mdugger12]

When it's all said and done the voiced protagonist isn't going anywhere no matter how you rationalize your dislike of it. Accessibility is making a game that meets certain basic expectations that new gamers have for a game they purchase. Not ignoring them by using out dated features just because some fans are comfortable with them. If you were able to turn a lack of voice acting into a plus by deciding it leaves more to the imagination, kudos.

[Siansonea]

Merced652 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Merced652 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

So my question is, if you want to play an emulation of pen-and-paper role playing games, why not just play pen-and-paper role playing games? Why have all the trappings of a video game? Pen-and-paper games are nothing BUT imagination. I play them, I played in one earlier tonight. It was a Fading Suns game, and my character was a 35-year-old male bodyguard with a mistress and a young son, a former army man, who because of an injury was asked to serve the Emperor by accompanying one of his Questing Knights, who is also a blood relative of the Emperor. I can put myself into a character, believe you me. I don't lack imagination. But when I'm sitting at that table I'm speaking as my character, the other players are speaking as their characters. There isn't anybody at the table holding up flash cards of what they're saying while they remain mute, so that the rest of us can "imagine" how they might say things.

You people say "immersion" is imagining your character speaking. Well, I find that to be the OPPOSITE of immersive. It is abstract. Maybe I don't have the same kind of imagination some of you have, but feel free to disparage me if it makes you feel better. But the voiced protagonist ship has sailed, and I'm on board with it. If the rest of you don't like these adventure games you revile so strongly, then I suggest finding a new outlet for that much-vaunted imagination. I would suggest writing or pen-and-paper role playing games to fill the void. Personally I think the old-fashioned D&D games are a lot of fun, and MUCH more creative and imagination stimulating than any computer game could ever be.

Accessibility. 

Anything else you want to drool on about?

Ah yes, "accessibility", because I'm mentally handicapped or something. Well, I hope that condescending, superior attitude keeps you warm on those cold, cold nights of having to play games made for us plebs.

I find it hilarious after all your retarded bull**** in this thread you want to lecture me on condescension. ****ing amazing. 

Well, can't say that I find your lack of self-awareness surprising. All of you traditionalists treat people who like the current system as if they are mentally deficient, and I am simply calling BS on that attitude. You're not as 'creative' as you'd like everyone to think (that whole Vivaldi comparison was particularly laughable) and all it really boils down to is that you're just mad that you got left behind by the industry. Well, there's a reason you got left behind. That super-abstract paradigm only appeals to people like you, and I guess the companies want to increase their consumer base by creating a MORE immersive experience by having a voiced protagonist. All of the things you cite as adding to YOUR version of immersion are really counterintuitive, since it's as far removed from an immersive sensory experience as you can get.

[Xewaka]

Tirigon wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
So my question is, if you want to play an emulation of pen-and-paper role playing games, why not just play pen-and-paper role playing games? Why have all the trappings of a video game? Pen-and-paper games are nothing BUT imagination. I play them, I played in one earlier tonight. It was a Fading Suns game, and my character was a 35-year-old male bodyguard with a mistress and a young son, a former army man, who because of an injury was asked to serve the Emperor by accompanying one of his Questing Knights, who is also a blood relative of the Emperor. I can put myself into a character, believe you me. I don't lack imagination. But when I'm sitting at that table I'm speaking as my character, the other players are speaking as their characters. There isn't anybody at the table holding up flash cards of what they're saying while they remain mute, so that the rest of us can "imagine" how they might say things.
You people say "immersion" is imagining your character speaking. Well, I find that to be the OPPOSITE of immersive. It is abstract. Maybe I don't have the same kind of imagination some of you have, but feel free to disparage me if it makes you feel better. But the voiced protagonist ship has sailed, and I'm on board with it. If the rest of you don't like these adventure games you revile so strongly, then I suggest finding a new outlet for that much-vaunted imagination. I would suggest writing or pen-and-paper role playing games to fill the void. Personally I think the old-fashioned D&D games are a lot of fun, and MUCH more creative and imagination stimulating than any computer game could ever be.

Pen-and-Paper RPGs are kinda hard to play if you know exactly ONE person who´s interested in that, and she lives 150km away from me.
Sadly, RPGs are not a common hobby in my generation:(

Try play by post RPG forums.

Modifié par Xewaka, 09 avril 2011 - 07:25 .

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Bleh, voice acting on it's own is fine, but when combined with a lack of variety and/or poor VA plus the paraphrasing wheel, the tone or text you intend may come out totally differently. That is just annoying and serves no purpose.

A good compromise would be having Wheel w/ paraphrase or List w/ full text being changeable in the menu and voiced vs mute player character being chosen at character creation. If we are talking about accessibility, I don't see why we can't have both forms.

[Siansonea]

Tirigon wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

So my question is, if you want to play an emulation of pen-and-paper role playing games, why not just play pen-and-paper role playing games? Why have all the trappings of a video game? Pen-and-paper games are nothing BUT imagination. I play them, I played in one earlier tonight. It was a Fading Suns game, and my character was a 35-year-old male bodyguard with a mistress and a young son, a former army man, who because of an injury was asked to serve the Emperor by accompanying one of his Questing Knights, who is also a blood relative of the Emperor. I can put myself into a character, believe you me. I don't lack imagination. But when I'm sitting at that table I'm speaking as my character, the other players are speaking as their characters. There isn't anybody at the table holding up flash cards of what they're saying while they remain mute, so that the rest of us can "imagine" how they might say things.

You people say "immersion" is imagining your character speaking. Well, I find that to be the OPPOSITE of immersive. It is abstract. Maybe I don't have the same kind of imagination some of you have, but feel free to disparage me if it makes you feel better. But the voiced protagonist ship has sailed, and I'm on board with it. If the rest of you don't like these adventure games you revile so strongly, then I suggest finding a new outlet for that much-vaunted imagination. I would suggest writing or pen-and-paper role playing games to fill the void. Personally I think the old-fashioned D&D games are a lot of fun, and MUCH more creative and imagination stimulating than any computer game could ever be.

Pen-and-Paper RPGs are kinda hard to play if you know exactly ONE person who´s interested in that, and she lives 150km away from me.

Sadly, RPGs are not a common hobby in my generation:(

Well, that is a shame. I wish more young people had the IMAGINATION to embrace pen-and-paper RPGs, they really are a lot of fun.

[Tommy6860]

erynnar wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

sleepyowlet wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

I love having a voiced protagonist. I think the people who are nerdraging over this need to get with the times and quit harping over the fact that games are evolving. I could never get into Dragon Age Origins because of the silent protagonist, I've always felt that it was peculiar to have a cinematic cutscene where one person is completely silent and you just read what they say. Unnatural, that is. I wouldn't mind multiple voices, but I think the way Dragon Age II handled it was close to perfect. My female mage had the Diplomatic personality, and she was quite the paragon of sweetness and light. My male mage had the Humorous personality, and he was consistently the rakish ne'er-do-well who ultimately chose to do the right thing (usually). The other female mage I'm currently playing (who is a Blood Mage and pro-Templar, go figure) has the Ruthless personality, and she comes across very differently than the other two I've played. So even though I'm staying in the Mage realm (the other classes just don't interest me so far) I'm having very different character experiences. I think this is the direction the industry is moving toward, and it will continue to be refined and improved as technology is refined and improved, but it's still much more of an "immersive" (I hate that word) experience for me to see and hear my character speaking, rather than imagine that the protagonist is some version of "me".

Posts like this make me want to bite into my keyboard.

Nerdraging, are we? Well, I'll try to stay civil, though I'm not sure I'll suceed.
You're on the winning side. Kudos to you. Well, some of us would like to continue using their imaginations when it comes to their PCs, thank you very much. And giving our characters a personality of their own has nothing to do with Mary-Sueing through the game.

So you've got a nice mage, a sarcastic mage and a jerk-mage. Nice. You know, when you'll play the other classes you'll be stuck with those exact personalities again. If that's fine with you, well, fine. For me it isn't. I don't like having a protagonist with the emotional range of a teaspoon who randomly starts trolling people without my say-so, just because I use more humorous responses than others. I'd like to do the role-playing myself, I don't like it when a computer does it for me.

I have about eight different Wardens, and they are all in posession of a very distinct personality. One that I made up and applied. Seven of those eight have spared Loghain - and each of them had a different reason for doing so. My two city-elves have mostly the same built, class and stat-wise, but they are very different. One is a charming trickster, and again, most of that happens inside my head, the other one was a very withdrawn, sometimes angry young woman. Both told Cailan that they killed an Arl's son because he raped their friend, but Lyrill snarled that sentence, whereas Chaeli batted her eyelashes and said it in a sugary-sweet tone. My imagination again. I feel really sorry for people who don't have one, or are too lazy to use theirs.

Just because you don't care about these things and are happy with what you get, you really don't need to look down your nose at those of us who don't share your opinion. It has nothing to do with "going with the times" - something that's new isn't necessarily better, just different.

WOW!

Coming from you, that's about as angry as I have ever seen
you post here in these forums. But I agree with you wholeheartedly. Your city elves brought back memories of
may favorite developed character and the sadness that was bheing a "City
Elf". Just that one aspect of a my own PC develpment has more depth than
the whole game of a sequel to that I thought was Dragon Age; Origins. To add, I have dome 14 warden playthroughs as mages, rogues and warriors from each race and story creation. I didn't do dwarves though. I still find great immersion with them.

I agree with sleepyowlet (I think stupid quote codes).  I despise the convo wheel with the passion of a thousand suns. It doesn't go with the fantasy style of the game, only three choices for convo (unless you get the stupid heart, for ****'s sake like I am some fourteen year old girl),  Half the time I didn't know what my character was going to say...SURPRISE!  And if I have to put up with the wheel of stupid...at least give me the blue and red mouse button options like in ME so I can stab someone in the eye and stop their convo.

And dammit, get the ME out of my DA. I didn't want an exact copy of DAO, nor did I want ME in DA drag.

Preferably I would love to see the wheel of stupid annilated and consigned to oblivion until such time as the technology changes to make the best of both worlds. Me, I prefer to read books than watch movies. I use my imagination, because I have one. I prefer to use that imagination to voice my own protagonists they all have their own personalities. And I too feel sorry for those with no imaginations or the laziness and constant need for hand holding and movies so that one isn't needed because it's just "too" hard to do so.

But apparently imagination loses to "show me."  yippee! <_<

One other thing, the voice of my Hawke now goes with the face I created. As such I can't make another one as they would not be Hawke.  So replay for me gets shot out the window. Another bonus of making up how they sound in my head.

Oh, and despite the snark, I hope I managed to keep my "nerdrage" to a slow boil.

No nerdrage taken, but making the comment "wheel of stupid" can be a little inflammatory to those who like DA2. Having said that, I agree and understand exactly what you mean about imagination, as I am an avid reader, more than watching the common Americana type TV fare. If I do watch TV, it is PBS news, or science/nature programming and little else. Using the imagination in Origins when making my dialogue choices was a great pause for deep thinking and preponderance of my choices, the the ultimate effect of my choice whether coming sooner or alter, gacve rise to introspection. That' doesn't happen in DA2. Nevertheless, you'r ideas of an RPG are more fitting to mine, but I would deter to belittle those who differ because their choices are not mine.

:D:D

[Merced652]

Siansonea II wrote...

Merced652 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Merced652 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

So my question is, if you want to play an emulation of pen-and-paper role playing games, why not just play pen-and-paper role playing games? Why have all the trappings of a video game? Pen-and-paper games are nothing BUT imagination. I play them, I played in one earlier tonight. It was a Fading Suns game, and my character was a 35-year-old male bodyguard with a mistress and a young son, a former army man, who because of an injury was asked to serve the Emperor by accompanying one of his Questing Knights, who is also a blood relative of the Emperor. I can put myself into a character, believe you me. I don't lack imagination. But when I'm sitting at that table I'm speaking as my character, the other players are speaking as their characters. There isn't anybody at the table holding up flash cards of what they're saying while they remain mute, so that the rest of us can "imagine" how they might say things.

You people say "immersion" is imagining your character speaking. Well, I find that to be the OPPOSITE of immersive. It is abstract. Maybe I don't have the same kind of imagination some of you have, but feel free to disparage me if it makes you feel better. But the voiced protagonist ship has sailed, and I'm on board with it. If the rest of you don't like these adventure games you revile so strongly, then I suggest finding a new outlet for that much-vaunted imagination. I would suggest writing or pen-and-paper role playing games to fill the void. Personally I think the old-fashioned D&D games are a lot of fun, and MUCH more creative and imagination stimulating than any computer game could ever be.

Accessibility. 

Anything else you want to drool on about?

Ah yes, "accessibility", because I'm mentally handicapped or something. Well, I hope that condescending, superior attitude keeps you warm on those cold, cold nights of having to play games made for us plebs.

I find it hilarious after all your retarded bull**** in this thread you want to lecture me on condescension. ****ing amazing. 

Well, can't say that I find your lack of self-awareness surprising. All of you traditionalists treat people who like the current system as if they are mentally deficient, and I am simply calling BS on that attitude. You're not as 'creative' as you'd like everyone to think (that whole Vivaldi comparison was particularly laughable) and all it really boils down to is that you're just mad that you got left behind by the industry. Well, there's a reason you got left behind. That super-abstract paradigm only appeals to people like you, and I guess the companies want to increase their consumer base by creating a MORE immersive experience by having a voiced protagonist. All of the things you cite as adding to YOUR version of immersion are really counterintuitive, since it's as far removed from an immersive sensory experience as you can get.

My lack of self awareness? Like.. Really? So because i brought up your retarded trolling i'm the hypocrite whenever i, up to that point, had never made mention of anyones attitude? Ok champ. I also didn't make any mention of vivaldi, perhaps you want to revise your drivel seeing how the posts i did make in this thread were me playing by rules you are obviously comfortable with. Well, all them except extreme hypocrisy. 

Also, stating a opinion doesn't make it fact. You likely get immersed in blues clues or "Avatar." The experiences i prefer are generally more cerebral than being spoon-fed **** and asking for more. 

Anything else broseph or are you done?

[Siansonea]

mrcrusty wrote...

Bleh, voice acting on it's own is fine, but when combined with a lack of variety and/or poor VA plus the paraphrasing wheel, the tone or text you intend may come out totally differently. That is just annoying and serves no purpose.

A good compromise would be having Wheel w/ paraphrase or List w/ full text being changeable in the menu and voiced vs mute player character being chosen at character creation. If we are talking about accessibility, I don't see why we can't have both forms.

Wouldn't bother me. I'm sure there would still be people who complain though. If people want to complain about lack of options, that's fine, but let's not blame the voiced protagonist, let's blame the LACK OF OPTIONS.

[Siansonea]

Merced652 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Merced652 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Merced652 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

*snip*

Accessibility. 

Anything else you want to drool on about?

Ah yes, "accessibility", because I'm mentally handicapped or something. Well, I hope that condescending, superior attitude keeps you warm on those cold, cold nights of having to play games made for us plebs.

I find it hilarious after all your retarded bull**** in this thread you want to lecture me on condescension. ****ing amazing. 

Well, can't say that I find your lack of self-awareness surprising. All of you traditionalists treat people who like the current system as if they are mentally deficient, and I am simply calling BS on that attitude. You're not as 'creative' as you'd like everyone to think (that whole Vivaldi comparison was particularly laughable) and all it really boils down to is that you're just mad that you got left behind by the industry. Well, there's a reason you got left behind. That super-abstract paradigm only appeals to people like you, and I guess the companies want to increase their consumer base by creating a MORE immersive experience by having a voiced protagonist. All of the things you cite as adding to YOUR version of immersion are really counterintuitive, since it's as far removed from an immersive sensory experience as you can get.

My lack of self awareness? Like.. Really? So because i brought up your retarded trolling i'm the hypocrite whenever i, up to that point, had never made mention of anyones attitude? Ok champ. I also didn't make any mention of vivaldi, perhaps you want to revise your drivel seeing how the posts i did make in this thread were me playing by rules you are obviously comfortable with. Well, all them except extreme hypocrisy. 

Also, stating a opinion doesn't make it fact. You likely get immersed in blues clues or "Avatar." The experiences i prefer are generally more cerebral than being spoon-fed **** and asking for more. 

Anything else broseph or are you done?

You keep calling me a hypocrite, but you're not SHOWING me to be a hypocrite. I think everything I've stated stands on its own, there's no pretense, and I'm not claiming any sort of moral or intellectual high ground like the Old Guard are. People who like voiced protagonists aren't claiming to be the intellectual elite of the gaming community, and I personally am just pointing out that while many of you might be smart-ish and imaginative-ish, we're all still PLAYING VIDEO GAMES. Not exactly on par with a true exercise in creativity and imagination, like say, writing, music composition, etc. You're just mad, and you're resorting to calling me stupid and infantile, when you're actually displaying the very behavior you're disparaging. They have a word for that type of thing, what is it again? Oh yeah, HYPOCRISY.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 09 avril 2011 - 07:40 .

[Merced652]

Are you that dense? You make condescending posts about what people find immersive and then you turn around and say i'm being condescending for saying you're a ****ing douchebag. DOES NOT COMPUTE. Funny thing then that i never placed myself on any moral high ground before you wanted to bring up condescension, i'm still trying to find out where i said i wasn't condescending and better yet, not being a hypocrit by railing you. 

Modifié par Merced652, 09 avril 2011 - 07:42 .

[UltiPup]

I see this thread is invested with Rage Demons. Suppose someone tore the Veil?

[Siansonea]

Merced652 wrote...

Are you that dense? You make condescending posts about what people find immersive and then you turn around and say i'm being condescending for saying you're a ****ing douchebag. DOES NOT COMPUTE.

I get it. You're mad. But whatever. If you're going to call me names, at least get my gender right: I'm female. So "broseph" and "douchebag" might be gems you'll want to reserve for male objects of ire.

[Merced652]

Siansonea II wrote...

Merced652 wrote...

Are you that dense? You make condescending posts about what people find immersive and then you turn around and say i'm being condescending for saying you're a ****ing douchebag. DOES NOT COMPUTE.

I get it. You're mad. But whatever. If you're going to call me names, at least get my gender right: I'm female. So "broseph" and "douchebag" might be gems you'll want to reserve for male objects of ire.

Does it look like i care what gender you are? If retarded were a gender i might; given the circumstances its not relevant. 

Modifié par Merced652, 09 avril 2011 - 07:43 .

[Siansonea]

UltiPup wrote...

I see this thread is invested with Rage Demons. Suppose someone tore the Veil?

I tried Cone of Cold, but it didn't seem to help...

[Siansonea]

Merced652 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Merced652 wrote...

Are you that dense? You make condescending posts about what people find immersive and then you turn around and say i'm being condescending for saying you're a ****ing douchebag. DOES NOT COMPUTE.

I get it. You're mad. But whatever. If you're going to call me names, at least get my gender right: I'm female. So "broseph" and "douchebag" might be gems you'll want to reserve for male objects of ire.

Does it look like i care what gender you are? If [redacted] were a gender i might; given the circumstances its not relevant. 

I'd suggest dialing back on the r-word as well. And you're lucky the Internet doesn't charge by the asterisk. Seriously dude, CHILL.

[mdugger12]

Yikes

[UltiPup]

Can we knock it off with the snappy insults? I think we can get past the "omg we DISAGREE" thing and head straight into proper discussion.