996 réponses à ce sujet

[Baelyn]

Yep. This thread is absolutely getting locked.

[the_one_54321]

Siansonea II wrote...
Well, I hope that condescending, superior attitude

Wow, irony anyone? I know I'm feeling the irony here. Hell, the irony is so hot off this it's burning my hands on the keyboard.

Siansonea II wrote...
And yet the whole purpose of this thread is to go back to the way things used to be. So the whole "let's not make every game the same" argument rings rather hollow, all things considered.

Why do you even care? The OP does not speak for everyone that dislikes the direction of DAII. I want BIOWARE to go back to the way it used to be, and so do most of the folks who are unhappy with the changes made in DAII. Projecting the OPs complants onto our posts does not render your argument valid.

Blood-Lord Thanatos wrote...
and frankly older videogames were not the paragons some people make them out to be.

The hell they weren't!! There is a darn short list of modern games that can even hold a candle to older games with regard to anything except graphics.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 09 avril 2011 - 08:02 .

[mdugger12]

I'm just glad the character actually speaks now. As simple as that.

[Siansonea]

I'd like to discuss this intelligently, actually. Without being accused of being somehow mentally deficient simply for the sake that I support the trend of voiced protagonists. Would I like more options within this implementation? Absolutely. I will never advocate having fewer options in a game. But the one does not equal the other. And just because you can have a laundry list of responses to choose from in a dialogue situation, don't kid yourselves that you're somehow getting more from the game. Point A and Point B are still fixed, it's just the mental process of reading, choosing, and imparting "tone" that is the payoff for fans of the old system. If you want to say Dragon Age Origins could have used more variety, more choices, more options, etc., I won't disagree, but let's not blame the voiced protagonist. I'll say it again, I like Dragon Age 2 and the two Mass Effect games. I like the way the voiced protagonist is implemented. I like the cinematic feel. If that's not the profile of the classic RPG connoisseur, then so be it. But don't call me a simpleton because I like the way they're doing things now. None of us is doing anything all that creative in the grand scheme of things.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 09 avril 2011 - 07:58 .

[AlanC9]

Tirigon wrote...
But the Witcher is totally stat-based combat, not "twitch".

Hit-chance, chance to evade - everything is based on your stats.

Only the way those stats are shown is quite unusual (and a bit hidden compared to DA).

I wouldn't describe TW that way. Combat DPS drops like a rock if you can't or won't execute the sword timing sequences. I suppose the game is playable without doing those , but I don't see how TW is less reflex-dependent than, say, ME2, where you can aim while paused.

[Baelyn]

mdugger12 wrote...

I'm just glad the character actually speaks now. As simple as that.

This.

[the_one_54321]

Siansonea II wrote...
Without being accused of being somehow mentally deficient simply for the sake that I support the trend of voiced protagonists

Then how about you start off by not accusing us of not being with the times for wanting a silent one? Hmmm?

[Siansonea]

Baelyn wrote...

Yep. This thread is absolutely getting locked.

And that would be a shame, because this is a discussion worth having, but it seems to be too emotionally charged right now. Maybe in a few more months it won't be so immediate, and can be approached again then.

[Baelyn]

Siansonea II wrote...

I'd like to discuss this intelligently, actually. Without being accused of being somehow mentally deficient simply for the sake that I support the trend of voiced protagonists. Would I like more options within this implementation? Absolutely. I will never advocate having fewer options in a game. But the one does not equal the other. And just because you can have a laundry list of responses to choose from in a dialogue situation, don't kid yourselves that you're somehow getting more from the game. Point A and Point B are still fixed, it's just the mental process of reading, choosing, and imparting "tone" that is the payoff for fans of the old system. If you want to say Dragon Age Origins could have used more variety, more choices, more options, etc., I won't disagree, but let's not blame the voiced protagonist. I'll say it again, I like Dragon Age 2 and the two Mass Effect games. I like the way the voiced protagonist is implemented. I like the cinematic feel. If that's not the profile of the classic RPG connoisseur, then so be it. But don't call me a simpleton because I like the way they're doing things now. None of us is doing anything all that creative in the grand scheme of things.

Not only this, but if people would have actually read and paid attention to Mr. Gaider's explanation. they would have realized that the wheel actually gives more options than Origin's text based system gave, its just broken out into several different wheels instead of one long list.

As for the icons, there were several times in Origins that I read one statement one way, the reaction from the person I was speaking too responded in a completely opposite way than what I was intending. So it was nice to have some clarification on what I am actually conveying in my response. Regardless of whether you like it or not the voiced PC doesn't remove anything that isn't already there. Either with a voiced PC or a non-voiced, you are still limited to only the options and tones the writers put into the game. If there is no voice you may be able to "pretend" like you said something with a certain inflection, but it doesn't change the fact that the inflection you had as far as the game and story is concerned is only what the writers intended you to have.

[the_one_54321]

AlanC9 wrote...

Tirigon wrote...
But the Witcher is totally stat-based combat, not "twitch".

Hit-chance, chance to evade - everything is based on your stats.

Only the way those stats are shown is quite unusual (and a bit hidden compared to DA).

I wouldn't describe TW that way. Combat DPS drops like a rock if you can't or won't execute the sword timing sequences. I suppose the game is playable without doing those , but I don't see how TW is less reflex-dependent than, say, ME2, where you can aim while paused.

The Witcher is completely a twitch game. You direct combat with your own reflexes in clicking the mouse button. It is not the character, it is how well you match with that orange glow.

And combat in The Witcher is the only reason I didn't really like that game. I felt that it was flat bad.

[the_one_54321]

Baelyn wrote...
the wheel actually gives more options than Origin's text based system gave, its just broken out into several different wheels instead of one long list.

I call bald faced [cow paties] on that one. I am not here to argue that DAII was a "bad" game, but absolutely nothing about it had "more options" than in DA:O.

[Siansonea]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
Without being accused of being somehow mentally deficient simply for the sake that I support the trend of voiced protagonists

Then how about you start off by not accusing us of not being with the times for wanting a silent one? Hmmm?

That doesn't imply or state a lack of intelligence, only a lack of flexibility or adaptability. You're clinging to an older system that is clearly being phased out in the industry. The change has already happened. Does anyone honestly think that DA3 is going to return to the DAO model? I would say that is an unlikely scenario. That doesn't mean one doesn't have a "right" to prefer that older system for whatever reason, opinions are opinions after all, none is any more or less valid than any other. But when people come out and accuse proponents of the new system for somehow screwing it up for all the Smart People, it's hard to take that lying down. If one prefers the old system, it's fine to express disappointment about the proliferation of the new system, but that's not an excuse to disparage the intelligence and creativity of those who like it.

[Merced652]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Baelyn wrote...
the wheel actually gives more options than Origin's text based system gave, its just broken out into several different wheels instead of one long list.

I call bald faced [cow paties] on that one. I am not here to argue that DAII was a "bad" game, but absolutely nothing about it had "more options" than in DA:O.

I'm willing to concede that if you go strictly by how they wrote it then it potentially could offer more choices. The problem being intent, the lack of varriance in that intent between playthroughs (look ma! No replay value!), and the issues individuals may have with given VOs and of course the ever-present "i never told you to say that."

 

You're clinging to an older system that is clearly being phased out in the industry. The change has already happened.

hahahahahahahaha

You put up such a bold, almost convincing facade there for a few posts and then bring it crashing down with that. God forbid someone come in here and mention new coke or anything. All change is good, the phasing out of certian aspects of certain things leaves no room for someone to appreciate what was lost. Clearly. 

Modifié par Merced652, 09 avril 2011 - 08:15 .

[AlanC9]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Baelyn wrote...
the wheel actually gives more options than Origin's text based system gave, its just broken out into several different wheels instead of one long list.

I call bald faced [cow paties] on that one. I am not here to argue that DAII was a "bad" game, but absolutely nothing about it had "more options" than in DA:O.

I think I said this upthread, but someone really needs to come up with actual numbers on how many dialog options per node each game presents. 

[Baelyn]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Baelyn wrote...
the wheel actually gives more options than Origin's text based system gave, its just broken out into several different wheels instead of one long list.

I call bald faced [cow paties] on that one. I am not here to argue that DAII was a "bad" game, but absolutely nothing about it had "more options" than in DA:O.

I hate to disappoint you but the wheel has more options than the "list" was able to have in Origins. This was confirmed by Mr. Gaider. I will try to find it, but that may prove difficult as I don't remember the name of the thread it was in.

[Siansonea]

Baelyn wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

I'd like to discuss this intelligently, actually. Without being accused of being somehow mentally deficient simply for the sake that I support the trend of voiced protagonists. Would I like more options within this implementation? Absolutely. I will never advocate having fewer options in a game. But the one does not equal the other. And just because you can have a laundry list of responses to choose from in a dialogue situation, don't kid yourselves that you're somehow getting more from the game. Point A and Point B are still fixed, it's just the mental process of reading, choosing, and imparting "tone" that is the payoff for fans of the old system. If you want to say Dragon Age Origins could have used more variety, more choices, more options, etc., I won't disagree, but let's not blame the voiced protagonist. I'll say it again, I like Dragon Age 2 and the two Mass Effect games. I like the way the voiced protagonist is implemented. I like the cinematic feel. If that's not the profile of the classic RPG connoisseur, then so be it. But don't call me a simpleton because I like the way they're doing things now. None of us is doing anything all that creative in the grand scheme of things.

Not only this, but if people would have actually read and paid attention to Mr. Gaider's explanation. they would have realized that the wheel actually gives more options than Origin's text based system gave, its just broken out into several different wheels instead of one long list.

As for the icons, there were several times in Origins that I read one statement one way, the reaction from the person I was speaking too responded in a completely opposite way than what I was intending. So it was nice to have some clarification on what I am actually conveying in my response. Regardless of whether you like it or not the voiced PC doesn't remove anything that isn't already there. Either with a voiced PC or a non-voiced, you are still limited to only the options and tones the writers put into the game. If there is no voice you may be able to "pretend" like you said something with a certain inflection, but it doesn't change the fact that the inflection you had as far as the game and story is concerned is only what the writers intended you to have.

True. I can imagine a line of dialogue is said in a certain way, but if the listener responds differently from what I'm imagining I'm saying, just how "immersive" is that? Is it now the NPC that is to blame for the disconnect? Why have any voice acting at all, why isn't everything just subtitled?

[the_one_54321]

Siansonea II wrote...
You're clinging to an older system that is clearly being phased out in the industry.

So. What.
BioWare is the only developer that still does it. And if their future games are going to be more of DAII, they can kiss my sale goodbye. I play other games like that from other devlopers that do it better.

Siansonea II wrote...
The change has already happened. Does anyone honestly think that DA3 is going to return to the DAO model?

They damn well had better, if they want any more of my money. And I am very far from being alone in this. I know a number of people that refused to buy the game or just passed it over. And the sales numbers in comparison to DA:O reflect this pretty clearly.

Merced652 wrote...
I'm willing to concede that if you go strictly by how they wrote it then it potentially could offer more choices.

I actually don't strictly need to have the options to enjoy the game. What ruined it for me was that they gave you the options and then took them away.

I don't want to play exactly what they have in mind when they let me make my own choices in DA:O. If Leliana is dead then she is freaking dead. End of story. That's not even an issue of good or bad RPG. That is an issue of bad game in any genre.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 09 avril 2011 - 08:24 .

[Baelyn]

Baelyn wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

Baelyn wrote...
the wheel actually gives more options than Origin's text based system gave, its just broken out into several different wheels instead of one long list.

I call bald faced [cow paties] on that one. I am not here to argue that DAII was a "bad" game, but absolutely nothing about it had "more options" than in DA:O.

I hate to disappoint you but the wheel has more options than the "list" was able to have in Origins. This was confirmed by Mr. Gaider. I will try to find it, but that may prove difficult as I don't remember the name of the thread it was in.

Ah. Found it.

[Merced652]

They won't ever use a non-VO'd protag again. Thats the simple truth of it. However lamenting that fact should not under any circumstance give anyone volition to deride someone for it. Which is an opinion some don't share.

Modifié par Merced652, 09 avril 2011 - 08:19 .

[Siansonea]

Merced652 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

Baelyn wrote...
the wheel actually gives more options than Origin's text based system gave, its just broken out into several different wheels instead of one long list.

I call bald faced [cow paties] on that one. I am not here to argue that DAII was a "bad" game, but absolutely nothing about it had "more options" than in DA:O.

I'm willing to concede that if you go strictly by how they wrote it then it potentially could offer more choices. The problem being intent, the lack of varriance in that intent between playthroughs (look ma! No replay value!), and the issues individuals may have with given VOs and of course the ever-present "i never told you to say that."

 

You're clinging to an older system that is clearly being phased out in the industry. The change has already happened.

hahahahahahahaha

You put up such a bold, almost convincing facade there for a few posts and then bring it crashing down with that. God forbid someone come in here and mention new coke or anything. All change is good, the phasing out of certian aspects of certain things leaves no room for someone to appreciate what was lost. Clearly. 

I never said all change is good, because that is a subjective appraisal that each person makes based on the circumstances at hand. This particular change is Bad for you but Good for me, but it is the same change. But change, good or bad for those interested, is happening. And no one is saying that appreciating the old system is unforgivable, but that doesn't make the new system some kind of albatross just because one doesn't like it. If it was, it would be phased out quickly and an entirely new change would present itself.

[the_one_54321]

Baelyn wrote...
Ah. Found it.

That's Darth Gaider's interpretation of "more options." Let me apply a completely different term to it so that it won't fall under his jurisdiction: "more results." Or maybe more divergent reactions.

If Hawke says 10 different things, but only has 2 different response from the NPC, most of those optoins are meaningless.

[Sabriana]

Gatt9 wrote...

RohanD wrote...

Okay here it goes. I think what we have here is the convergence of western and eastern RPG models. Traditionally, western RPGs have included more choices & consequences (C&C) & character customization where the PC's actions affect the world/game while jRPGs have been more on rails to tell a very defined story with a lot of meta customization and intricate game play mechanics. Personally, I think these styles each have their benefits and problems. It all comes back to how the developer handles these models. Bioware seem to be searching for a middle ground between these two, but it is out of sync with what a lot of their core base wants. There is also an argument to be made that we already have many RPGs on rails, consumers like choice. Choice is healthy for any kind of market.

One thing that has to be said as well, is that there are cultural differences between the development teams behind these models which led to their existence in the first place. Culturally, the Japanese level of attention to detail, their insistence on rock solid QA testing (ever seen a bug in a FF game?) and obssession with meta management mean that their RPGs operate on a slightly different level of immersion and engagement when compared to Bioware's. Western devs tend to focus on freedom, openness and choice, which leads to a different kind of immersion and value.

Disagree.

There's no convergence,  it's a matter of cutting development costs.  It costs a great deal less to have a game that's a linear path than it does to have a game with divergence.  A game with divergence requires each different path to be plotted,  and a well done one plots many different paths,  essentially a fully connected graph to all points,  with each edge,  cost increases and development time increases. (Think of each choice as a point,  and the edges different paths to the points).

Bioware is doing this because it's cheaper,  and because their intended market isn't a big fan of dialogue or reading,  just awesome-button action.

JRPGs are actually a static line from the 80's,   even they'll admit it,  while interaction has evolved in WRPGs, JRPGs stick with Nintendoesque linear path gameplay,  because that's actually preferred in Japan.  Japan's a big fan of interactive movies,  rather than non-linear gameplay.

Personally,  I'm a fan of early 00's JRPGs,  Final Fantasy 7,  Parasite Eve,  and others on the Psx.  I even found Valkyria Chronicles to be very well done.  But JRPGs are just a linear path and story heavy.  Bioware's latest offerings weren't trying to emulate that,  they were trying to emulate Action Games.  ME2 didn't shift into a shooter to emulate JRPGs,  it was to try and grab Gears of War fans,  DA2 didn't shift to try and emulate JRPGs,  it was to downplay RPG mechanics in favor of fast action.

As far as bugs go,  well,  it's a two-fold thing.  First,  console games are supposed to be relatively bug-free as there's no guarantee of patching them and console manufacturers have a low tolerance for bugs.  Second,  the Japanese have a different attitude towards quality.  They pride themselves on quality products,  and problems equate to failure in Japan,  failure even today equates to low job security,  in many cases failure means you're expected to resign.

This is in contrast to Western studios,  it seems the general line of thinking today is that a game is ready for release when it's bug list appears to be able to be fixed between release to manufacturing and the store shelves.  Meaning,  2 weeks worth of bugs is acceptable for RTM,  as they'll just "Patch it on day 1".  Which rarely seems to work out.  In Western studios,  it's not "Is it done?" it's "Is it close enough to being done?".  It's a way for publishers to shave 2 weeks out of the development cycle.

Oh yeah. I agree. Thanks for saving me a lot of typing.

[AlanC9]

Merced652 wrote...
You put up such a bold, almost convincing facade there for a few posts and then bring it crashing down with that. God forbid someone come in here and mention new coke or anything. 

I'm not sure New Coke is the best example there. In blind taste tests New Coke always did beat Original Coke. The problem was that Coke fans rejected change even though it was change to a flavor that they themselves actually preferred.

I was actually expecting Siansonea to bring this up as an appropriate metaphor, not you.

[mdugger12]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Baelyn wrote...
Ah. Found it.

That's Darth Gaider's interpretation of "more options." Let me apply a completely different term to it so that it won't fall under his jurisdiction: "more results." Or maybe more divergent reactions.

If Hawke says 10 different things, but only has 2 different response from the NPC, most of those optoins are meaningless.

I would agree that there should be more results but DA:O wasn't free of that issue either. That's something Bioware should work to improve across the board.

[the_one_54321]

mdugger12 wrote...
I would agree that there should be more results but DA:O wasn't free of that issue either. That's something Bioware should work to improve across the board.

Yeah, agreed that DA:O was not the best about that either.