996 réponses à ce sujet

[FuseBlues]

MrTijger wrote...

No, thanks, I'd like to keep all those things.

+1.

DA2 has its issues, but these aren't amongst them.

[Baelyn]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Baelyn wrote...
Ah. Found it.

That's Darth Gaider's interpretation of "more options." Let me apply a completely different term to it so that it won't fall under his jurisdiction: "more results." Or maybe more divergent reactions.

If Hawke says 10 different things, but only has 2 different response from the NPC, most of those optoins are meaningless.

Absolutely not. Don't dilute the facts with your dislike from whence they came. The fact is that there are more options with the wheel regardless of whether people accept this or not.

It is the same system as Origins presented in a different way with the ability to have more dialogue choices present to the player.

Your dialogue actually matters more in DA2 for your character's progression (I.E. The more aggressive selections you make, the more aggressive your character acts and is responded to)

[the_one_54321]

Baelyn wrote...
Absolutely not. Don't dilute the facts with your dislike from whence they came.

Pffft. I like Darth Gaider. I think he's pretty awesome, actually.

But simple question: how many NPC reactions are there in each dialog tree? Answer that.

[AlanC9]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Baelyn wrote...
Ah. Found it.

That's Darth Gaider's interpretation of "more options." Let me apply a completely different term to it so that it won't fall under his jurisdiction: "more results." Or maybe more divergent reactions.

If Hawke says 10 different things, but only has 2 different response from the NPC, most of those optoins are meaningless.

Wait a minute. If that's the problem, then how is PC VO causing it? 10 Hawke responses means that Bio's not skimping on Hawke's lines, they're skimping on the NPC responses. Is it your position that VO for the PC is using up too much of the zots?

Doesn't this end up being an argument against NPC VO? Multiple Warden lines leading to the same NPC response was a fairly common occurrence in DAO, and IIRC KotOR hand plenty of this too.

[Merced652]

AlanC9 wrote...

Merced652 wrote...
You put up such a bold, almost convincing facade there for a few posts and then bring it crashing down with that. God forbid someone come in here and mention new coke or anything. 

I'm not sure New Coke is the best example there. In blind taste tests New Coke always did beat Original Coke. The problem was that Coke fans rejected change even though it was change to a flavor that they themselves actually preferred.

I was actually expecting Siansonea to bring this up as an appropriate metaphor, not you.

I haven't, even now, seen a single third party scientifically viable taste test's results published about new coke vs classic. Despite that you're venturing in to a realm that didn't even exist scientifically when they first did those tests. There are social factors that played in to why coke was rejected. Objectively new coke might have been better. Just as objectively VO'd protag might be. But like then, some aren't comfortable with that change. Hence the social factors. Especially given the timultuous times in which they attempted that change. 

Given that, i'd happily accept a VO'd protag if i then had a choice of VO for the general character i wanted to play. I do not have that choice, and until i do have that choice i'm not comfortable solely with intent icons and a unpredictable VO.

[the_one_54321]

AlanC9 wrote...
Wait a minute. If that's the problem, then how is PC VO causing it?

'
Let's get one thing straight as far as my argument goes. I don't have a problem with the VO. I have a problem withy BioWare trying to be like everyone else.

And yeah, I also thought the DA:O wasn't too great on giving you varied responses. I mentioned that at the top of this page.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 09 avril 2011 - 08:35 .

[mdugger12]

Merced652 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Merced652 wrote...
You put up such a bold, almost convincing facade there for a few posts and then bring it crashing down with that. God forbid someone come in here and mention new coke or anything. 

I'm not sure New Coke is the best example there. In blind taste tests New Coke always did beat Original Coke. The problem was that Coke fans rejected change even though it was change to a flavor that they themselves actually preferred.

I was actually expecting Siansonea to bring this up as an appropriate metaphor, not you.

I haven't, even now, seen a single third party scientifically viable taste test's results published about new coke vs classic. Despite that you're venturing in to a realm that didn't even exist scientifically when they first did those tests. There are social factors that played in to why coke was rejected. Objectively new coke might have been better. Just as objectively VO'd protag might be. But like then, some aren't comfortable with that change. Hence the social factors. Especially given the timultuous times in which they attempted that change. 

Given that, i'd happily accept a VO'd protag if i then had a choice of VO for the general character i wanted to play. I do not have that choice, and until i do have that choice i'm not comfortable solely with intent icons and a unpredictable VO.

So you don't actually want them to scrap the Voiced Protag, you just want them to improve it and give you more options? That actually doesn't seem unreasonable at all, everyone can pretty much agree with that. But that's not the same as wanting it scrapped all together.

[Baelyn]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Baelyn wrote...
Absolutely not. Don't dilute the facts with your dislike from whence they came.

Pffft. I like Darth Gaider. I think he's pretty awesome, actually.

Could have fooled me...normally I don't liken people's names to evil characters when I like them...but thats just me...

But simple question: how many NPC reactions are there in each dialog tree? Answer that.

That is hardly a "simple" question, as to be accurate you would have to go through both games and count the ratio of NPC responses to PC dialogue options. And sorry, I dug out this quote for you, but I'm not willing to do that.

I would take a very reasonable guess that Origins and DA2 had a similar ratio of NPC responses to PC options.

The difference being that you can certainly make the argument that DA2 had more impact on your character and how his/her personality ended up.

The only thing I can think of is the "hardening" dialogue options in Origins with Alistair and Leliana which had an impact on what you could do storywise. I liked this and wished they would have brought something similar to bat with DA2.

[the_one_54321]

mdugger12 wrote...
So you don't actually want them to scrap the Voiced Protag, you just want them to improve it and give you more options? That actually doesn't seem unreasonable at all, everyone can pretty much agree with that. But that's not the same as wanting it scrapped all together.

That would be mostly fine with me as well, except that there are two problems.

No one else does silent protagonists in these particular kinds of games and that is a loss.

VOs are expensive, and more lines means more expense. And after a game as rushed and cut up as DAII is, I'd hate to see how they would react to even more expense in the VO side of things.

[Baelyn]

the_one_54321 wrote...

mdugger12 wrote...
So you don't actually want them to scrap the Voiced Protag, you just want them to improve it and give you more options? That actually doesn't seem unreasonable at all, everyone can pretty much agree with that. But that's not the same as wanting it scrapped all together.

That would be mostly fine with me as well, except that there are two problems.

No one else does silent protagonists in these particular kinds of games and that is a loss.

VOs are expensive, and more lines means more expense. And after a game as rushed and cut up as DAII is, I'd hate to see how they would react to even more expense in the VO side of things.

SW:ToR is entirely VO'd. All races and genders as well as every NPC. Which is unheard of in an MMO. But I suspect LucasArts may have something to do with that being a req for gaining the license.

Modifié par Baelyn, 09 avril 2011 - 08:47 .

[Merced652]

mdugger12 wrote...

Merced652 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Merced652 wrote...
You put up such a bold, almost convincing facade there for a few posts and then bring it crashing down with that. God forbid someone come in here and mention new coke or anything. 

I'm not sure New Coke is the best example there. In blind taste tests New Coke always did beat Original Coke. The problem was that Coke fans rejected change even though it was change to a flavor that they themselves actually preferred.

I was actually expecting Siansonea to bring this up as an appropriate metaphor, not you.

I haven't, even now, seen a single third party scientifically viable taste test's results published about new coke vs classic. Despite that you're venturing in to a realm that didn't even exist scientifically when they first did those tests. There are social factors that played in to why coke was rejected. Objectively new coke might have been better. Just as objectively VO'd protag might be. But like then, some aren't comfortable with that change. Hence the social factors. Especially given the timultuous times in which they attempted that change. 

Given that, i'd happily accept a VO'd protag if i then had a choice of VO for the general character i wanted to play. I do not have that choice, and until i do have that choice i'm not comfortable solely with intent icons and a unpredictable VO.

So you don't actually want them to scrap the Voiced Protag, you just want them to improve it and give you more options? That actually doesn't seem unreasonable at all, everyone can pretty much agree with that. But that's not the same as wanting it scrapped all together.

It is and it isn't. Its not so cut and dry and they have the option and don't, or that they outright refuse to do it for some arbitrary reason. They cannot, or rather will not (depending on perspective) give us that option because its cost would be extremely high and likely prohibitive. Much like in law they need a precedent before they will attempt something. No game, at least on a similar size of da2, has ever offered multiple substantive voice overs per gender. The reasons are quite clear for why that hasn't happened. Its my preference that i have that option, hopefully 3 or more per gender, or i get a silent protag. 

The silent protag is the much more likely, well.. actually no, but theoretically would be the much more likely of those two options to be endorsed by Bioware. 

Modifié par Merced652, 09 avril 2011 - 08:49 .

[AlanC9]

Merced652 wrote...
I haven't, even now, seen a single third party scientifically viable taste test's results published about new coke vs classic.

Well, there was a pretty famous one done by the WSJ. Don't know if you'd consider it scientifically viable. Most of the research was done by the cola companies themselves, obviously.

There are social factors that played in to why coke was rejected. Objectively new coke might have been better. Just as objectively VO'd protag might be. But like then, some aren't comfortable with that change. Hence the social factors. Especially given the timultuous times in which they attempted that change.

Sure. Are social factors causing folks to react badly to the VOd protagonist too? Or for that matter, DA2 itself? 

To the extent that's true, pro or con, all the arguments we have here are, literally, nonsense.

[the_one_54321]

Baelyn wrote...
SW:ToR is entirely VO'd. All races and genders as well as every NPC. Which is unheard of in an MMO. But I suspect LucasArts may have something to do with that being a req for gaining the license.

I ... don't really want to talk about that game.
I have sworn off any game related to Star Wars where light sabers are treated like glowing sticks. Developers have had years to figure out a way to fix that animation/mechanic. [copulate] any game that treats them like glowings sticks.

You may be completely right about everything else with regard to that game. But just seing the vids makes me want to vomit.

[Merced652]

AlanC9 wrote...
 To the extent that's true, pro or con, all the arguments we have here are, literally, nonsense.

When was that ever not true though? 

edit: to expand ever so little on the actual topic. The social factors that may contribute to why there is reluctance to a VO'd protag can be related to a lack of options. We're quite literally forced, if we choose to participate in a dwindling number of our most beloved genre's games, to wield a singular voice. To me thats unacceptable in a genre that literally started from nothing or very little being dictated to me about my character. 

Modifié par Merced652, 09 avril 2011 - 08:58 .

[Tommy6860]

Baelyn wrote...

Baelyn wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

Baelyn wrote...
the wheel actually gives more options than Origin's text based system gave, its just broken out into several different wheels instead of one long list.

I call bald faced [cow paties] on that one. I am not here to argue that DAII was a "bad" game, but absolutely nothing about it had "more options" than in DA:O.

I hate to disappoint you but the wheel has more options than the "list" was able to have in Origins. This was confirmed by Mr. Gaider. I will try to find it, but that may prove difficult as I don't remember the name of the thread it was in.

Ah. Found it.

I think I try to be as objective as possible when reading statements like these made by Mr. Gaider (as one example), and by those who seem take them as a total sum value, worthy of being accurate. I also expect those that take the words, on the basis behind his claims of more choices in the dailogue wheel, to do so less subjectively. While he is correct in that you only get 6 choices in Origins, it isn't as simple as having "only" six choices altogether from within the intial six choices; that's why I don't ascribe to one's definition or their statements as fact, I look into this myself.. Even as you link Mr Gaider's statement(s), and though I cannot remeber where I read this, Mr. Laidlaw made similar claims to where you have as many as eleven choices within DA2's wheel dialogue system. Even then, it still falls short of how many choices you "ultimately" get in Origins.

Before we get back to bashing (of which I absolutely will not engage), what I say is not some hyperbole when comparing the two systems, but rather from experiencing the two systems. I also say that there's a very distinct difference to making simplistic choices as to (seemingly) create some outcome to the game or your PC, companions and overall story which it nearly predetermined anyway, to actually developing and relating a story otherwise to that very same criteria, that can be made differently in outcome..

Modifié par Tommy6860, 09 avril 2011 - 08:56 .

[Baelyn]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Baelyn wrote...
SW:ToR is entirely VO'd. All races and genders as well as every NPC. Which is unheard of in an MMO. But I suspect LucasArts may have something to do with that being a req for gaining the license.

I ... don't really want to talk about that game.
I have sworn off any game related to Star Wars where light sabers are treated like glowing sticks. Developers have had years to figure out a way to fix that animation/mechanic. [copulate] any game that treats them like glowings sticks.

You may be completely right about everything else with regard to that game. But just seing the vids makes me want to vomit.

Not to derail this thread, but the newest videos look much better in my opinion. Looks like they have polished up the lightsaber animation quite nicely.

Also, The Force Unleashed did a fantastic job with lightsaber animations in my opinion.

[the_one_54321]

Baelyn wrote...
Not to derail this thread, but the newest videos look much better in my opinion. Looks like they have polished up the lightsaber animation quite nicely.

Also, The Force Unleashed did a fantastic job with lightsaber animations in my opinion.

When you hit someone with a light saber. Part of their body falls off. There is no substitute. Nothing else will be enough any more. Ever. Developers have had decades to figure this out and they haven't bothered. Screw 'em.

[Baelyn]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Baelyn wrote...
Not to derail this thread, but the newest videos look much better in my opinion. Looks like they have polished up the lightsaber animation quite nicely.

Also, The Force Unleashed did a fantastic job with lightsaber animations in my opinion.

When you hit someone with a light saber. Part of their body falls off. There is no substitute. Nothing else will be enough any more. Ever. Developers have had decades to figure this out and they haven't bothered. Screw 'em.

Well thats kind of, almost...well impossible in an MMO, well in any game really. That would be a one hit kill pretty much. That mentality just doesnt fit game mechanics. I mean the same could be said about hitting someone with a claymore on their arm. At the very least it would completely disable it. Yet you don't really see this happening in hardly any games.

[Merced652]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Baelyn wrote...
Not to derail this thread, but the newest videos look much better in my opinion. Looks like they have polished up the lightsaber animation quite nicely.

Also, The Force Unleashed did a fantastic job with lightsaber animations in my opinion.

When you hit someone with a light saber. Part of their body falls off. There is no substitute. Nothing else will be enough any more. Ever. Developers have had decades to figure this out and they haven't bothered. Screw 'em.

Its all about how much you are willing to suspend belief. Afterall you'd be playing a video game with health bars, and as i recall i recieved what would be some pretty grevious wounds in DA2 that i apparently shrugged off. Maybe cortosis was really popular back then. 

[Tirigon]

mdugger12 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

Baelyn wrote...
Ah. Found it.

That's Darth Gaider's interpretation of "more options." Let me apply a completely different term to it so that it won't fall under his jurisdiction: "more results." Or maybe more divergent reactions.

If Hawke says 10 different things, but only has 2 different response from the NPC, most of those optoins are meaningless.

I would agree that there should be more results but DA:O wasn't free of that issue either. That's something Bioware should work to improve across the board.

True, but in DA2 it was much worse than in DAO.

[Tirigon]

AlanC9 wrote...

I'm not sure New Coke is the best example there. In blind taste tests New Coke always did beat Original Coke. The problem was that Coke fans rejected change even though it was change to a flavor that they themselves actually preferred.

I was actually expecting Siansonea to bring this up as an appropriate metaphor, not you.

That does not, as such, matter, since taste and visual inception can not be separated - if you´d give me my favourite food, but made it look like a pile of crap, I wouldn´t eat it, no matter how well it´d taste when I don´t see it..........

[the_one_54321]

I personally saw several viable mechanical suggestions for making those animations work. This back when the swtor forums first went live. They could have made it happen if they had chosen to.

[Merced652]

The only system i can think of would be a stamina one, in which each move inflicted damage to that instead, and when it hit zero you would no longer be able to defend against those attacks. Focus also works, but its literally just another name for HP.

[mdugger12]

Baelyn wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

Baelyn wrote...
Not to derail this thread, but the newest videos look much better in my opinion. Looks like they have polished up the lightsaber animation quite nicely.

Also, The Force Unleashed did a fantastic job with lightsaber animations in my opinion.

When you hit someone with a light saber. Part of their body falls off. There is no substitute. Nothing else will be enough any more. Ever. Developers have had decades to figure this out and they haven't bothered. Screw 'em.

Well thats kind of, almost...well impossible in an MMO, well in any game really. That would be a one hit kill pretty much. That mentality just doesnt fit game mechanics. I mean the same could be said about hitting someone with a claymore on their arm. At the very least it would completely disable it. Yet you don't really see this happening in hardly any games.

I guess they could make the gameplay centered more on being defensive then offensive considering how. Blocks and evasion. Fights against skilled enemies would focus more on picking your spots and give it more of a duel feel than just trying to do as much damage as you can until they're dead. Against lesser enemies you could slice away, hot knife through butter like it should.

I heard Star Wars and lost my train of thought.

[the_one_54321]

It doesn't matter that is numerically identical. All that matters is thy could have worked in appropriate animations and they chose not to.