996 réponses à ce sujet

[mdugger12]

Tirigon wrote...

mdugger12 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

Baelyn wrote...
Ah. Found it.

That's Darth Gaider's interpretation of "more options." Let me apply a completely different term to it so that it won't fall under his jurisdiction: "more results." Or maybe more divergent reactions.

If Hawke says 10 different things, but only has 2 different response from the NPC, most of those optoins are meaningless.

I would agree that there should be more results but DA:O wasn't free of that issue either. That's something Bioware should work to improve across the board.

True, but in DA2 it was much worse than in DAO.

I wouldn't say it's much worse. Both need improvement. I think DA:O was better at giving the perception of more choices.

[borelocin]

Actually I'd rather they kept all three of these things, with the sole proviso that the "wheel" options be a bit more informative IE that the option text give you more of an idea of what you are going to say.

A wheel without pretty coloured icons and with full sentences would be perfect.

[Baelyn]

Tirigon wrote...

mdugger12 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

Baelyn wrote...
Ah. Found it.

That's Darth Gaider's interpretation of "more options." Let me apply a completely different term to it so that it won't fall under his jurisdiction: "more results." Or maybe more divergent reactions.

If Hawke says 10 different things, but only has 2 different response from the NPC, most of those optoins are meaningless.

I would agree that there should be more results but DA:O wasn't free of that issue either. That's something Bioware should work to improve across the board.

True, but in DA2 it was much worse than in DAO.

How specifically was DA2 worse than Origins in getting the same responsess from NPC's? Did you count? From my perspective it seemed pretty much the same.

[Tirigon]

Baelyn wrote...

How specifically was DA2 worse than Origins in getting the same responsess from NPC's? Did you count? From my perspective it seemed pretty much the same.

From mine it wasnt.

Only thing that goes in DA2´s favour is that they better masked it. In DAO it rarely happens, but if it did it was really extreme.
In DA2 they tried to make it less obvious. But of course it didn´t work.

[RohanD]

Gatt9 wrote...

Disagree.

There's no convergence,  it's a matter of cutting development costs.  It costs a great deal less to have a game that's a linear path than it does to have a game with divergence.  A game with divergence requires each different path to be plotted,  and a well done one plots many different paths,  essentially a fully connected graph to all points,  with each edge,  cost increases and development time increases. (Think of each choice as a point,  and the edges different paths to the points).

Bioware is doing this because it's cheaper,  and because their intended market isn't a big fan of dialogue or reading,  just awesome-button action.

JRPGs are actually a static line from the 80's,   even they'll admit it,  while interaction has evolved in WRPGs, JRPGs stick with Nintendoesque linear path gameplay,  because that's actually preferred in Japan.  Japan's a big fan of interactive movies,  rather than non-linear gameplay.

Personally,  I'm a fan of early 00's JRPGs,  Final Fantasy 7,  Parasite Eve,  and others on the Psx.  I even found Valkyria Chronicles to be very well done.  But JRPGs are just a linear path and story heavy.  Bioware's latest offerings weren't trying to emulate that,  they were trying to emulate Action Games.  ME2 didn't shift into a shooter to emulate JRPGs,  it was to try and grab Gears of War fans,  DA2 didn't shift to try and emulate JRPGs,  it was to downplay RPG mechanics in favor of fast action.

As far as bugs go,  well,  it's a two-fold thing.  First,  console games are supposed to be relatively bug-free as there's no guarantee of patching them and console manufacturers have a low tolerance for bugs.  Second,  the Japanese have a different attitude towards quality.  They pride themselves on quality products,  and problems equate to failure in Japan,  failure even today equates to low job security,  in many cases failure means you're expected to resign.

This is in contrast to Western studios,  it seems the general line of thinking today is that a game is ready for release when it's bug list appears to be able to be fixed between release to manufacturing and the store shelves.  Meaning,  2 weeks worth of bugs is acceptable for RTM,  as they'll just "Patch it on day 1".  Which rarely seems to work out.  In Western studios,  it's not "Is it done?" it's "Is it close enough to being done?".  It's a way for publishers to shave 2 weeks out of the development cycle.

Wait, how can you say there is no convergence then say it's about cutting costs? Couldn't it be that Bioware looked at the development costs of a true cRPG in a modern environment and compared that to the costs of a FF dev cycle and thought, hey there's something wrong here, we need to follow their model a bit more because their games are highly profitable and sell millions more than us?

Sure I get your point about following the action route, but SE are also doing this, albeit more successfully. Crisis Core, Dissidia and the upcoming XIII versus and Type 0 all have more action oriented models. Look at the reviews for The 3rd Birthday, bad. They are converging with the west here, trying to make an FPS when the first PE was a great, unique experience.

You're actually agreeing with me on the bugs issue so I'm not sure why you just put "disagree" in your reply. We're actually agreeing in more ways than you think. I view this as convergence, SE and Bioware both want the casual action crowd more interested in their games, that much is clear. What's sad is SE actually had more potential in this area before the merger. I'm still dreaming of Einhander 2. 

[sleepyowlet]

Merced652 wrote...

Are you that dense? You make condescending posts about what people find immersive and then you turn around and say i'm being condescending for saying you're a ****ing douchebag. DOES NOT COMPUTE. Funny thing then that i never placed myself on any moral high ground before you wanted to bring up condescension, i'm still trying to find out where i said i wasn't condescending and better yet, not being a hypocrit by railing you. 

DFTT. Just don't. They are not worth it. Didn't you notice that she only responds directly to people she managed to get a rise out of?

[bEVEsthda]

OP:

marinerzz wrote...

If you want to fix your reputation after the complete debacle of DA2!

I want to know exactly what I'm telling my character to say, not just a summary (which gives the wrong impression often).

I don't want my PC to have a voice because it will never sound exactly how my character does in my mind and makes the character less my own.

All the non-interactive cinematics destroy immersion because I'm no longer controlling my character.

Fix these problems, i.e. make DA3 like DA:O but without a dumb romance character who only likes you if you're cartoonishly evil like Morrigan was, and you can start making good games again. Don't fix these problems and you will fail sooner rather than later!

Yes. I could totally live with that, like. And they'd save a ton of development time and money which could be used differently.

I don't really have much gripe with how the dialogue wheel organizes dialogue. But the thing that the developer somehow seem to want to surprise us, as if we are supposed to be 'amused', when we hear the line, indicates that the developer have lost all touch with what a RPG is really about. This game was done by a bunch of kids that have spent their lives playing Diablo, Final Fantasy and Bayonetta... 

Dialogue systems have never been done better than 'Bloodlines'. And while numerous further improvements suggested themselves, I've never understood why that didn't become the new standard.

[Moirnelithe]

If it's going to be a choice between a voiced protagonist and more dialogues and choices, I'd pick a silent protagonist any day. A lot of the times when I picked a choice from the wheel Hawke said something totally out of character and unexpected, I hate that. Especially since what comes out of her mouth is either cheesy, utterly rude or selfdestructive depending on whether you pick diplomatic/sarcastic or aggressive. It was unrealistic at best and ridiculous at worst. I loved the dialogue the companions had, but Hawkes dialog was terrible, most likely because it had to fit the rest of the conversation independant of what tone you picked.

ps. I loved Bloodlines, if only Troika were still around 

Modifié par Evainelithe, 09 avril 2011 - 11:30 .

[sleepyowlet]

Siansonea II wrote...

So my question is, if you want to play an emulation of pen-and-paper role playing games, why not just play pen-and-paper role playing games? Why have all the trappings of a video game? Pen-and-paper games are nothing BUT imagination. I play them, I played in one earlier tonight. It was a Fading Suns game, and my character was a 35-year-old male bodyguard with a mistress and a young son, a former army man, who because of an injury was asked to serve the Emperor by accompanying one of his Questing Knights, who is also a blood relative of the Emperor. I can put myself into a character, believe you me. I don't lack imagination. But when I'm sitting at that table I'm speaking as my character, the other players are speaking as their characters. There isn't anybody at the table holding up flash cards of what they're saying while they remain mute, so that the rest of us can "imagine" how they might say things.

You people say "immersion" is imagining your character speaking. Well, I find that to be the OPPOSITE of immersive. It is abstract. Maybe I don't have the same kind of imagination some of you have, but feel free to disparage me if it makes you feel better. But the voiced protagonist ship has sailed, and I'm on board with it. If the rest of you don't like these adventure games you revile so strongly, then I suggest finding a new outlet for that much-vaunted imagination. I would suggest writing or pen-and-paper role playing games to fill the void. Personally I think the old-fashioned D&D games are a lot of fun, and MUCH more creative and imagination stimulating than any computer game could ever be.

Pen and Paper RPGs severely depend on other people to play with. And the forum based ones don't really interest me, because I want to see and hear the other players role-play their characters. Thing is, I have friends who I would like to P&P with, but our schedules keep clashing, so we can't. There is also the problem that many P&P players are male and don't want a woman in their group. This has actually happened to me more than once. I wanted to join a group, and they declined because I happen to be female.

So I play cRPGs as an alternative. I have characters and a world I can interact with, and I still get to roleplay a character. Sure, the input is text-based, but if I need to hear a line, I say it. Out loud. Or I tweak it a little in my imagination. I also like having nice things to look at, another point in favour of cRPGs. The vividness and alive feel of a P&P game-world severely depends on the ability of the game-master to set a scene and describe suroundings. Sadly most of those I played with failed in that regard.

And I don't mind a voiced protagonist - as long as I have the option of muting them. Surely that should be possible? I don't like having them forced on me.

Plus, it sadly is a fact that due to the budget, having lines for the player-character, means less lines for the NPCs. And that is, in my opinion, a bad trade-off.

[sleepyowlet]

Siansonea II wrote...

You keep calling me a hypocrite, but you're not SHOWING me to be a hypocrite. I think everything I've stated stands on its own, there's no pretense, and I'm not claiming any sort of moral or intellectual high ground like the Old Guard are. People who like voiced protagonists aren't claiming to be the intellectual elite of the gaming community, and I personally am just pointing out that while many of you might be smart-ish and imaginative-ish, we're all still PLAYING VIDEO GAMES. Not exactly on par with a true exercise in creativity and imagination, like say, writing, music composition, etc. You're just mad, and you're resorting to calling me stupid and infantile, when you're actually displaying the very behavior you're disparaging. They have a word for that type of thing, what is it again? Oh yeah, HYPOCRISY.

Erm ... you popped out of the woodwork insulting us as "nerds" and "old-timers" and "not able to adapt", not the other way around. You wrote posts full of glee that we won't ever again get what we want. Does it give you pleasure that we are sad and upset because we are losing something we love? It certainly seems so.

And yes, I play video-games, but I also write (though I only publish my fanfiction online - ideas that aren't mine can't be stolen), I draw and paint (just look for sleepyowlet on deviantArt) and I also sing and write songs, music and all. I do have creative outlets. I just happen to like applying my creativity and imagination to everything I do. DA:O inspired me to draw stuff and to write fanfic - DA2 didn't. I liked role-playing my character in DA:O, and I felt like I couldn't in DA2. The game didn't touch me, because it was like watching a movie - and not a good one at that. My heart wasn't in it, because the spot was already taken.

I'm sitting here, like quite a few others (waves at Tirigon), and write in a language I didn't grow up with. Yet I never claimed to be any kind of elite. Neither did any of those that oppose the wheel of WTF or the voiced character. You brought that word into the discussion. You accused us of thinking we are better. You accuse us of a lot of things.

And I did notice that you never replied to any of my posts.

[sleepyowlet]

Evainelithe wrote...

If it's going to be a choice between a voiced protagonist and more dialogues and choices, I'd pick a silent protagonist any day. A lot of the times when I picked a choice from the wheel Hawke said something totally out of character and unexpected, I hate that. Especially since what comes out of her mouth is either cheesy, utterly rude or selfdestructive depending on whether you pick diplomatic/sarcastic or aggressive. It was unrealistic at best and ridiculous at worst. I loved the dialogue the companions had, but Hawkes dialog was terrible, most likely because it had to fit the rest of the conversation independant of what tone you picked.

ps. I loved Bloodlines, if only Troika were still around 

This.

And Troika showed us how it could be done. Memorable characters (I loved Gary and the "twins"), a deep story, several possible endings, well designed, nice graphics AND areas worth exploring without any recycling. The dialogue-system was wonderful. No icons, different fonts and colours indicated the tone of the response...

Rest In Peace. *lights a candle*

[Sabriana]

sleepyowlet wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

You keep calling me a hypocrite, but you're not SHOWING me to be a hypocrite. I think everything I've stated stands on its own, there's no pretense, and I'm not claiming any sort of moral or intellectual high ground like the Old Guard are. People who like voiced protagonists aren't claiming to be the intellectual elite of the gaming community, and I personally am just pointing out that while many of you might be smart-ish and imaginative-ish, we're all still PLAYING VIDEO GAMES. Not exactly on par with a true exercise in creativity and imagination, like say, writing, music composition, etc. You're just mad, and you're resorting to calling me stupid and infantile, when you're actually displaying the very behavior you're disparaging. They have a word for that type of thing, what is it again? Oh yeah, HYPOCRISY.

Erm ... you popped out of the woodwork insulting us as "nerds" and "old-timers" and "not able to adapt", not the other way around. You wrote posts full of glee that we won't ever again get what we want. Does it give you pleasure that we are sad and upset because we are losing something we love? It certainly seems so.

And yes, I play video-games, but I also write (though I only publish my fanfiction online - ideas that aren't mine can't be stolen), I draw and paint (just look for sleepyowlet on deviantArt) and I also sing and write songs, music and all. I do have creative outlets. I just happen to like applying my creativity and imagination to everything I do. DA:O inspired me to draw stuff and to write fanfic - DA2 didn't. I liked role-playing my character in DA:O, and I felt like I couldn't in DA2. The game didn't touch me, because it was like watching a movie - and not a good one at that. My heart wasn't in it, because the spot was already taken.

I'm sitting here, like quite a few others (waves at Tirigon), and write in a language I didn't grow up with. Yet I never claimed to be any kind of elite. Neither did any of those that oppose the wheel of WTF or the voiced character. You brought that word into the discussion. You accused us of thinking we are better. You accuse us of a lot of things.

And I did notice that you never replied to any of my posts.

That's because you're being all logical and stuff. Really, what are you thinking? In the future, please refrain from that and use grand generalizations, present opinions as fact, and insult anyone not sharing your mind-set.

Thank you for your cooperation./sarcasm

[sleepyowlet]

Sabriana wrote...

That's because you're being all logical and stuff. Really, what are you thinking? In the future, please refrain from that and use grand generalizations, present opinions as fact, and insult anyone not sharing your mind-set.

Thank you for your cooperation./sarcasm

*giggle*

That was sweet and made me giggle. Thank you.

Ahem. Well. I'm still kinda new to this whole forum - thing... Isn't that strange? DA:O made me play, and write, and draw ... and DA2 made me post in forums.

[Nightrain50]

Silent protagonist = more playable races. Playable races trumps all.

[wildx]

Err the biggest bother about DAO for me was silent PC.

[ItsToofy]

Siansonea II still acting immature and name calling and being her own type of hypocrite? Thank you Sleepyowlet, you saved me the trouble of having to explain all that to her .....AGAIN.

She sais that "we're all still PLAYING VIDEO GAMES. Not exactly on par with a true exercise in creativity and imagination, like say, writing, music composition, etc" well then what the heck is a video game if not the expression of writing AND music compisition AND art style, etc. Who do you think makes these games, monkeys? and what are we not doing but exercising our creativity and imagination by customizing these characters as we see fit to PLAY a specific ROLE in this GAME...

Modifié par ItsToofy, 09 avril 2011 - 01:10 .

[sleepyowlet]

ItsToofy wrote...

Siansonea II still acting immature and name calling and being her own type of hypocrite? Thank you Sleepyowlet, you saved me the trouble of having to explain all that to her .....AGAIN.

She sais that "we're all still PLAYING VIDEO GAMES. Not exactly on par with a true exercise in creativity and imagination, like say, writing, music composition, etc" well then what the heck is a video game if not the expression of writing AND music compisition AND art style, etc. Who do you think makes these games, monkeys? and what are we not doing but exercising our creativity and imagination by customizing these characters as we see fit to PLAY a specific ROLE in this GAME...

My pleasure. It's a good excercise in patience

Other than that I absolutely agree. I see games as pieces of art I can participate in. It's fun. I love listening to music, I love good writing, I love visual artwork - and a role-playing game offers me a part in the dramatic arts as well. It's like a play I can partake in, but instead of one set of reharshed lines, I can choose from several what to say and how - and the other characters react to it.
Making games is art. And who says that art is never about money or fun really has a skewed perspective. The only real function that art has is giving pleasure. And the artist needs to live somehow.

Modifié par sleepyowlet, 09 avril 2011 - 01:24 .

[sleepyowlet]

Nightrain50 wrote...

Silent protagonist = more playable races. Playable races trumps all.

Yes. Because playing a different race isn't just a cosmetic choice to me, it's about exploring a different mindset and culture. My city-elves saw the world in a completely different way - I loved that. I want my underdogs back - I have a weakness for them. I love exploring their personalities, and if they hurt because they are treated badly, or if they grow cold and indifferent. If they become racists themselves, or if they somehow have the inner strength to still care and stand above that. Options, options, options ... ah, good times.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Nightrain50 wrote...

Silent protagonist = more playable races. Playable races trumps all.

Less playable races = deeper experience for available races.  Better experience beat playable races.



We've got a classic conflict of what can be dug in an hour: a wide shallow trench, or a deep, narrow trench.  [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png[/smilie][smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png[/smilie][smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png[/smilie]

[ItsToofy]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Nightrain50 wrote...

Silent protagonist = more playable races. Playable races trumps all.

Less playable races = deeper experience for available races.  Better experience beat playable races.



We've got a classic conflict of what can be dug in an hour: a wide shallow trench, or a deep, narrow trench.  ../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png

Unfortunately, all just opinion, some like the availability of differant races which gives them a better experience, who is anyone to judge that? silent protagonist doesn't necessarily mean less playable races, they just don't want to hire 8 differant VO's and/or spend the time...usually that's what it boils down to, money and/or time constraints.

[Gatt9]

Siansonea II wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
Without being accused of being somehow mentally deficient simply for the sake that I support the trend of voiced protagonists

Then how about you start off by not accusing us of not being with the times for wanting a silent one? Hmmm?

That doesn't imply or state a lack of intelligence, only a lack of flexibility or adaptability. You're clinging to an older system that is clearly being phased out in the industry. The change has already happened. Does anyone honestly think that DA3 is going to return to the DAO model? I would say that is an unlikely scenario. That doesn't mean one doesn't have a "right" to prefer that older system for whatever reason, opinions are opinions after all, none is any more or less valid than any other. But when people come out and accuse proponents of the new system for somehow screwing it up for all the Smart People, it's hard to take that lying down. If one prefers the old system, it's fine to express disappointment about the proliferation of the new system, but that's not an excuse to disparage the intelligence and creativity of those who like it.

You've got alot of high level problems in here.

Your major problem is your belief that the current system is somehow new,  it isn't,  it's been in place for a great many years.  The Monkey Island series comes to mind as a great example,  existing for nearly 15 years. 

This system is nothing more than the other system with the user abstracted away from what he's actually going to say for sake of not making people read.  Often you can find on Gamasutra commentary on why things are being done the way they are,  and you can consistently find that certain changes were made because a number of people purchased a game characterized by mechanics they hate.

-Why do I have to read in a video game,  if I wanted to read I'd buy a book!
-Why did my character miss?  He's right there!  I should hit him every time!
-What is armor class and why should I have to do math!

One player just recently went on such a massive tangent on the ME boards,  insisting he shouldn't have to "Learn" to play a game or "Read a book" to play a game.  These players are clearly not interested in Roleplaying Games,  they're clearly interested in Adventure games,  but rather than educate them by informing them what the games actually entail,  the games are shifted towards Adventure Game territory by the consistent removal of RPG features non-RPG players don't like.

This is exactly why you get the responses you're getting,  because the motivation behind them isn't that the system is inherently better,  it's because the system is being made for people who quite literally don't want to be bothered with intellectual facets and just want Awesome-button games.  Essentially the games are being made for people who hate RPGs. 

It's a failure of the Industry as a whole to educate customers and point them to games they would like,  instead trying to grab every dollar they can by removing systems non-RPG players don't like.  This is in contrast to say Hollywood,  there are plenty of people who do not like that Harry Potter features children using "Pagan" magic,  but Hollywood does not change it so that the children are using science to apease them.  They just politely suggest that perhaps this isn't the movie for you.

Your second major problem is your assumption that the Industry is "moving away from that model",  it isn't.  Bioware is,  Bethseda already did,  but they aren't the Industry.  They're just two developers.  Age of Decadence isn't moving away,  neither is Dead State,  and I believe the Witcher 2 isn't either. 

You've got to realize,  when you read these articles from companies,  they're not telling you the truth.  They're not going to tell you they did X to try and grab dollars from Group Y,  they're going to tell you that they "Evolved!" and "it's more immersive!",  throwing out buzzwords designed to prey upon people's inherent psychological need to avoid feeling old.  They'll claim they did something the rest of the Industry is doing,  rather than tell you they did it for money.  Bioware and Bethseda are especially bad about this,  making sweeping claims of advancing the genre as their justification for removing RPG mechanics in favor of trying to emulate other genre's gameplay.

[AkiKishi]

ItsToofy wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Nightrain50 wrote...

Silent protagonist = more playable races. Playable races trumps all.

Less playable races = deeper experience for available races.  Better experience beat playable races.



We've got a classic conflict of what can be dug in an hour: a wide shallow trench, or a deep, narrow trench.  ../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png

Unfortunately, all just opinion, some like the availability of differant races which gives them a better experience, who is anyone to judge that? silent protagonist doesn't necessarily mean less playable races, they just don't want to hire 8 differant VO's and/or spend the time...usually that's what it boils down to, money and/or time constraints.

Voiced protagoinsit is a massive investment in lines. Problem here is rudundancy, in any one play 50% of those lines are worthless (you can't be both male and female).
Then in anyone play 2/3rds of those remaining lines are also worthless, you can only choose a single option at each conversation path.
That's a lot of waste.

The one thing I will conceed with non voiced protagonists is they look very "wrong" in cutscenes. Otherwise, if you can read, you don't really gain a great deal from hearing what you have already read (which is why they use paraphrasing).

Given the ammount of waste though and what you could do by adding those extra lines to NPCs/Companions voicing seems a bit a lose/lose in Biowares model.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 09 avril 2011 - 05:10 .

[Merced652]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Nightrain50 wrote...

Silent protagonist = more playable races. Playable races trumps all.

Less playable races = deeper experience for available races.  Better experience beat playable races.



We've got a classic conflict of what can be dug in an hour: a wide shallow trench, or a deep, narrow trench.  [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png[/smilie][smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png[/smilie][smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png[/smilie]

If this were true DA2 would be a good game with a "deep" story. Deep being relative of course! Deep like a puddle!

[sleepyowlet]

Gatt9 wrote...


You've got alot of high level problems in here.

Your major problem is your belief that the current system is somehow new,  it isn't,  it's been in place for a great many years.  The Monkey Island series comes to mind as a great example,  existing for nearly 15 years. 

This system is nothing more than the other system with the user abstracted away from what he's actually going to say for sake of not making people read.  Often you can find on Gamasutra commentary on why things are being done the way they are,  and you can consistently find that certain changes were made because a number of people purchased a game characterized by mechanics they hate.

-Why do I have to read in a video game,  if I wanted to read I'd buy a book!
-Why did my character miss?  He's right there!  I should hit him every time!
-What is armor class and why should I have to do math!

One player just recently went on such a massive tangent on the ME boards,  insisting he shouldn't have to "Learn" to play a game or "Read a book" to play a game.  These players are clearly not interested in Roleplaying Games,  they're clearly interested in Adventure games,  but rather than educate them by informing them what the games actually entail,  the games are shifted towards Adventure Game territory by the consistent removal of RPG features non-RPG players don't like.

This is exactly why you get the responses you're getting,  because the motivation behind them isn't that the system is inherently better,  it's because the system is being made for people who quite literally don't want to be bothered with intellectual facets and just want Awesome-button games.  Essentially the games are being made for people who hate RPGs. 

It's a failure of the Industry as a whole to educate customers and point them to games they would like,  instead trying to grab every dollar they can by removing systems non-RPG players don't like.  This is in contrast to say Hollywood,  there are plenty of people who do not like that Harry Potter features children using "Pagan" magic,  but Hollywood does not change it so that the children are using science to apease them.  They just politely suggest that perhaps this isn't the movie for you.

Your second major problem is your assumption that the Industry is "moving away from that model",  it isn't.  Bioware is,  Bethseda already did,  but they aren't the Industry.  They're just two developers.  Age of Decadence isn't moving away,  neither is Dead State,  and I believe the Witcher 2 isn't either. 

You've got to realize,  when you read these articles from companies,  they're not telling you the truth.  They're not going to tell you they did X to try and grab dollars from Group Y,  they're going to tell you that they "Evolved!" and "it's more immersive!",  throwing out buzzwords designed to prey upon people's inherent psychological need to avoid feeling old.  They'll claim they did something the rest of the Industry is doing,  rather than tell you they did it for money.  Bioware and Bethseda are especially bad about this,  making sweeping claims of advancing the genre as their justification for removing RPG mechanics in favor of trying to emulate other genre's gameplay.

I'd really like to give you a hug. Yes. It's like a person who doesn't know how to read buying a book and complaining that they can't use it. And the publisher, instead of asking them to learn how to read, responds by furthermore only publishing picture-books.

This is not meant as an attack. I'm not trying to insult anyone's intelligence here. I just wanted to illustrate that to enjoy certain past-times, you first have to invest some time and effort in learning the necessary skills.

[Otterwarden]

sleepyowlet wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

That's because you're being all logical and stuff. Really, what are you thinking? In the future, please refrain from that and use grand generalizations, present opinions as fact, and insult anyone not sharing your mind-set.

Thank you for your cooperation./sarcasm

*giggle*

That was sweet and made me giggle. Thank you.

Ahem. Well. I'm still kinda new to this whole forum - thing... Isn't that strange? DA:O made me play, and write, and draw ... and DA2 made me post in forums.

Strange... not really... here's my take...  with DA2, Bioware brought the epic struggle out of the box and into real world.  The old guard was forced to come out of retirement and valiantly try to save the RPG genre from extinction.  PC players were pitted against console player, EA was acting as an "illusive man" behind the scenes, the stakes were high and looked pretty hopeless.  This "Certainty of death. Small chance of success. What are we waiting for?" scenario is exactly the kind of thing that appeals to the fanbase, so it hasn't surprised me in the least that so many found there way here.

BTW, in some of your comments I've had a bit of an identity crisis.  It's bad enough you look like me, but when you sound like me... well, it's a bit creepy...lol

Modifié par Otterwarden, 09 avril 2011 - 05:19 .