996 réponses à ce sujet

[Moirnelithe]

Siansonea II wrote...

Evainelithe wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
I'm surprised to hear you say that, because it sounds like the crux of the silent protagonist argument is that it is how say something that matters. If it's just quantity of dialog options, and you just want to pick dialog option A to achieve Result B, then I have to wonder if there's any real difference between the two Dragon Age games. I really don't know, so don't think I'm stating something one way or another. Of course I'm always going to come down in favor of more dialog options and more outcomes, but since the NPCs are voiced and animated the same in both games, something tells me that the protagonist's voice or lack thereof is a relatively minor concern as far as programming limitations are concerned. To me, the best solution is to upgrade the platforms so they can handle more data storage and whatnot, add more voices to choose from, but keep the character voiced.

The problem is still that voice actors cost a lot of money thereby cutting into the budget of developing more dialogue and choices. If voice actors were free I think the situation with DA2 would have been avoided to a large degree, but since this will never be the case I worry about the direction DA3 will take.

This is anecdotal, and I suspect that the protagonist VO work accounts for a pretty small percentage of the cost of the game. I'm sure they're paid pretty standard industry scale rates. They're not hiring Morgan Freeman and Meryl Streep here. This is really not a compelling argument to me. If the cost of Actor X is a little high, well then charge me $60 even for the game rather than $59.99. Those voice actors ain't rakin' in the millions, folks.

'Anecdotal' is it? Ah well. You seem to think taking things to extremes makes you right. It isn't hard to ridicule people just because they don't happen to agree with you. Anyway I won't be stooping to this level and will just stop arguing with you. There are plenty of people in this thread I don't agree with but none of them try to forcefeed me their opinions nor will I forcefeed them mine. A little respect goes a long way, both ways. Have a nice day 

[Siansonea]

Tommy6860 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...


It sounds like because of the presentation of certain elements, BioWare colored outside the lines of a very specific and rigid code of What Is An RPG. Rather than focus on which boxes on a list were or were not checked, why not focus on the emotional journey? I guarantee you that whatever lack of emotional payoff you felt in Dragon Age 2 would have been just as unsatisfying if the main character was unvoiced and the response options were presented as a list instead of spread out on a wheel.

I agree with this and yes, the game still would have been unsatisfying having a silent PC. That's is a very minor point to my dislike about DA2. When we talked about VPC and SPC, it was more about preference, than was about DA2. Now that this is about the game, it was unsatisfying as it didn't follow anything Dragon Age, as promoted in being a sequel. Some the dialogue was good (the side banter was very good IMO, though became stale when sexual themes were the norm most of the time, instead of peronalizing each other in side convos), but I felt no connection during what certainly should have been emotional situations or anything relevant to some story.

Once I got to Kirkwall, it was adventure after adventure of fetch quests through most of the first two acts, that I really didn't have any feel for any kind of a story and was even confused to why and what purpose was I doing all of these onerous quests. I felt I was grinding through them one at a time, with no choice but to do them, so I can get to the end run of Act I. I can list many more aspects that added to the ill-effects the game gave me for the genre, but it would be more than superfluous considering they have been mentioned in this thread ad nauseam.

The method isn't the problem. Personally, I enjoyed Dragon Age 2 well enough, especially my second playthrough with my snarky male mage Henrick Hawke. I have no illusions that Henrick is somehow unique, I'm sure there are a thousand other players out there who made the exact same choice with their Hawke. But it was a fun game, even if it defies established RPG conventions.

I can agree with this and there are those great moments when some of the chat shined, but it was far and few in between those instances. I think the game "could" have been fun, had I not expected it to be a sequel to one of the greatest RPGs ever made, DA:O; it was promoted as a sequel, labeled as an RPG and advertised as continuing the quests of Dragon Age. Had the game been named Dragon Age: Hawke's Adventure, or the like and been label as action/adventure, the game would have worked like a charm. By your own standards of game preferences as you decribe what you like, RPGs do not seem to fit your style, though DA2 is listed as an RPG, it did fit your liking. You then have to give serious consideration to what gnere DA2 truly would fall under.

I see what you're saying, and I would give it consideration if I was concerned about the game fitting within a specific genre, but I'm just not concerned about that. I'm fine with it being called an adventure game or whatever. Maybe Dragon Age 2 shouldn't be called an RPG, but that's another topic altogether I think.

It sounds like the overall disappointment with Dragon Age 2 is being laid at the door of the voiced protagonist. I certainly had some quibbles about Dragon Age 2, but nothing major. But I don't come from a Dragon Age Origins background. I tried to play that game once, I did the prologue with a mage character, but I just couldn't get into it because of the oddly silent protagonist. It was a barrier that I just couldn't get past. I am a role player in a pen-and-paper scenario, but that situation lends itself to what essentially amounts to improvisational acting. All the dialog actually produces sound. Silent computer characters are still silent. And I'd feel pretty silly reading lines aloud, to be honest, though I might try it to see if it makes a difference. Maybe I'll even try a jaunty Scottish brogue. Some of my friends have really sung the praises of Dragon Age Origins, and now that I've played Dragon Age 2, I'm much more inclined to give it another try, silent golem and all.

[Siansonea]

I'm really having a hard time keeping track of the people in this thread by the way, it seems like most of the people here have the same character as their avatar. Is that a Dragon Age Origins character I'm not familiar with? Why is she so popular?

[Siansonea]

Evainelithe wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Evainelithe wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
I'm surprised to hear you say that, because it sounds like the crux of the silent protagonist argument is that it is how say something that matters. If it's just quantity of dialog options, and you just want to pick dialog option A to achieve Result B, then I have to wonder if there's any real difference between the two Dragon Age games. I really don't know, so don't think I'm stating something one way or another. Of course I'm always going to come down in favor of more dialog options and more outcomes, but since the NPCs are voiced and animated the same in both games, something tells me that the protagonist's voice or lack thereof is a relatively minor concern as far as programming limitations are concerned. To me, the best solution is to upgrade the platforms so they can handle more data storage and whatnot, add more voices to choose from, but keep the character voiced.

The problem is still that voice actors cost a lot of money thereby cutting into the budget of developing more dialogue and choices. If voice actors were free I think the situation with DA2 would have been avoided to a large degree, but since this will never be the case I worry about the direction DA3 will take.

This is anecdotal, and I suspect that the protagonist VO work accounts for a pretty small percentage of the cost of the game. I'm sure they're paid pretty standard industry scale rates. They're not hiring Morgan Freeman and Meryl Streep here. This is really not a compelling argument to me. If the cost of Actor X is a little high, well then charge me $60 even for the game rather than $59.99. Those voice actors ain't rakin' in the millions, folks.

'Anecdotal' is it? Ah well. You seem to think taking things to extremes makes you right. It isn't hard to ridicule people just because they don't happen to agree with you. Anyway I won't be stooping to this level and will just stop arguing with you. There are plenty of people in this thread I don't agree with but none of them try to forcefeed me their opinions nor will I forcefeed them mine. A little respect goes a long way, both ways. Have a nice day 

I wasn't trying to disrespect you actually, only point out that your argument was based on an assumption unsupported by any actual verifiable numbers. You can't use the cost of voice actors as a reason for something if none of us knows what those numbers are. That's not taking anything to extremes, it's just pointing out the flaw in the argument's premise.

[Moirnelithe]

Siansonea II wrote...

I'm really having a hard time keeping track of the people in this thread by the way, it seems like most of the people here have the same character as their avatar. Is that a Dragon Age Origins character I'm not familiar with? Why is she so popular?

If you mean the picture of Cauthrien it's probably because she's one of the few female forum avatar's that looks okay. The in-game avatars that are uploaded automatically are low res and are annoyingly difficult to get to look right. I know I hate mine, if only there were more pictures to choose from.

[Siansonea]

Merced652 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Merced652 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Merced652 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Merced652 wrote...

  I guarantee you that whatever lack of emotional payoff you felt in Dragon Age 2 would have been just as unsatisfying if the main character was unvoice

No you can't. The first reason obviously being that its subjective and the second obvious reason being that no voice when only one option is present gives someone greater breadth to RP with their own voice as well as the option to use variable intent. 

So the actual story isn't important, just the degree to which you can decide which word in the sentence gets emphasized.

I have to GO.
I HAVE to go.
I have TO go.

OMG, you're right, how utterly game-breaking.

The story is important, the fact that its bad shouldn't really speak to its rpg elements, or lack of as is the case. Variable intent as it would be applied to a game like origins isn't just as simple as your intent, especially when someone cherrypicks a sentence containing 4 words. 

Regardless, the game engine doesn't care that your Warden speaks in a jaunty Scottish brogue or whatever. Maybe it feeds your fantasy of putting yourself in the game, and that's fine, but let's not kid ourselves that it has any affect on the outcome. And let's not kid ourselves that the Scottish brogue or the nuances of imagined voice acting are in any way imaginative. It's still just reading.

You're marginalizing something that can't really even be measured. It could be incredibly rewarding or offer next to nothing depending on the individual. Like i've been saying, its completely subjective. When i project a character who talks a certain way or has a certain character trait i would use the fact that there is no voiceover AND the fact that i can varry intent. You cannot do that in a system with a VO'd protag. Arguably you couldn't even do variable intent because the inflection would remain constant even without intent icons. Granted someone who has no interest in RPing, yet inexplicably plays RPGs, is simply wanting to be entertained by the game. Rather than take a proactive approach to entertaining themselves WITH the game. 

So you don't really care how limited your options are in other ways, as long as you have silent golem you can project a super-specific voice pattern onto. Okay. But once again, i don't care if Dragon Age 2 is called an "RPG" or a "MRI", I'd be just as happy with the game. Maybe you've got your rage 

i can see it was a mistake to respond to your bull**** again, a mistake i will not make again. 

Well, clearly you are enraged over something. My tone might be brusque or 'snarky' to some, but yours is downright heated. What else would I call it but rage?

[Tommy6860]

Siansonea II wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...


It sounds like because of the presentation of certain elements, BioWare colored outside the lines of a very specific and rigid code of What Is An RPG. Rather than focus on which boxes on a list were or were not checked, why not focus on the emotional journey? I guarantee you that whatever lack of emotional payoff you felt in Dragon Age 2 would have been just as unsatisfying if the main character was unvoiced and the response options were presented as a list instead of spread out on a wheel.

I agree with this and yes, the game still would have been unsatisfying having a silent PC. That's is a very minor point to my dislike about DA2. When we talked about VPC and SPC, it was more about preference, than was about DA2. Now that this is about the game, it was unsatisfying as it didn't follow anything Dragon Age, as promoted in being a sequel. Some the dialogue was good (the side banter was very good IMO, though became stale when sexual themes were the norm most of the time, instead of peronalizing each other in side convos), but I felt no connection during what certainly should have been emotional situations or anything relevant to some story.

Once I got to Kirkwall, it was adventure after adventure of fetch quests through most of the first two acts, that I really didn't have any feel for any kind of a story and was even confused to why and what purpose was I doing all of these onerous quests. I felt I was grinding through them one at a time, with no choice but to do them, so I can get to the end run of Act I. I can list many more aspects that added to the ill-effects the game gave me for the genre, but it would be more than superfluous considering they have been mentioned in this thread ad nauseam.

The method isn't the problem. Personally, I enjoyed Dragon Age 2 well enough, especially my second playthrough with my snarky male mage Henrick Hawke. I have no illusions that Henrick is somehow unique, I'm sure there are a thousand other players out there who made the exact same choice with their Hawke. But it was a fun game, even if it defies established RPG conventions.

I can agree with this and there are those great moments when some of the chat shined, but it was far and few in between those instances. I think the game "could" have been fun, had I not expected it to be a sequel to one of the greatest RPGs ever made, DA:O; it was promoted as a sequel, labeled as an RPG and advertised as continuing the quests of Dragon Age. Had the game been named Dragon Age: Hawke's Adventure, or the like and been label as action/adventure, the game would have worked like a charm. By your own standards of game preferences as you decribe what you like, RPGs do not seem to fit your style, though DA2 is listed as an RPG, it did fit your liking. You then have to give serious consideration to what gnere DA2 truly would fall under.

I see what you're saying, and I would give it consideration if I was concerned about the game fitting within a specific genre, but I'm just not concerned about that. I'm fine with it being called an adventure game or whatever. Maybe Dragon Age 2 shouldn't be called an RPG, but that's another topic altogether I think.

It sounds like the overall disappointment with Dragon Age 2 is being laid at the door of the voiced protagonist. I certainly had some quibbles about Dragon Age 2, but nothing major. But I don't come from a Dragon Age Origins background. I tried to play that game once, I did the prologue with a mage character, but I just couldn't get into it because of the oddly silent protagonist. It was a barrier that I just couldn't get past. I am a role player in a pen-and-paper scenario, but that situation lends itself to what essentially amounts to improvisational acting. All the dialog actually produces sound. Silent computer characters are still silent. And I'd feel pretty silly reading lines aloud, to be honest, though I might try it to see if it makes a difference. Maybe I'll even try a jaunty Scottish brogue. Some of my friends have really sung the praises of Dragon Age Origins, and now that I've played Dragon Age 2, I'm much more inclined to give it another try, silent golem and all.

If you're not playing an RPG because it has a SPC, then try and let go, when playing Origins. Really follow the story as it develops and make the choices with deep thought and consideratin. If you're really into stroies, fantasy lore, etc, Origins fits the bill. If you like Tolkien, C.S. Lewis (though I didn't liked his Christian apologetic stance), or even science fiction writers Heinlien ("The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" is a must read), Asimov, or even Terry Pratchett (whose daughter wrote the script for Mirror's Edge) of "Disc World"  and "The Amazing Maurice and His Educated Rodents" fame, then I think you'll find Origins emotionally involved, deep and compelling. But, if you're not into fantasy or medieval lore, it isn't going to appeal to you.

[Siansonea]

Oliver Sudden wrote...

If Bioware got rid of all the things the OP listed, DA3 would end up more like a game than an interactive, passively viewed movie.

I'm for that.

The more I have to use my imagination, the more involved I am. That's not rocket science, it's one of the differences between movies and books.

Once again, we're at square one. Mentally or vocally doing your own voiceover work is not a Herculean exercise in imagination. You're still just picking from a menu. The only difference is you're reading instead of listening. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't find reading to be a terribly imaginative exercise. It cracks me up how much people are patting themselves on the back for their creativity for just picturing a voice in their head instead of hearing it spoken.

[Moirnelithe]

Siansonea II wrote...

Evainelithe wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Evainelithe wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
I'm surprised to hear you say that, because it sounds like the crux of the silent protagonist argument is that it is how say something that matters. If it's just quantity of dialog options, and you just want to pick dialog option A to achieve Result B, then I have to wonder if there's any real difference between the two Dragon Age games. I really don't know, so don't think I'm stating something one way or another. Of course I'm always going to come down in favor of more dialog options and more outcomes, but since the NPCs are voiced and animated the same in both games, something tells me that the protagonist's voice or lack thereof is a relatively minor concern as far as programming limitations are concerned. To me, the best solution is to upgrade the platforms so they can handle more data storage and whatnot, add more voices to choose from, but keep the character voiced.

The problem is still that voice actors cost a lot of money thereby cutting into the budget of developing more dialogue and choices. If voice actors were free I think the situation with DA2 would have been avoided to a large degree, but since this will never be the case I worry about the direction DA3 will take.

This is anecdotal, and I suspect that the protagonist VO work accounts for a pretty small percentage of the cost of the game. I'm sure they're paid pretty standard industry scale rates. They're not hiring Morgan Freeman and Meryl Streep here. This is really not a compelling argument to me. If the cost of Actor X is a little high, well then charge me $60 even for the game rather than $59.99. Those voice actors ain't rakin' in the millions, folks.

'Anecdotal' is it? Ah well. You seem to think taking things to extremes makes you right. It isn't hard to ridicule people just because they don't happen to agree with you. Anyway I won't be stooping to this level and will just stop arguing with you. There are plenty of people in this thread I don't agree with but none of them try to forcefeed me their opinions nor will I forcefeed them mine. A little respect goes a long way, both ways. Have a nice day 

I wasn't trying to disrespect you actually, only point out that your argument was based on an assumption unsupported by any actual verifiable numbers. You can't use the cost of voice actors as a reason for something if none of us knows what those numbers are. That's not taking anything to extremes, it's just pointing out the flaw in the argument's premise.

Actually that argument goes both ways, you can't assume voice actors do not limit the dialogue. And I was referring to the "those voice actor's ain't rakin'in the millions, folks" which is condescending at best. Anyway enough of this, I've said what I wanted to say in this thread, what you do with it is of no concern of mine. I post because Bioware has referred to forum threads before when making decisions regarding game mechanics and not posting anything would be counterproductive. Not that I think Bioware will go back to silent PC's or get rid of the wheel but I think I should at least try to give my opinion on it.

[Otterwarden]

Siansonea II wrote...
Once again, we're at square one. Mentally or vocally doing your own voiceover work is not a Herculean exercise in imagination. You're still just picking from a menu. The only difference is you're reading instead of listening. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't find reading to be a terribly imaginative exercise. It cracks me up how much people are patting themselves on the back for their creativity for just picturing a voice in their head instead of hearing it spoken.

I can honestly say that in the 20 years of playing cRPGs I have never once heard my own voice in my head.  This would make a great deal of sense when you consider that I role play the opposite sex and it would be kind of disruptive.  When I read the text I'm focusing on what is being offered as a dialogue choice and where that may lead me consequence wise.

Modifié par Otterwarden, 10 avril 2011 - 05:15 .

[Tommy6860]

Siansonea II wrote...

Oliver Sudden wrote...

If Bioware got rid of all the things the OP listed, DA3 would end up more like a game than an interactive, passively viewed movie.

I'm for that.

The more I have to use my imagination, the more involved I am. That's not rocket science, it's one of the differences between movies and books.

Once again, we're at square one. Mentally or vocally doing your own voiceover work is not a Herculean exercise in imagination. You're still just picking from a menu. The only difference is you're reading instead of listening. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't find reading to be a terribly imaginative exercise. It cracks me up how much people are patting themselves on the back for their creativity for just picturing a voice in their head instead of hearing it spoken.

Well, you lost having decorum in the discussion by reverting back to condescension. I cannot help that you limit reading text as some mental block, because one uses their imagination for an SPC, it simply is not as you say it is . If pick and go choices, like in DA2's dialogue wheel of unexpected abrupt responses, fits your liking, that's great. This is the last time I reply, I don't give recidivism a second chance.

Modifié par Tommy6860, 10 avril 2011 - 05:18 .

[erynnar]

Oliver Sudden wrote...

If Bioware got rid of all the things the OP listed, DA3 would end up more like a game than an interactive, passively viewed movie.

I'm for that.

The more I have to use my imagination, the more involved I am. That's not rocket science, it's one of the differences between movies and books.

Hence my diquiet that DA2 moved into let's watch an interactive movie. ROFL!

[Siansonea]

Tommy6860 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...


It sounds like because of the presentation of certain elements, BioWare colored outside the lines of a very specific and rigid code of What Is An RPG. Rather than focus on which boxes on a list were or were not checked, why not focus on the emotional journey? I guarantee you that whatever lack of emotional payoff you felt in Dragon Age 2 would have been just as unsatisfying if the main character was unvoiced and the response options were presented as a list instead of spread out on a wheel.

I agree with this and yes, the game still would have been unsatisfying having a silent PC. That's is a very minor point to my dislike about DA2. When we talked about VPC and SPC, it was more about preference, than was about DA2. Now that this is about the game, it was unsatisfying as it didn't follow anything Dragon Age, as promoted in being a sequel. Some the dialogue was good (the side banter was very good IMO, though became stale when sexual themes were the norm most of the time, instead of peronalizing each other in side convos), but I felt no connection during what certainly should have been emotional situations or anything relevant to some story.

Once I got to Kirkwall, it was adventure after adventure of fetch quests through most of the first two acts, that I really didn't have any feel for any kind of a story and was even confused to why and what purpose was I doing all of these onerous quests. I felt I was grinding through them one at a time, with no choice but to do them, so I can get to the end run of Act I. I can list many more aspects that added to the ill-effects the game gave me for the genre, but it would be more than superfluous considering they have been mentioned in this thread ad nauseam.

The method isn't the problem. Personally, I enjoyed Dragon Age 2 well enough, especially my second playthrough with my snarky male mage Henrick Hawke. I have no illusions that Henrick is somehow unique, I'm sure there are a thousand other players out there who made the exact same choice with their Hawke. But it was a fun game, even if it defies established RPG conventions.

I can agree with this and there are those great moments when some of the chat shined, but it was far and few in between those instances. I think the game "could" have been fun, had I not expected it to be a sequel to one of the greatest RPGs ever made, DA:O; it was promoted as a sequel, labeled as an RPG and advertised as continuing the quests of Dragon Age. Had the game been named Dragon Age: Hawke's Adventure, or the like and been label as action/adventure, the game would have worked like a charm. By your own standards of game preferences as you decribe what you like, RPGs do not seem to fit your style, though DA2 is listed as an RPG, it did fit your liking. You then have to give serious consideration to what gnere DA2 truly would fall under.

I see what you're saying, and I would give it consideration if I was concerned about the game fitting within a specific genre, but I'm just not concerned about that. I'm fine with it being called an adventure game or whatever. Maybe Dragon Age 2 shouldn't be called an RPG, but that's another topic altogether I think.

It sounds like the overall disappointment with Dragon Age 2 is being laid at the door of the voiced protagonist. I certainly had some quibbles about Dragon Age 2, but nothing major. But I don't come from a Dragon Age Origins background. I tried to play that game once, I did the prologue with a mage character, but I just couldn't get into it because of the oddly silent protagonist. It was a barrier that I just couldn't get past. I am a role player in a pen-and-paper scenario, but that situation lends itself to what essentially amounts to improvisational acting. All the dialog actually produces sound. Silent computer characters are still silent. And I'd feel pretty silly reading lines aloud, to be honest, though I might try it to see if it makes a difference. Maybe I'll even try a jaunty Scottish brogue. Some of my friends have really sung the praises of Dragon Age Origins, and now that I've played Dragon Age 2, I'm much more inclined to give it another try, silent golem and all.

If you're not playing an RPG because it has a SPC, then try and let go, when playing Origins. Really follow the story as it develops and make the choices with deep thought and consideratin. If you're really into stroies, fantasy lore, etc, Origins fits the bill. If you like Tolkien, C.S. Lewis (though I didn't liked his Christian apologetic stance), or even science fiction writers Heinlien ("The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" is a must read), Asimov, or even Terry Pratchett (whose daughter wrote the script for Mirror's Edge) of "Disc World"  and "The Amazing Maurice and His Educated Rodents" fame, then I think you'll find Origins emotionally involved, deep and compelling. But, if you're not into fantasy or medieval lore, it isn't going to appeal to you.

I have read all of those authors and like them, though I don't really care for C.S. Lewis that much either. I was addicted to Asimov and Heinlien when I was a teenager in the 80s. I didn't discover Tolkein until I was in my late 20s, I wanted to read the books before I saw the LotR movies, and I'm glad I did. I read a lot of Discworld novels, and I also liked Douglas Adams to an extent and I even got sucked into reading all those ponderous Robert Jordan Wheel of Time novels. Now I've got a head full of pointless facts about Aes Sedai, the Forsaken, and the Aiel language. I wish I could hit the delete button with my memory sometimes.

My whole reason for posting in this thread was to present the counterpoint opinion, that the way things are being done right now are not inherently inferior, and that the 'reason' for preferring a silent protagonist is kind of a straw man. It's fine to prefer a silent protagonist, but it is not fine to use that preference as some sort of badge of I'm Better Than You, which was exactly what has been happening in this thread. People who prefer voiced protagonists are dismissed as unimaginative boors who are corrupting the sacred purity of the Arrpeegee, and I just find that preposterous. I'm sure people who have been playing RPGs for years naturally are used to the way they've been done in the past. Maybe BioWare should have marketed Dragon Age 2 as something other than a sequel to Dragon Age Origins, and they certainly should have incorporated a lot more meaningful content in the game. As much as I like the game, I definitely concede that it could have been much more.

[TheTWF]

It's absolutes in this case. Voice acting filled games with silent protagonists clunk. I'd rather they ditch VAing altogether but if they have to keep it I'd rather have a voice.

And of course I can't help but point out the oldschooler condescension saturating this thread, making me wish again that Origins wasn't targeting them. Bioware's mistake, that they're paying for now.

Modifié par TheTWF, 10 avril 2011 - 05:27 .

[Siansonea]

Otterwarden wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
Once again, we're at square one. Mentally or vocally doing your own voiceover work is not a Herculean exercise in imagination. You're still just picking from a menu. The only difference is you're reading instead of listening. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't find reading to be a terribly imaginative exercise. It cracks me up how much people are patting themselves on the back for their creativity for just picturing a voice in their head instead of hearing it spoken.

I can honestly say that in the 20 years of playing cRPGs I have never once heard my own voice in my head.  This would make a great deal of sense when you consider that I role play the opposite sex and it would be kind of disruptive.  When I read the text I'm focusing on what is being offered as a dialogue choice and where that may lead me consequence wise.

That's pretty much exactly what I do when I see the intent phrases on the dialog wheel and hear it spoken, but it all happens in a seamless, realistic way that is more akin to my experiences with pen-and-paper games and movies and whatnot. The unvoiced protagonist is unlike any other experience I've had, and it feels very artificial and abstract to me. I haven't been playing computer games for years and years. That doesn't make me stupid, only a newcomer to the computer gaming world. Some want to dismiss me as a noob or a dimwit, but they're missing the point. What I really am is a New Customer. I'm sure BioWare appreciates me a great deal.

The fact is, like it or not, sometimes those cherished paradigms get left behind. Believe me, I know how it feels when something I love becomes something I don't. The TV show "Bones" springs to mind. It used to be a wonderful show with lots of interesting characters and stories. Now it's all about the Sam-and-Diane, will-they-or-won't-they sexual chemistry between Brennan and Booth. SO bored with that. But oh well, they're not going to turn their back on the legions of 'shippers just because I don't like the show's direction. Same goes for games. The industry will do whatever it thinks is the most profitable, and the only way they will change is if those bottom lines don't have as many zeros as they were expecting.

[erynnar]

Tommy6860 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Oliver Sudden wrote...

If Bioware got rid of all the things the OP listed, DA3 would end up more like a game than an interactive, passively viewed movie.

I'm for that.

The more I have to use my imagination, the more involved I am. That's not rocket science, it's one of the differences between movies and books.

Once again, we're at square one. Mentally or vocally doing your own voiceover work is not a Herculean exercise in imagination. You're still just picking from a menu. The only difference is you're reading instead of listening. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't find reading to be a terribly imaginative exercise. It cracks me up how much people are patting themselves on the back for their creativity for just picturing a voice in their head instead of hearing it spoken.

Well, you lost having decorum in the discussion by reverting back to condescension. I cannot help that you limit reading text as some mental block, because one uses their imagination for an SPC, it simply is not as you say it is . If pick and go choices, like in DA2's dialogue wheel of unexpected abrupt responses, fits your liking, that's great. This is the last time I reply, I don't give recidivism a second chance.

As to patting myself on the back for being able to read and picture or hear in my head when reading, that takes imagination. And it is a creative exercise. Back in the day when they had radio and no TV my grandfather, hell, even my father had to imagine in his head what was going on. That is a creative exercise. Even Einstein said imagination was more important than IQ.

You like being "shown" things and having a movie, great. Again it is down to taste. And that's fine. But if you don't see reading as a creative exercise? I don't mean this in a condescending way, truly, but that makes me sad, because I get such enjoyment from books.There are so many rich and wonderful treasures to be discovered by reading and using your imagination. If I felt that way about reading I would feel like a color blind person, the world would be very flat and grey. Very rarely does a movie compare to what I create in my head. The Lord of the Rings movies, and Harry Potter ones did very well (so it isn't impossible) : D Wow, I am so addicted to the written word, I am just wow....

But there are different intellingences in the world. Visiual being one. My hubby is a written, and visual learner. Verbal...forget about it. ROFL.

[Siansonea]

Tommy6860 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Oliver Sudden wrote...

If Bioware got rid of all the things the OP listed, DA3 would end up more like a game than an interactive, passively viewed movie.

I'm for that.

The more I have to use my imagination, the more involved I am. That's not rocket science, it's one of the differences between movies and books.

Once again, we're at square one. Mentally or vocally doing your own voiceover work is not a Herculean exercise in imagination. You're still just picking from a menu. The only difference is you're reading instead of listening. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't find reading to be a terribly imaginative exercise. It cracks me up how much people are patting themselves on the back for their creativity for just picturing a voice in their head instead of hearing it spoken.

Well, you lost having decorum in the discussion by reverting back to condescension. I cannot help that you limit reading text as some mental block, because one uses their imagination for an SPC, it simply is not as you say it is . If pick and go choices, like in DA2's dialogue wheel of unexpected abrupt responses, fits your liking, that's great. This is the last time I reply, I don't give recidivism a second chance.

"you limit reading text as some mental block" = condescending. But whatever. AGAIN, you missed the point. You go on believing that you are some sort of Picasso because you're reading lines instead of hearing them, but I'm really not impressed. I still think it's artificial and abstract. That's not the way conversations actually play out in the real world. Granted, the voiced protagonist isn't either, but the overall feel is a lot more akin to real conversations than the silent treatment.

[Siansonea]

erynnar wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Oliver Sudden wrote...

If Bioware got rid of all the things the OP listed, DA3 would end up more like a game than an interactive, passively viewed movie.

I'm for that.

The more I have to use my imagination, the more involved I am. That's not rocket science, it's one of the differences between movies and books.

Once again, we're at square one. Mentally or vocally doing your own voiceover work is not a Herculean exercise in imagination. You're still just picking from a menu. The only difference is you're reading instead of listening. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't find reading to be a terribly imaginative exercise. It cracks me up how much people are patting themselves on the back for their creativity for just picturing a voice in their head instead of hearing it spoken.

Well, you lost having decorum in the discussion by reverting back to condescension. I cannot help that you limit reading text as some mental block, because one uses their imagination for an SPC, it simply is not as you say it is . If pick and go choices, like in DA2's dialogue wheel of unexpected abrupt responses, fits your liking, that's great. This is the last time I reply, I don't give recidivism a second chance.

As to patting myself on the back for being able to read and picture or hear in my head when reading, that takes imagination. And it is a creative exercise. Back in the day when they had radio and no TV my grandfather, hell, even my father had to imagine in his head what was going on. That is a creative exercise. Even Einstein said imagination was more important than IQ.

You like being "shown" things and having a movie, great. Again it is down to taste. And that's fine. But if you don't see reading as a creative exercise? I don't mean this in a condescending way, truly, but that makes me sad, because I get such enjoyment from books.There are so many rich and wonderful treasures to be discovered by reading and using your imagination. If I felt that way about reading I would feel like a color blind person, the world would be very flat and grey. Very rarely does a movie compare to what I create in my head. The Lord of the Rings movies, and Harry Potter ones did very well (so it isn't impossible) : D Wow, I am so addicted to the written word, I am just wow....

But there are different intellingences in the world. Visiual being one. My hubby is a written, and visual learner. Verbal...forget about it. ROFL.

I read books too. I've probably read more books than anyone else in this thread, simply by virtue of the fact that I'm probably older than the rest of you. I've read all kinds of books. I'm reading a book by Dr. Michio Kaku right now. I get an enormous amount of enjoyment and pleasure from books. But those are BOOKS.

Games are an audio/visual medium. When I experience audio/visual media there is audio and visuals. There are characters that interact with each other. When one of those characters is oddly silent, it is jarring to me. And don't tell me I don't know how to role-play, because I do, and in ways that are infinitely more imaginative than reading from a list of responses. Seriously, quit acting like this is somehow imaginative. You are imagin-ing, but you're not being imagin-ative. There really is a difference. The only thing you're adding is texture; the form, color, intent, function—all of that is provided for you. You're just selecting an option and putting your own spin on it—a minor enhancement at best—and one that has NO effect on the game itself. But people are acting like they deserve a Nobel Prize for being such advanced creative thinkers. Give me a break.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 10 avril 2011 - 05:52 .

[erynnar]

Siansonea II wrote...

erynnar wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Oliver Sudden wrote...

If Bioware got rid of all the things the OP listed, DA3 would end up more like a game than an interactive, passively viewed movie.

I'm for that.

The more I have to use my imagination, the more involved I am. That's not rocket science, it's one of the differences between movies and books.

Once again, we're at square one. Mentally or vocally doing your own voiceover work is not a Herculean exercise in imagination. You're still just picking from a menu. The only difference is you're reading instead of listening. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't find reading to be a terribly imaginative exercise. It cracks me up how much people are patting themselves on the back for their creativity for just picturing a voice in their head instead of hearing it spoken.

Well, you lost having decorum in the discussion by reverting back to condescension. I cannot help that you limit reading text as some mental block, because one uses their imagination for an SPC, it simply is not as you say it is . If pick and go choices, like in DA2's dialogue wheel of unexpected abrupt responses, fits your liking, that's great. This is the last time I reply, I don't give recidivism a second chance.

As to patting myself on the back for being able to read and picture or hear in my head when reading, that takes imagination. And it is a creative exercise. Back in the day when they had radio and no TV my grandfather, hell, even my father had to imagine in his head what was going on. That is a creative exercise. Even Einstein said imagination was more important than IQ.

You like being "shown" things and having a movie, great. Again it is down to taste. And that's fine. But if you don't see reading as a creative exercise? I don't mean this in a condescending way, truly, but that makes me sad, because I get such enjoyment from books.There are so many rich and wonderful treasures to be discovered by reading and using your imagination. If I felt that way about reading I would feel like a color blind person, the world would be very flat and grey. Very rarely does a movie compare to what I create in my head. The Lord of the Rings movies, and Harry Potter ones did very well (so it isn't impossible) : D Wow, I am so addicted to the written word, I am just wow....

But there are different intellingences in the world. Visiual being one. My hubby is a written, and visual learner. Verbal...forget about it. ROFL.

I read books too. I've probably read more books than anyone else in this thread, simply by virtue of the fact that I'm probably older than the rest of you. I've read all kinds of books. I'm reading a book by Dr. Michio Kaku right now. I get an enormous amount of enjoyment and pleasure from books. But those are BOOKS.

Games are an audio/visual medium. When I experience audio/visual media there is audio and visuals. There are characters that interact with each other. When one of those characters is oddly silent, it is jarring to me. And don't tell me I don't know how to role-play, because I do, and in ways that are infinitely more imaginative than reading from a list of responses. Seriously, quit acting like this is somehow imaginative. You are imagin-ing, but you're not being imagin-ative. There really is a difference. The only thing you're adding is texture; the form, color, intent, function—all of that is provided for you. You're just selecting an option and putting your own spin on it—a minor enhancement at best—and one that has NO effect on the game itself. But people are acting like they deserve a Nobel Prize for being such advanced creative thinkers. Give me a break.

Okaaay, do you always take everything so personally? I wouldn't presume to tell you that you don't know how to role play, but you are doing that to me. So, please refrain, and control yourself.  

I was addressing the comment you made that reading is not an imaginative exercise and I respectfully disagree. I didn't bring enjoyment into it, but I am glad you read, and you enjoy it. So do I. And as to my age vs your age, let's not assume, all right? I have been reading since I was two, and let's just say, that I too have been reading a really long time.

I am not asking for a Nobel Prize for creativity, so demeaning me says more about you than it does me. And you seem to be the one who wants a prize for being so imaginative for building your own back story to an audio visual stimulus. If I had a medal I'd give it to you. But games weren't always audio visual and quite frankly, I don't see why some games...CRPG's can't still have the written as well as the visual and audio. But hey, maybe that's just me, except this forum would say otherwise.

So far, I haven't seen anyone being as condescending to you, as you have been to them (of course this thread is long and I could have missed one, but still the tally is in your column more). You are one sensitive and defensive person.

As to being imagin-ative I write fanfiction based on my Warden that is AU. So I would say that is imagin-ative, rather than imagin-ing. Sort of like your story on Cathexis. So again, don't presume. The only reward I will get is not having anymore discussions with you, I'm afraid. Definitely no Nobel Prize with a million dollars.

Modifié par erynnar, 10 avril 2011 - 06:20 .

[sleepyowlet]

Siansonea II wrote...

You would all be better served if you would actually listen to what I'm saying rather than just reflexively reject everything because you dislike my delivery style. Maybe I'm not Suzy Sunshine, but if you actually think about it, what most of you are describing as an imaginative exercise is really just fantasizing. I'm sorry, there's no nicer way to put it. There isn't a whole lot of creativity to be had in this medium, at least not at this stage of the technology. You can write backstories and fan fiction and whatnot, and that can certainly be creative and imaginative, but playing the actual game and "role-playing" within the confines of a computer game is simply not creative. It's just responding to stimuli. It's not like you're writing what your character is saying, or shaping the story in a way that the developers didn't anticipate. It's like painting by numbers and calling it Art.

*Takes a deep breath*

Fantasizing is a creative excercise. I create stuff inside my head that isn't real. Why are you so convinced that your perception of the world is the only one to be had? And gaming, playing a cRPG is just reacting to stimuli ... I've got bad news for you - life as such is responding to stimuli. And in the end it's all inside your head. I find that I can be creative when it comes to cRPGs - I get to imagine (ideally) the details of the backstory my character has (yes we know that Chaeli Tabris is from the Alienage - but I can flesh her out), their personality and world-view (my example of my eight Wardens in one of my posts earlier that you didn't bother to respond to), and their voice (high? deep? lisp? grating? smooth?) - I just counted three excercises in creativity here.
You are right, I'm still operating in the framework the devs have given me - but that doesn't mean I can't bring myself into it.

If cRPGing is like painting by numbers, it's painting by numbers where I get to choose the colours for each number. Many, many possible results, applied creativity in sitting in front of the same canvas and thinking, what am I going to do different this time?
DA2 gave us the canvas and the colours. They are green, violet, red, and yellow.

Modifié par sleepyowlet, 10 avril 2011 - 07:58 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

mrcrusty wrote...

Pray Dungeon Siege 3 has some unexpected depth.

Dungeon Siege 3 has action combat.  Click-to-attack is never acceptable.

Xewaka wrote...

Try Drakensang. It's excellent.

Agreed.  The only thing I'd like to change in Drakensang is I'd like to design more than one character in the party.

AlanC9 wrote...

The problem is that TW isn't a substitute unless you're also happy with twitch combat and a precreated PC.

The Witcher really is the worst of all possible worlds.  Its only saving grace is its setting.

Siansonea II wrote...

So my question is, if you want to play an emulation of pen-and-paper role playing games, why not just play pen-and-paper role playing games?

Show me a single-player P'n'P RPG.

The point of CRPGs, I think, is to recreate tabletop RPG gameplay without the need for other people.  Anything that deviates from that is a step in the wrong direction.

mrcrusty wrote...

Bleh, voice acting on it's own is fine, but when combined with a lack of variety and/or poor VA plus the paraphrasing wheel, the tone or text you intend may come out totally differently. That is just annoying and serves no purpose.

A good compromise would be having Wheel w/ paraphrase or List w/ full text being changeable in the menu and voiced vs mute player character being chosen at character creation. If we are talking about accessibility, I don't see why we can't have both forms.

Look at how DA2 is written.  In DAO each dialogue hub produced a single uttered line followed by NPC reactions. 
In DA2, one player input might produce a series of responses from the PC, which couldn't be displayed all at once both because it is too long, and also because it wouldn't make any sense unless they showed us the interstitial NPC lines as well.

As written, DA2 cannot use the DAO dialogue system.

AlanC9 wrote...

I think I said this upthread, but someone really needs to come up with actual numbers on how many dialog options per node each game presents.

As I've already explained elsewhere, having the PC voiced with a fixed delivery of each line reduces the number of options to a number equivalent to the number of lines displayed on the wheel.  DAO has no such limitation. 
That there were 6 options displayed in DAO tells us nothing about how many options the player actually had.

Siansonea II wrote...

You're clinging to an older system that is clearly being phased out in the industry.

I fail to see the relevance of your point.  That we prefer it, and can make strong arguments in its favour, is why we keep advocating for it.  How likely BioWare is to give it to us in the near future doesn't matter.

Keeping the idea in the public eye has value.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 10 avril 2011 - 06:46 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Nightrain50 wrote...

Silent protagonist = more playable races. Playable races trumps all.

Less playable races = deeper experience for available races.  Better experience beat playable races.

But that depth is only added in the ways the designers planned.

Player freedom allows the players to add depth themselves as they see fit.  Each player's gameplay is thus tailored to his own preferences.

Forcing one narrative on all players is part of the problem, and here you are pointing out what a great thing it is.

[lobi]

In origins the questions were asked in my minds eye and gave me a stronger impression that it was I that was speaking to the npc. When I hear the pc speak with my ears it is nothing more than a third person, an interperator.

[Sylvius the Mad]

lobi wrote...

In origins the questions were asked in my minds eye and gave me a stronger impression that it was I that was speaking to the npc. When I hear the pc speak with my ears it is nothing more than a third person, an interperator.

Right.  When you speak to people IRL, you don't need to listen to yourself in order to know what it is you said or how.

[Warheadz]

Did anyone actually feel more attached to Hawke than to the Warden?

I really root for silent protagonist and the dialogue tree. DA2 just gave me no choices, and it was more of a movie (a bad one) than a roleplaying game.