996 réponses à ce sujet

[sleepyowlet]

Siansonea II wrote...

Clearly you haven't bothered to read anything I've written, or else you'd understand my motivation. My "motivation" is to take the wind out of this idea that those who are clamoring for a return to the Silent Era are somehow The Most Smartest Gamers Ever. You people are acting as if you're creating characters in these games. You're not. You're just making a series of selections from very limited menus. You respond to events as they are scripted. And imagining a character's voice rather than hearing it spoken aloud is NOT the pinnacle of imaginative thinking.

You want to be imaginative, be creative, and exert complete control over a character in an RPG? Well, then pen-and-paper is the most logical choice. You get to decide everything about the character except for their physical location when the game begins. You can create an illustration of your character's appearance. You can initiate combat, avoid combat, advance the main story or completely derail it. It's ALL up to you. But playing a video game and reading from a small list of lines of a screen IS NOT IMAGINATIVE. So let's just put that idea to rest. If that's your idea of using your imagination, no wonder you don't like anything but games that are exactly like games you've already played.

With all due respect - you won't take the wind out of our sails, because the wind driving the ship we're sitting in is made of personal opinions. And nothing you can say will change those opinions, because they are based on our personal perception of the game. Which is different from yours. Deal with it.

We enjoy different things, and we got them in the past. Now we are no longer getting them. Thus we are sad. Are we entitled to our feelings? Yes. Are you entitled to tell us how we should feel about this issue and what to do? No. Do I think I'm better/more creative/more intelligent than you? No. I want different things in an RPG. I want it to be an RPG. And yes, I do think a label matters. It just needs to be correctly applied. I don't want to buy a can of preserved apples, only to find out they are pears that were mislabled.

I did create eight different characters for DA:O. Eight. And there are going to be more in the future. I could fill pages with writing about their personalities, personal histories and stuff - but I don't want to spam the thread with that. They are no less real to me than the man-hating, lesbian dwarf I played in Shadow-Run. Or the cleptomaniac gnome with a fetish for elves that I played in D&D.

As for the P&P - that is severely dependant on the people you are playing with. More often than not they care more about fights and loot than about actually role-playing and developing a character. That, at least, has been my experience. Another thing is that, as I have said before, many of them don't want women in their group. I have been searching for a group to join (preferably one that doesn't play Ferûn D&D) for years.

So will you please stop behaving like a zealot and leave us to our devices? You like DA2. That's fine. We don't. That's fine too.

Modifié par sleepyowlet, 10 avril 2011 - 12:55 .

[Amioran]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

lobi wrote...

In origins the questions were asked in my minds eye and gave me a stronger impression that it was I that was speaking to the npc. When I hear the pc speak with my ears it is nothing more than a third person, an interperator.

Right.  When you speak to people IRL, you don't need to listen to yourself in order to know what it is you said or how.

Don't simplify the thing.  I understand your points, and with some I agree, but if you want to make comparisions, this one of the talk in RL vs. non-voiced rpg is completely wrong.

Firstly when you talk you cannot think (the talk is instinctive, a motive why the yogis always says that the logos come from the ego) and secondly you hear your voice in real time (albeit you don't turn your attention to it). The process happens in an ongoing fashion: i.e. you talk and hear and don't know what will happen next.

So, putting it in game:
1- You don't know exactly what you are going to say next, it's all in the mood of what is being said and what has been said before.
2- You hear your voice.

Seems like the wheel to me, isn't it?

Modifié par Amioran, 10 avril 2011 - 07:26 .

[sleepyowlet]

Amioran wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

lobi wrote...

In origins the questions were asked in my minds eye and gave me a stronger impression that it was I that was speaking to the npc. When I hear the pc speak with my ears it is nothing more than a third person, an interperator.

Right.  When you speak to people IRL, you don't need to listen to yourself in order to know what it is you said or how.

Don't simplify the thing. Firstly when you talk you dont think (the talk is instinctive, a motive why the yogis always says that the logos come from the ego) and secondly you hear your voice in real time (albeit you don't turn your attention to it).

So, putting it in game:
1- You don't know exactly what you are going to say next, it's all in the mood of what is being said and what has been said before.
2- You hear your voice.

Seems like the wheel to me, isn't it?

Except, I'm usually not surprised by what comes out of my mouth. Well, when I'm not completely drunk, that is. I usually know exactly what I'm going to say. And if I need to hear a voice when playing a silent protagonist, I open my own mouth and say stuff. Sometimes I click on a response and supply my own, slightly altered, version of it verbally.

[erynnar]

Warheadz wrote...

Did anyone actually feel more attached to Hawke than to the Warden?

I really root for silent protagonist and the dialogue tree. DA2 just gave me no choices, and it was more of a movie (a bad one) than a roleplaying game.

There are people who did feel more attached to their Hawke rather than their Warden, and vice versa War.  There is a thread on that (as there is on everything else, ROFL) I was not one who liked Hawke more. And another poster said something that clicked with me on why.  We aren't really playing Hawke. We are playing Cassandra the Seeker, playing Hawke while Varric tells Hawke's story in flashback. That actually made sense for me.  

[Amioran]

sleepyowlet wrote...
Except, I'm usually not surprised by what comes out of my mouth. Well, when I'm not completely drunk, that is. I usually know exactly what I'm going to say.

You don't know what you are going to say because you cannot think. It is the mood of the moment that direct what you are going to say. Your ego provides the motivation behind what it is being said.

It never happened to you that in a diverb you said something that you didn't really think, just to insult the other? Never happened that some phrases didn't came out as expected, maybe sounding in another way that you wanted? It happens all the time.

sleepyowlet wrote...
And if I need to hear a voice when playing a silent protagonist, I open my own mouth and say stuff. Sometimes I click on a response and supply my own, slightly altered, version of it verbally.

This can naturally work, but personally I hate people that read speaking the words, so never come near me whie doing it ;-)

Modifié par Amioran, 10 avril 2011 - 07:34 .

[mcneil_1]

erynnar wrote...

Warheadz wrote...

Did anyone actually feel more attached to Hawke than to the Warden?

I really root for silent protagonist and the dialogue tree. DA2 just gave me no choices, and it was more of a movie (a bad one) than a roleplaying game.

There are people who did feel more attached to their Hawke rather than their Warden, and vice versa War.  There is a thread on that (as there is on everything else, ROFL) I was not one who liked Hawke more. And another poster said something that clicked with me on why.  We aren't really playing Hawke. We are playing Cassandra the Seeker, playing Hawke while Varric tells Hawke's story in flashback. That actually made sense for me.  

Egads, so DA2 is sort of a Story in a Story?

[Tommy6860]

erynnar wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Oliver Sudden wrote...

If Bioware got rid of all the things the OP listed, DA3 would end up more like a game than an interactive, passively viewed movie.

I'm for that.

The more I have to use my imagination, the more involved I am. That's not rocket science, it's one of the differences between movies and books.

Once again, we're at square one. Mentally or vocally doing your own voiceover work is not a Herculean exercise in imagination. You're still just picking from a menu. The only difference is you're reading instead of listening. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't find reading to be a terribly imaginative exercise. It cracks me up how much people are patting themselves on the back for their creativity for just picturing a voice in their head instead of hearing it spoken.

Well, you lost having decorum in the discussion by reverting back to condescension. I cannot help that you limit reading text as some mental block, because one uses their imagination for an SPC, it simply is not as you say it is . If pick and go choices, like in DA2's dialogue wheel of unexpected abrupt responses, fits your liking, that's great. This is the last time I reply, I don't give recidivism a second chance.

As to patting myself on the back for being able to read and picture or hear in my head when reading, that takes imagination. And it is a creative exercise. Back in the day when they had radio and no TV my grandfather, hell, even my father had to imagine in his head what was going on. That is a creative exercise. Even Einstein said imagination was more important than IQ.

You like being "shown" things and having a movie, great. Again it is down to taste. And that's fine. But if you don't see reading as a creative exercise? I don't mean this in a condescending way, truly, but that makes me sad, because I get such enjoyment from books.There are so many rich and wonderful treasures to be discovered by reading and using your imagination. If I felt that way about reading I would feel like a color blind person, the world would be very flat and grey. Very rarely does a movie compare to what I create in my head. The Lord of the Rings movies, and Harry Potter ones did very well (so it isn't impossible) : D Wow, I am so addicted to the written word, I am just wow....

But there are different intellingences in the world. Visiual being one. My hubby is a written, and visual learner. Verbal...forget about it. ROFL.

I am confused, was your reply meant for me? I am an avid reader and prefer using my own imagination to conceptualize stories as I engage in them by reading text. I also prefer this in RPGs, with the SPC.

[sleepyowlet]

Amioran wrote...

sleepyowlet wrote...
Except, I'm usually not surprised by what comes out of my mouth. Well, when I'm not completely drunk, that is. I usually know exactly what I'm going to say.

You don't know what you are going to say because you cannot think. It is the mood of the moment that direct what you are going to say. Your ego provides the motivation behind what it is being said.

It never happened to you that in a diverb you said something that you didn't really think? Never happened that some phrases didn't came out as expected? It happens all the time.

sleepyowlet wrote...
And if I need to hear a voice when playing a silent protagonist, I open my own mouth and say stuff. Sometimes I click on a response and supply my own, slightly altered, version of it verbally.

This can naturally work, but personally I hate people that read speaking the words, so never come near me whie doing it ;-)

Uh, no. I can't say that I ever had an experience where I wanted to say "Yes you can move in." and what came out was "We'll be together forever!"
Slight slips of tongue, yes. but something that has a completely different semantic meaning? No.

I usually think about what I say before I say it. This sometimes takes a second or two, and that sometimes confuses people - but I do use my brain before opening my mouth. If the conversation isn't too intellectually taxing, I compute my response while listening to the other person talk.

And when I play computer games, I'm usually alone. So disturbing others isn't really an issue.

edit: And even when I'm angry, I keep a tight lid on my emotions and still try to behave in a rational manner. I don't believe in name-calling or simply insulting people. It's much more amusing to watch them verbally hang themselves. Yes, I'm that kind of person

Modifié par sleepyowlet, 10 avril 2011 - 08:06 .

[Amioran]

sleepyowlet wrote...
Uh, no. I can't say that I ever had an experience where I wanted to say "Yes you can move in." and what came out was "We'll be together forever!"
Slight slips of tongue, yes. but something that has a completely different semantic meaning? No.

It doesn't happen in the same way because your ego is a part of you, so when you have a mood you know (at last in part) in anticipation what that mood will be and how you will behave (on ample terms); since Hawke is obviously not you, this is more difficult.

Still, there are occasions when the "slips" are completely off the mark of what you wanted to say. It happens mostly when you are angry and/or drunk or similar. In that cases the ego takes completely the lead and what comes next can be unpredictable.

sleepyowlet wrote...
I usually think about what I say before I say it. This sometimes takes a second or two, and that sometimes confuses people - but I do use my brain before opening my mouth. If the conversation isn't too intellectually taxing, I compute my response while listening to the other person talk.

Sure, you can pause an think before talking (I do it myself). However when you have a conversation you cannot pause every sentence to know exactly what you are going to say next, or you will feel like a robot. You go by the mood.

[sleepyowlet]

Amioran wrote...

sleepyowlet wrote...
Uh, no. I can't say that I ever had an experience where I wanted to say "Yes you can move in." and what came out was "We'll be together forever!"
Slight slips of tongue, yes. but something that has a completely different semantic meaning? No.

It doesn't happen in the same way because your ego is a part of you, so when you have a mood you know (at last in part) in anticipation what that mood will be and how you will behave (on ample terms); since Hawke is obviously not you, this is more difficult.

Still, there are occasions when the "slips" are completely off the mark of what you wanted to say. It happens mostly when you are angry and/or drunk or similar. In that cases the ego takes completely the lead and what comes next can be unpredictable.

sleepyowlet wrote...
I usually think about what I say before I say it. This sometimes takes a second or two, and that sometimes confuses people - but I do use my brain before opening my mouth. If the conversation isn't too intellectually taxing, I compute my response while listening to the other person talk.

Sure, you can pause an think before talking (I do it myself). However when you have a conversation you cannot pause every sentence to know exactly what you are going to say next, or you will feel like a robot. You go by the mood.

No, usually I don't. And as I said in my edit, it is next to impossible to get a real rise out of me. I may be angry, but I never let my emotions control me. That is actually one of the reasons people hate debating with me, because I keep a lid on my feelings, and simply continue to calmly state my point, even after they are no longer able to do so. That's usually when the insulting and name-calling from their side happens.

I can't get into Hawke's skin because Hawke isn't my character anymore. I didn't make up her personality. Not every character I create has my personality (actually, as of yet, none of them do) but I like deciding how they react myself. Maybe I find it so easy to role-play a completely different personality because I have no troubles whatsoever distancing myself from my ego.

Modifié par sleepyowlet, 10 avril 2011 - 09:46 .

[erynnar]

mcneil_1 wrote...

erynnar wrote...

Warheadz wrote...

Did anyone actually feel more attached to Hawke than to the Warden?

I really root for silent protagonist and the dialogue tree. DA2 just gave me no choices, and it was more of a movie (a bad one) than a roleplaying game.

There are people who did feel more attached to their Hawke rather than their Warden, and vice versa War.  There is a thread on that (as there is on everything else, ROFL) I was not one who liked Hawke more. And another poster said something that clicked with me on why.  We aren't really playing Hawke. We are playing Cassandra the Seeker, playing Hawke while Varric tells Hawke's story in flashback. That actually made sense for me.  

Egads, so DA2 is sort of a Story in a Story?

Who knew?

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

I'm half tempted to post the "ya dawg" xzibit pic.

[Ciryx]

mrcrusty wrote...

I'm half tempted to post the "ya dawg" xzibit pic.

doit

[randName]

I often felt more attached to Hawk over the Warden, but it's mixed - I had one Warden I really liked, and a few that were ok.

[Tirigon]

Otterwarden wrote...

but I do believe that once the technology permits for more variation in the delivery more people will warm up to the idea of a character being voiced.

Well of course.

If you could get a brand-new ferrarri I for the price of a twenty years old Ford I doubt anyone would refuse it.

But since this is not the case, it doesn´t matter.




Edit: To make it clear, I don´t have a problem with a voiced main char as such - I have a problem with it because it limits the amount of options you have, because it means (at least in DA2) that you can´t choose your race anymore, because of the paraphrasing etc....

If there were 2 or 3 different voice presets for each race, and other races still available, and no goddamn stupid paraphrasing, I´d be all for a voiced protagonist.

However, that costs a lot of money - money that should better be spent on content and gameplay instead of voiceacting.
Let´s face it: Voiceacting is pretty pointless in the long run. After the first playthrough, I cancel the talking anyways because I´ve read the subtitles before they have said even half of what they are saying.

And then, there is the fact of taking the character away from you. Voiceacting was fine in The Witcher, because Geralt was a predefined character, whose story was told, not your character.
It is quite ironic that you still had more choices, though:D

Modifié par Tirigon, 10 avril 2011 - 12:42 .

[Tirigon]

Siansonea II wrote...

You seem to assume that I care what you think.

Let me tell you the horrible truth: I don't.

There's a reason I've ignored everything you've had to say in this thread until now. Run along now.

Of course there is:
You are unable to respond to me.

Doing so would require coherent thought and a point, you lack both, substituting it with a great deal of arrogance.

[sleepyowlet]

Tirigon wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

You seem to assume that I care what you think.

Let me tell you the horrible truth: I don't.

There's a reason I've ignored everything you've had to say in this thread until now. Run along now.

Of course there is:
You are unable to respond to me.

Doing so would require coherent thought and a point, you lack both, substituting it with a great deal of arrogance.

Now, now, let's be nice. The two of us are obviously not worth talking to. Let's stop spamming the thread with this nonsense.

[Tirigon]

sleepyowlet wrote...

Now, now, let's be nice. The two of us are obviously not worth talking to. Let's stop spamming the thread with this nonsense.

This thread is so far beyond being able to be spammed. Siansonea posted so much this thread consists entirely of spam by now:innocent:

[Ross42899]

I hope they DON'T get rid of the fully voiced player character. The character feels much more alive with a real voice. That your character didn't talk was the thing that annoyed me most in DAO (and in Kotor & Jade Empire as well). It's stupid to have squadmates talking to you but you can't hear your own voice but only have some text messages on screen. IMO it takes a lot of atmosphere if your charater doesn't talk.

Also the dialogue wheel feels way more dynamic (and keeps you more within the DA universe) than a handfull of text answers put on screen during a dialogue.

[sleepyowlet]

Tirigon wrote...

sleepyowlet wrote...

Now, now, let's be nice. The two of us are obviously not worth talking to. Let's stop spamming the thread with this nonsense.

This thread is so far beyond being able to be spammed. Siansonea posted so much this thread consists entirely of spam by now:innocent:

Yeah, and I believe everything that needs to be said has been said, one way or another. So what if the mods close it?

[Tirigon]

Ross42899 wrote...


Also the dialogue wheel feels way more dynamic (and keeps you more within the DA universe) than a handfull of text answers put on screen during a dialogue.

What?

How exactly is a big Space wheel on your screen keeping you in the DA universe?

[Siansonea]

sleepyowlet wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Clearly you haven't bothered to read anything I've written, or else you'd understand my motivation. My "motivation" is to take the wind out of this idea that those who are clamoring for a return to the Silent Era are somehow The Most Smartest Gamers Ever. You people are acting as if you're creating characters in these games. You're not. You're just making a series of selections from very limited menus. You respond to events as they are scripted. And imagining a character's voice rather than hearing it spoken aloud is NOT the pinnacle of imaginative thinking.

You want to be imaginative, be creative, and exert complete control over a character in an RPG? Well, then pen-and-paper is the most logical choice. You get to decide everything about the character except for their physical location when the game begins. You can create an illustration of your character's appearance. You can initiate combat, avoid combat, advance the main story or completely derail it. It's ALL up to you. But playing a video game and reading from a small list of lines of a screen IS NOT IMAGINATIVE. So let's just put that idea to rest. If that's your idea of using your imagination, no wonder you don't like anything but games that are exactly like games you've already played.

With all due respect - you won't take the wind out of our sails, because the wind driving the ship we're sitting in is made of personal opinions. And nothing you can say will change those opinions, because they are based on our personal perception of the game. Which is different from yours. Deal with it.

We enjoy different things, and we got them in the past. Now we are no longer getting them. Thus we are sad. Are we entitled to our feelings? Yes. Are you entitled to tell us how we should feel about this issue and what to do? No. Do I think I'm better/more creative/more intelligent than you? No. I want different things in an RPG. I want it to be an RPG. And yes, I do think a label matters. It just needs to be correctly applied. I don't want to buy a can of preserved apples, only to find out they are pears that were mislabled.

I did create eight different characters for DA:O. Eight. And there are going to be more in the future. I could fill pages with writing about their personalities, personal histories and stuff - but I don't want to spam the thread with that. They are no less real to me than the man-hating, lesbian dwarf I played in Shadow-Run. Or the cleptomaniac gnome with a fetish for elves that I played in D&D.

As for the P&P - that is severely dependant on the people you are playing with. More often than not they care more about fights and loot than about actually role-playing and developing a character. That, at least, has been my experience. Another thing is that, as I have said before, many of them don't want women in their group. I have been searching for a group to join (preferably one that doesn't play Ferûn D&D) for years.

So will you please stop behaving like a zealot and leave us to our devices? You like DA2. That's fine. We don't. That's fine too.

All of this is perfectly reasonable. Preferring a silent protagonist is fine, as mentioned it is a matter of opinion. But I will say that much of the imaginative exercises mentioned above (backstory, etc.) could still be done with a voiced protagonist with only a few tweaks to that system. I think there needs to be much more choice when it comes to the actual voice characterization of a player character like Hawke. And I would embrace more race options and more backstory options, especially if it was a mix-and-match system that would allow you to create a customized backstory. I find that fun, and it does engage the imagination and allow for a more tailored experience. I don't really have any disagreement with any of the points people bring up in this thread except for the premise that the voiced protagonist is the big barrier to imagination and creative customization of the player character. I think it's being blamed for other shortcomings of the game.

[ItsToofy]

Tirigon wrote...

sleepyowlet wrote...

Now, now, let's be nice. The two of us are obviously not worth talking to. Let's stop spamming the thread with this nonsense.

This thread is so far beyond being able to be spammed. Siansonea posted so much this thread consists entirely of spam by now:innocent:

I'm even tempted to report this thread as spam, because everything that needed to be said, has been said...about 50 times each...

[Siansonea]

Tirigon wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

You seem to assume that I care what you think.

Let me tell you the horrible truth: I don't.

There's a reason I've ignored everything you've had to say in this thread until now. Run along now.

Of course there is:
You are unable to respond to me.

Doing so would require coherent thought and a point, you lack both, substituting it with a great deal of arrogance.

blahblahblah. You clearly lack the ability to read, or you would have understood my points and actually responded to them rather than to just say "you're a big meanie head" or the equivalent. Ironically, I might actually agree with some of your observations every now and then, but it's not worth responding to you because instead of responding to what I'm saying, you respond to how I say it. I get it. I'm a big Meanie Head. Now what exactly about my points is incoherent and lacking, O Paragon of Rational Thought?

[Siansonea]

Tirigon wrote...

sleepyowlet wrote...

Now, now, let's be nice. The two of us are obviously not worth talking to. Let's stop spamming the thread with this nonsense.

This thread is so far beyond being able to be spammed. Siansonea posted so much this thread consists entirely of spam by now:innocent:

Point I Disagree With = Spam. <_<

By that logic, I can say the same about everything you've posted. I have consistently provided well-thought-out observations about this topic, but because they are ego-deflating for some people, they reflexively reject them and dismiss the actual point I make. Preferring a silent protagonist is subjective preference, and that is a valid viewpoint. What is NOT valid is the idea that the silent protagonist is inherently superior to the voiced protagonist, that people who prefer silent protagonists are somehow intellectually or creatively superior to the other group. I have consistently pointed out the fallacy that imagining dialog spoken is categorically more imaginative than hearing the words spoken by a voice actor. And yet the response I get is always along the lines of "whatever Spammy Spammington". So, who is derailing what here?