996 réponses à ce sujet

[ISnowdropI]

Those are all points I agree with, although, if they just chose a voice actor that suits how we envision the would-be character, it would be fine. The likelihood of Bioware getting the voice spot-on AND for the majority of DA3 players however, would probably be low. It is a shame, but maybe it would be safer keeping it to a silent protagonist.

Modifié par ISnowdropI, 07 avril 2011 - 10:43 .

[Embargoed]

Personally, I find it immersion breaking when every other character in the game has a voice but I don't. It's boring, bland, and completely uninteresting. Mostly though, it doesn't feel fair. Why should all of these unimportant characters get to say their two bits while my PC stares into the distance?

I don't really understand how people can say that they roleplay their character when the character doesn't even have a voice. He/She's just a cardboard cut out that stares at people, not a truly grand hero. RPGs are said to, ironically, have their origins in Tabletop games like D&D, but in D&D, I have a voice. I don't sit and stare at my DM while picking what to say from an index card. In D&D I say what I have to say while the DM controls the NPC and speaks for them. It's a conversation from character to character that feels natural and fluid.

Just because you're the type to sit at your T.V. or at your computer and read the words on the screen aloud or in your mind doesn't mean that we all are. If my character can't have a voice, I'd prefer it if no one else did. Then, at least, I could immerse myself into the story.

Modifié par Embargoed, 07 avril 2011 - 10:44 .

[AlanC9]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Why is that a propblem?  People keep saying it's a problem, but why is that?

It's no different from having the character speak the line that's printed below.  Either way information is being presented two different ways, and obviously one of those (the subtitles) is acceptable.  What's so different about the full-text option?

The difference is that with subtitles the text and the speech come simultaneously, so the voice isn't repeating something you've already read.

I believe the problem is supposed to be the repetition itself, according to focus group testing. Cant say for sure, since I don't have any problem with repetition, though I marginally prefer paraphrases since it means the PC's lines don't have to be limited to whatever the console interface can tolerate.

[Caralampio]

I thought for a moment that you were announcing a tool or mod that allowed you to get rid of them now.

[Liou]

I'm not a fan of voiced protagonists either. If i like the voice, good but it dosn't really add much to the experience and i would gladly trade it for more dialogue with my companions like in the first game. If i don't like the voice, i am gonna hate the dialogue. So basically, it's not worth it IMO. I also agree that it takes away from immersion.

I also agree about the dialogue wheel. I would like to know exactly what Hawke or Shepard is gonna say so i know my choices. This shouldn't even be hard to implent and it could be optional. Like every time you clic on one of the choices a short text with Shepards dialog scrolls across the screen.

That said, the dialogue wheel is a lot better than some of the other solutions i have seen. Have you played Alpha Protocol? instead of a short description you have a single word for every choice. And you have 1 second to answer when the NPCs stops talking. It makes the protagonist feels way too independent. In a roleplaying game, that's not a good thing. I love the genre because i like to create my own characters. If i merely wanted to observe i wouldn't buy RPGs, i would play Uncharted instead.

BioWares romances is second to none, ofcause it's not exactly because the competition is fierce, i mean, look what they are up against. But it is one aspect of their games i generaly like very much. That said, it needs improvements. Being forced to either behave like an **** or buying your love interests heart with gifts isn't optimal but interactive storytelling is still in its infancy.

[Sylvius the Mad]

ItsToofy wrote...

Anyone remember when you can press 1, 2, 3, etc. on the keyboard to select a dialogue option?....yeah....I guess matching a number to a selection is too hard.

You can select by number in DA2.  They just haven't printed the numbers on the screen.

It think it's:

4 - 1
5 - 2
6 - 3

But I'd have to check to be sure.  It's in the manual.

[Cell1e]

Eurypterid wrote...

I don't mind the protagonist being voiced. But I REALLY want to know what he/she is going to say when I click on my choice of response. Being jarred right out of the roleplay due to the surprise of "WTH is coming out of your mouth? I didn't want you to say THAT" is annoying as hell.

I'm not sure why the dialog wheel is necessary with the voiced protagonist. Everything stops and waits for your choice of response anyway, so why not do it in list format like in DA:O, allowing the player to actually read what's going to be said, and having the character actually say what the player chose? It's entirely possible there's a technical limitation preventing this type of format, but I'd much rather have it that way if possible than the dialog-wheel-of-mystery-responses in the game at present.

Me too!

I also want conversations and hugs and kisses whenever and wherever again. I miss being able to initiate chat with my party members whenever I want too

In origins I often stopped after a battle to give Alistair a hug whether he wanted to or not (hehe) It is exactly what I would do in real life, as I kiss and hug my husband a lot.

[Sylvius the Mad]

ISnowdropI wrote...

Those are all points I agree with, although, if they just chose a voice actor that suits how we envision the would-be character, it would be fine. The likelihood of Bioware getting the voice spot-on AND for the majority of DA3 players however, would probably be low.

They're guaranteed to fail if they try.  One of the reasons I play RPGs is so I can run different characters through the same situations to see how they react.  Those different characters should have different voices.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Embargoed wrote...

Personally, I find it immersion breaking when every other character in the game has a voice but I don't. It's boring, bland, and completely uninteresting. Mostly though, it doesn't feel fair. Why should all of these unimportant characters get to say their two bits while my PC stares into the distance?

I don't really understand how people can say that they roleplay their character when the character doesn't even have a voice. He/She's just a cardboard cut out that stares at people, not a truly grand hero.

I don't see myself speak when I talk to people.  I don't even really hear myself speak, as I'm not listening to me.  I know what I'm saying and how - it's more important that I concentrate on what the people around me are saying.

In this way, DAO's dialogue is just like real-life dialogue.  DA2 (and the ME games) are materially different in that I have to watch my character act and speak in order to know what's going on.  That separates me from the character.

I shouldn't have to watch him to know what he's doing.  I should already know what he's doing, because I'm the one making his decisions.  If I'm not the one making his decisions, why am I even here?  What's my role if not to control the character?

f my character can't have a voice, I'd prefer it if no one else did.

Fine, that settles it.  No voices for anyone.

Problem solved.  I look forward to DA3.

[Sylvius the Mad]

AlanC9 wrote...

The difference is that with subtitles the text and the speech come simultaneously, so the voice isn't repeating something you've already read.

But it is.  The subtitle appears immediately, and I read it.  The voiced line takes several seconds to unfold.  In both cases the voiced line happens after I've read the full line - the only difference is that in one case I got to make an informed decision and in the other I did not.

I believe the problem is supposed to be the repetition itself, according to focus group testing.

Then clearly the people in those groups were lunatics, as the repetition exists in both cases.  The only way the repetition doesn't exist is if there are no subtitles.

Since they seem to keen on forcing us to play the game in the way they intend, they shouldn't have included a subtitle options.  Their behaviour is inconsistent.

Cant say for sure, since I don't have any problem with repetition, though I marginally prefer paraphrases since it means the PC's lines don't have to be limited to whatever the console interface can tolerate.

But it also means that you don't know what your character is going to say.

[MonkeyLungs]

Eurypterid wrote...

I don't mind the protagonist being voiced. But I REALLY want to know what he/she is going to say when I click on my choice of response. Being jarred right out of the roleplay due to the surprise of "WTH is coming out of your mouth? I didn't want you to say THAT" is annoying as hell.

I'm not sure why the dialog wheel is necessary with the voiced protagonist. Everything stops and waits for your choice of response anyway, so why not do it in list format like in DA:O, allowing the player to actually read what's going to be said, and having the character actually say what the player chose? It's entirely possible there's a technical limitation preventing this type of format, but I'd much rather have it that way if possible than the dialog-wheel-of-mystery-responses in the game at present.

The NewFans from the NewSchool don't like reading when they play video games. NewFans want all NPC's to have voice acting and lots of cinematics. It isn't actually any more in depth or difficult to figure out than that.

[Giggles_Manically]

No thanks.

I detest having so stare at the back of some robots head for 60 hours that can telepathically transmit its thoughts into others heads.

Its not a better system.
Its an antique.

Fun to look out but outclassed by the newer approach,
Yes there are issues with a VO but its more interesting then staring at the back of something's head.

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

Nice post OP, and I agree with your points and could add a few more myself. All this stuff seems to shoot Bioware in the foot with certain players, a group to which I include myself. Lessening replay value of a game makes the game's life linger less and less in the mind of the gamer. And if a gamer loses interest, you don't hold on to a fan base. I really tried to play DA 2, but it doesn't hold must interest for me. I can't imagine playing through it once, much less more than once.

[cotheer]

Silent without the wheel FTW.
I'm ok with voiced companions, they're "scripted" anyway.

Atm, the game is just an interactive movie with a "pause, play, gotonextchapter" remote control buttons.

[Wyndham711]

I too hope that voiceless PC returns in the next game. That is clearly the most enjoyable solution for me.

[ItsToofy]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

No thanks.

I detest having so stare at the back of some robots head for 60 hours that can telepathically transmit its thoughts into others heads.

Its not a better system.
Its an antique.

Fun to look out but outclassed by the newer approach,
Yes there are issues with a VO but its more interesting then staring at the back of something's head.

The words are on the screen, stop staring at their head and read the words, really? you have an issue with reading?

[Sylvius the Mad]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

No thanks.

I detest having so stare at the back of some robots head for 60 hours that can telepathically transmit its thoughts into others heads.

Its not a better system.
Its an antique.

Fun to look out but outclassed by the newer approach,
Yes there are issues with a VO but its more interesting then staring at the back of something's head.

That can easily be remedied by not having a cinematic conversation interface.

NWN's conversations took place inside the regular game interface.  The camera didn't move, and the dialogue appeared in text boxes (just like the combat feedback did).

That's what I want.  I don't want cinematic conversations.  Ever.  They add nothing to the game, and take quite a lot away.

[fchopin]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I don't see myself speak when I talk to people.  I don't even really hear myself speak, as I'm not listening to me.  I know what I'm saying and how - it's more important that I concentrate on what the people around me are saying.

I was going to say that i don't remember what i feel when selecting text without a voice when the answer came to me as i remembered what i felt when playing text dialogue games.
 
I basically hear myself speak the words in my mind and there is nothing more powerful than imagination.

[Tommy6860]

marinerzz wrote...

If you want to fix your reputation after the complete debacle of DA2!

I want to know exactly what I'm telling my character to say, not just a summary (which gives the wrong impression often).

I don't want my PC to have a voice because it will never sound exactly how my character does in my mind and makes the character less my own.

All the non-interactive cinematics destroy immersion because I'm no longer controlling my character.

Fix these problems, i.e. make DA3 like DA:O but without a dumb romance character who only likes you if you're cartoonishly evil like Morrigan was, and you can start making good games again. Don't fix these problems and you will fail sooner rather than later!

I can agree with these with one modification; I really have no problem with the voiced PC. I think it actually can be more engaging, but to make it so, would be time consuming. As long as the answers or questions given by the PC in voice can have the proper inflections, it could actually be amazing. Add proper facial expessions, then I think it would be a winner. I sometimes disliked that "deer in the headlights" look, my PC had in Origins during conversation engagements with my companions, though that is minor gripe.

[1000questions]

Eurypterid wrote...

I don't mind the protagonist being voiced. But I REALLY want to know what he/she is going to say when I click on my choice of response. Being jarred right out of the roleplay due to the surprise of "WTH is coming out of your mouth? I didn't want you to say THAT" is annoying as hell.

I'm not sure why the dialog wheel is necessary with the voiced protagonist. Everything stops and waits for your choice of response anyway, so why not do it in list format like in DA:O, allowing the player to actually read what's going to be said, and having the character actually say what the player chose? It's entirely possible there's a technical limitation preventing this type of format, but I'd much rather have it that way if possible than the dialog-wheel-of-mystery-responses in the game at present.

Glad to see a moderator actually understanding us than saying we are just haters. Anyways back to the point

I completely agree with OP and others on the topic. In order for a voice Protagonist to work for an RPG like DA:O it has to work something similar to witcher ( just seen demos so not sure completely) .

Infact it is not just voice but the facial expressions need to be consistent with the tone, personality and event in the game.

In DA:O many complained that the warden had stone face and in any dialogues or events his facial expression,body language didnt change much, which was fair comment. However in DA2 the communication has been ripped apart and makes no sense.

Dialogue wheel can be more flashy than plain old linear series of lines and you can add all the cartoony icons but does it serves the purpose ? I guess not.

In RPG we want OUR/MY character to behave the way I want. In any discussionif whether it is light or serious moment,whether the decisions or dialogues spoken can change the entire course of game and give you an altogether different experience or not  but they have to be CLEAR .

In DA2 , the wheel makes a mockery , often it feels like a guessing game inspite of developers saying that the icons give you hint or the tone what the character is saying but that doesnt come out right. More often than not I didnt find my character to say what he said after choosing an option.

Come on this is basic communication, you dont have to add puzzle,mystery element in it. If you are so inclined to add those elements then add them through other means. The story needs to grip you more, make the things look mysterious and everytime I stride forward in game I get amazed, or shocked to the revelation.

If VOICE, WHEEL etc are so much burden to development that they have to RIP APART RPG elements than I would rather not have them IN AN RPG GAME.

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

It's no wonder that Western Civilization is falling behind, even our games no longer will require people to read or deal with statistical mathematics in the coming years if this is any pattern. We'll likely have our grandchildren staring at a cave wall at the odd symbol "RPG" and have them wonder what the sqwiggly lines mean shortly before a whistle blows and they all march off to work in the lead refinery run by our Chinese masters.

Modifié par Ryllen Laerth Kriel, 07 avril 2011 - 11:40 .

[Xewaka]

AlanC9 wrote...
I believe the problem is supposed to be the repetition itself, according to focus group testing. Cant say for sure, since I don't have any problem with repetition, though I marginally prefer paraphrases since it means the PC's lines don't have to be limited to whatever the console interface can tolerate.

The proper name is subvocalization, I think. People subvocalize the choice when reading the line and find repetitive hearing the line. Since people skipped the VA (because they already have the information) and Bioware couldn't have that, they went with the paraphrase wheel to force people to listen through the thing. I don't understand this obsession with forcing Voice Acting trough everything, specially when it comes at the cost of much more enjoyable features (such as character customization-we got a third of the options in DA:2 compared to DA:O).
Since apparently Bioware as a whole has contracted a pathology that forces them to shoehorn the paraphrase wheel into everything, I'd be happy if they simply had the subtitle drop atop the screen when hovering the cursor a reasonable amount of time over a paraphrase option - as it does now with the last part of the conversation as a reminder, if you spend some time without picking an option. Then people who have a problem with subvocalization can pick the paraphrase while people who actually want to know what their character will say can pick the appropriate full line after reading it and make an informed decision.

Modifié par Xewaka, 07 avril 2011 - 11:46 .

[Tommy6860]

Xewaka wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
I believe the problem is supposed to be the repetition itself, according to focus group testing. Cant say for sure, since I don't have any problem with repetition, though I marginally prefer paraphrases since it means the PC's lines don't have to be limited to whatever the console interface can tolerate.

The proper name is subvocalization, I think. People subvocalize the choice when reading the line and find repetitive hearing the line. Since people skipped the VA (because they already have the information) and Bioware couldn't have that, they went with the paraphrase wheel to force people to listen through the thing. I don't understand this obsession with forcing Voice Acting trough everything, specially when it comes at the cost of much more enjoyable features (such as character customization-we got a third of the options in DA:2 compared to DA:O).
Since apparently Bioware as a whole has contracted a pathology that forces them to shoehorn the paraphrase wheel into everything, I'd be happy if they simply had the subtitle drop atop the screen when hovering the cursor a reasonable amount of time over a paraphrase option - as it does now as a reminder of the last part of the conversation. Then people who have a problem with subvocalization can pick the paraphrase while people who actually want to know what their character will say can pick the appropriate full line after reading it and make an informed decision.

Good points, a critical thinking person given to finding a valid angle for me to ponder, thanks.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Xewaka wrote...

The proper name is subvocalization, I think. People subvocalize the choice when reading the line and find repetitive hearing the line.

That makes some sense.

I don't subvocalise when I read (I recognise that some people do, though I'm not sure why - it's like they're translating the written word to the spoken word in order to understand it), so maybe that's why the repetition doesn't concern me.

For me, choosing a dialogue option in an RPG is a fairly long process.  I need to parse each line in many different ways to find all the possible meanings so that I can find one that suits my character.  By the time I've selected an option it's been several seconds since I read them anyway.

[1000questions]

Xewaka wrote...

The proper name is subvocalization, I think. People subvocalize the choice when reading the line and find repetitive hearing the line. Since people skipped the VA (because they already have the information) and Bioware couldn't have that, they went with the paraphrase wheel to force people to listen through the thing. I don't understand this obsession with forcing Voice Acting trough everything, specially when it comes at the cost of much more enjoyable features (such as character customization-we got a third of the options in DA:2 compared to DA:O).
Since apparently Bioware as a whole has contracted a pathology that forces them to shoehorn the paraphrase wheel into everything, I'd be happy if they simply had the subtitle drop atop the screen when hovering the cursor a reasonable amount of time over a paraphrase option - as it does now with the last part of the conversation as a reminder, if you spend some time without picking an option. Then people who have a problem with subvocalization can pick the paraphrase while people who actually want to know what their character will say can pick the appropriate full line after reading it and make an informed decision.

Interesting points and suggestion made their.