996 réponses à ce sujet

[Tirigon]

erynnar wrote...

neppakyo wrote...

mrcrusty wrote...

- Skill checks?

"Bioware believes in streamlining RPGs elements out of RPGs."

Shh, they don't make RPG's anymore, thats so 90's.

Its Interactive movies now.

RPG is so pass'e, get with the times you two.

Sometimes, the old ways are the best after all.

[Killjoy Cutter]

neppakyo wrote...

mrcrusty wrote...

- Skill checks?

"Bioware believes in streamlining RPGs elements out of RPGs."

Shh, they don't make RPG's anymore, thats so 90's.

Its Interactive movies now.

More's the pity.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

- That's a lot of posts.

"The thread is already very long, couldn't you have used the edit function?"

Tirigon wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Suh-nap! "Duh-huh yer stupid" does not awesome comeback make. Try again.

It´s not a comeback it´s simply stating a fact.

I´ll show you what a COMEBACK is after my next ban. I´ll send you a link if you want, even[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/kissing.png[/smilie]

Boom, baby.

[Monica83]

And most important for all...Where is all the cinematics on da2? I can't number how many time my hawke have on the face a really stupid expression like:

Hawke:*see flemeth in dragon form* Expression: Ghu?

[Sylvius the Mad]

Amioran wrote...

Don't simplify the thing.  I understand your points, and with some I agree, but if you want to make comparisions, this one of the talk in RL vs. non-voiced rpg is completely wrong.

Firstly when you talk you cannot think (the talk is instinctive, a motive why the yogis always says that the logos come from the ego) and secondly you hear your voice in real time (albeit you don't turn your attention to it). The process happens in an ongoing fashion: i.e. you talk and hear and don't know what will happen next.

So, putting it in game:
1- You don't know exactly what you are going to say next, it's all in the mood of what is being said and what has been said before.
2- You hear your voice.

Seems like the wheel to me, isn't it?

Even if I accept your description of how speech works, it's still different in kind from the wheel because you don't have to listen to your own voice to find out what it is you said.

But more than that, I don't accept your description of speech.  If I'm speaking without having first worked out what it is I'm going to say, then I'm an idiot.  Why would anyone just start talking without making soe sort of rudimentary plan first?  Why would anyone say things he specifically wants to avoid saying?

He wouldn't.  The wheel doesn't mimic real-life expression at all.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Amioran wrote...

It doesn't happen in the same way because your ego is a part of you, so when you have a mood you know (at last in part) in anticipation what that mood will be and how you will behave (on ample terms); since Hawke is obviously not you, this is more difficult.

Hawke isn't me, but I am Hawke.  Otherwise roleplaying him would be impossible.

Still, there are occasions when the "slips" are completely off the mark of what you wanted to say. It happens mostly when you are angry and/or drunk or similar. In that cases the ego takes completely the lead and what comes next can be unpredictable.

No, there aren't.  Some of us construct whole sentences before we speak, because that's the only way to express oneself effectively.

If I haven't planned the remark in advance, then I generally can't speak at all.

Sure, you can pause an think before talking (I do it myself). However when you have a conversation you cannot pause every sentence to know exactly what you are going to say next, or you will feel like a robot. You go by the mood.

No, I pause before every line.  Unless my remark is very brief, or if my counterpart says what I expected (in which case I have the reply already prepared).

AlanC9 wrote...

So, if I'm reading these right, picking a dialog choice is a fundamentally analytic activity. You look over the options available, determine what each one of them means that your character will do in the gameworld, and select whichever one of those three or four options fits your character best.

I would agree with this, but then almost everything I do is a fundamentally analytic activity.

[Gotholhorakh]

ItsToofy wrote...

Silent protagonist, voiced protagonist isn't an "evolution" of the genre, it's just limiting how we perceive the voice of our PC to be by giving it a set voice, another reduction of the role playing feel of a game

Agreed. Voicing the PC also exponentially increases production effort.

There were vocal complainers about the lack of voice acting - unfortunately what's happened is a failure to judge the quality of that feedback.

The majority of us who were happy with the mostly unvoiced PC were not moaning about it. There's been no appropriate weighting of that demand, just somebody saying "here's feedback, let's implement this".

[AlanC9]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Even if I accept your description of how speech works, it's still different in kind from the wheel because you don't have to listen to your own voice to find out what it is you said.

Well, I've read some neuroscience stuff that says this is exactly what we do. But that's more In Exile's turf than mine.

Come to think of it, where is In Exile lately?

[17thknight]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

btwLei wrote...

How about multiple voices to choose from? Granted, that will not fix your issue with what he will exactly say.

That doesn't solve the problem.  Even if we got to design the voice ourselves using advanced acoustic tools, the delivery of each line would still be beyond our control.

They need to make the voices optional or discard them altogether.

Bingo.

How damn hard is this? Put in an option to turn the voiced PC off completely and dump that piece of **** dialogue wheel.

Then, with that garbage off, you get full text of what your charater will say.

 But oh no, that might take a full week of programming, and we can't have that!

[HeavyTankZA]

i'm sorry but i like a fully voiced pc, my biggest issue with origins was you felt faceless...

and the dialogue wheel can stay, i dig it

[17thknight]

HeavyTankZA wrote...

i'm sorry but i like a fully voiced pc, my biggest issue with origins was you felt faceless...

and the dialogue wheel can stay, i dig it

OH look, another person who isn't a fan of RPG's, I'm shocked.
I also "dig" not knowing what my character will say or do.

[Siansonea]

Well if there's one thing I've learned from this thread, it's that "RPG purists" are an even bigger group of babies than Talimancers. Congratulations for becoming The Most Annoying Group On The Internet™. I'm over it, so buh-bye. After all, I'm getting what I want from BioWare. Malign them and me all you want, but you'll only hurt your own "cause" by doing so.

I'll go hang out with the so-called "stupid" and "unimaginative" people—i.e., the ones who can adapt to new circumstances and offer feedback about video games without sounding like petulant infants who've dropped their pacifier. And if by "stupid" you mean "does not have a personality disorder" then you are free to call me that. And if by "unimaginative" you mean "doesn't think reading someone else's writing in a fake British accent is the epitome of imagination", then you are free to call me that too.

Have fun storming the castle kids.

[AlanC9]

Gotholhorakh wrote...
Agreed. Voicing the PC also exponentially increases production effort.

Exponentially is a bit strong there. Maybe it triples the money going to VO? Figuring male and female PC lines -- sometimes there are lines for the PC that don't result in different NPC lines, but OTOH there are typically some fairly long sequences where the PC doesn't have any lines, so the real figure could be off a bit in either direction.

While tripling the VO budget sounds big, what share of the total production budget goes to VO/

There were vocal complainers about the lack of voice acting - unfortunately what's happened is a failure to judge the quality of that feedback.

The majority of us who were happy with the mostly unvoiced PC were not moaning about it. There's been no appropriate weighting of that demand, just somebody saying "here's feedback, let's implement this".

Majority? Can you source that?

[AlanC9]

17thknight wrote...
How damn hard is this? Put in an option to turn the voiced PC off completely and dump that piece of **** dialogue wheel. 

Is that workable on consoles without really limiting the length of the PC's lines? I don't have a console, but it's my impression that there will be serious legibility issues with some of Hawke's lines if that was implemented.

Of course, you may not give a damn if console players have the option or not.

[AlanC9]

Siansonea II wrote...

Well if there's one thing I've learned from this thread, it's that "RPG purists" are an even bigger group of babies than Talimancers. Congratulations for becoming The Most Annoying Group On The Internet™. I'm over it, so buh-bye. After all, I'm getting what I want from BioWare. Malign them and me all you want, but you'll only hurt your own "cause" by doing so. 

You didn't know that already? 

But you should be a little more forgiving. Not just because you're winning on the substance, but because people always overreact to losses. It's just something about human psychology.

[the_one_54321]

<- is really rather glad that the Hilton Perez of this thread has finally decided to take leave of it. Maybe we can have a real discussion about it now instead of repetition of "oh, my hurt sensibilities, now let me try to one-up you on degrading comments!"


(and oh the irony of the "I'm leaving because you all can't stop being childish about what you want. Besides, I'm getting what I want so pffffffffffffft. Neener neener neener")

Modifié par the_one_54321, 11 avril 2011 - 07:26 .

[HeavyTankZA]

17thknight wrote...

HeavyTankZA wrote...

i'm sorry but i like a fully voiced pc, my biggest issue with origins was you felt faceless...

and the dialogue wheel can stay, i dig it

OH look, another person who isn't a fan of RPG's, I'm shocked.
I also "dig" not knowing what my character will say or do.

Don't for one moment think you know what i like and don't like.

[the_one_54321]

Question: what exactly was the problem with non-interactive cinematics again?

[Killjoy Cutter]

AlanC9 wrote...

17thknight wrote...
How damn hard is this? Put in an option to turn the voiced PC off completely and dump that piece of **** dialogue wheel. 

Is that workable on consoles without really limiting the length of the PC's lines? I don't have a console, but it's my impression that there will be serious legibility issues with some of Hawke's lines if that was implemented.

Of course, you may not give a damn if console players have the option or not.

Well, personally, I'm sick of the increasing trend of seeing PC games shackled to the limitations of consoles. 

[MegaTofu]

[quote]Siansonea II wrote...
Well if there's one thing I've learned from this thread, it's that "RPG purists" are an even bigger group of babies than Talimancers. Congratulations for becoming The Most Annoying Group On The Internet™. I'm over it, so buh-bye. After all, I'm getting what I want from BioWare. Malign them and me all you want, but you'll only hurt your own "cause" by doing so.[/quote]
And if there's one thing I've learned from my time in life, it is that if you sit on your high horse, talk down to people and call them infants, they tend to be serious and moderate in their responses to you, and not regard you as a pompous, I-know-better douche  (this was a lection in sarcasm, totally free of charge!)

[quote]I'll go hang out with the so-called "stupid" and "unimaginative" people—i.e., the ones who can adapt to new circumstances and offer feedback about video games without sounding like petulant infants who've dropped their pacifier.[/quote]
Again with the name calling? I know I used to call people "doodoo heads" and "poopy face" back when I was 6 years old, but some how I got over that by now.
Why should you adapt to the "new circumstances" when you don't approve of them? Do you alwasy just sit down, in the face of change in the world around you, instead of voicing your opinion on the matter at hand? If so, then do excuse me for suggesting what must be a terribly frightening society, where you don't always eat what you're being fed (see, I can be a pompous doche aswell. It's not hard, and it doesn't make you sound smart, as you can surely tell )
 
[quote]And if by "stupid" you mean "does not have a personality disorder" then you are free to call me that.[/quote]
Do you play every game, as you, yourself would have done it, if placed in the situation? I certainlly don't. My next playthrough of DA:O will be as a truly zealous templar, with his religious blinkers firmly on, who regards all mages as a abomination and the word of the Maker as the only true... truth. In reality I'm an outspoken atheist  So if that is what you mean by "split personality (I can make air quotes as well! By golly, I am almost matching your level of intellectual wit! - and I can be a pompous douche at the same time? Who would've thought!?).

[/quote]And if by "unimaginative" you mean "doesn't think reading someone else's writing in a fake British accent is the epitome of imagination", then you are free to call me that too.[/quote]
So instead, you are being "imaginative", listening to a fake British accent, reading someone else's writing? Please do explain my how you gained the imaginative highground (if such a place exists) on this one?

[quote]Have fun storming the castle kids.[/quote]
Seriously, is talking down to other people (who you don't have any idea who is - they might be your intellectual superior, I'm just sayin'), really so much fun that you have to do it in every second sentence. You must be the life of the party! 

[Kimaka]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Question: what exactly was the problem with non-interactive cinematics again?

Having non-interactive cinematics has the problem of taking the character out of the player's control and making them do or say whatever Bioware programmed in. For example, the grinning at Isabela once she implies sex with your character, or when Hawke says something during party banter which may not always reflect the way the player developed Hawke's personality.

It's a minor problem for me but still annoying since I am no longer controlling the way Hawke's personality develops because the game tries doing it for me.

[the_one_54321]

Kimaka wrote...
Having non-interactive cinematics has the problem of taking the character out of the player's control and making them do or say whatever Bioware programmed in. For example, the grinning at Isabela once she implies sex with your character, or when Hawke says something during party banter which may not always reflect the way the player developed Hawke's personality.

It's a minor problem for me but still annoying since I am no longer controlling the way Hawke's personality develops because the game tries doing it for me.

What if it were applied as in older Final Fantasy games? That is to say, no strict connection to the behavior of the PC, but just "action" sequences played out via a cutscene?

[Kimaka]

the_one_54321 wrote...

What if it were applied as in older Final Fantasy games? That is to say, no strict connection to the behavior of the PC, but just "action" sequences played out via a cutscene?

I don't mind that as much. Those are usually the result of the character being already in a fighting sequence and the cutscenes expand upon that.

[the_one_54321]

See, I really really like cutscenes. I would hate to see them go away. So I'd like to see some kind of compromise in that.

[Sylvius the Mad]

AlanC9 wrote...

Well, I've read some neuroscience stuff that says this is exactly what we do. But that's more In Exile's turf than mine.

That's what people typically do in low-stress environments where they feel comfortable being themselves.

1. People don't have to do that - as some examples here show, some people do construct the whole sentence in advance.  Autistic people almost always do that.

2. The in-game situations are often not low-stress, so the research doesn't apply.

3. We're not being ourselves at all.  We're playing a character who is different from us.  That's relevantly dissimilar from acting naturally and being yourself, because when you're acting as you choose words out of habit and construct sentences as you always have.  Speech becomes instinctual.  but you can't do that when you're playing a different character because your instincts don't apply to him.

Come to think of it, where is In Exile lately?

Law school, I think.  Given the season, he's probably writing finals.