996 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvius the Mad]

AlanC9 wrote...

Is that workable on consoles without really limiting the length of the PC's lines? I don't have a console, but it's my impression that there will be serious legibility issues with some of Hawke's lines if that was implemented.

Poor comparison.  DA2 was written assuming the paraphrase system.  Future games can be written with shorter lines, just as DAO and KotOR and NWN and BG were.

The game's design needs to accommodate its UI.

[Sylvius the Mad]

the_one_54321 wrote...

See, I really really like cutscenes. I would hate to see them go away. So I'd like to see some kind of compromise in that.

I dislike cutscenes.  Strongly.

[the_one_54321]

Well, it's already been well established that your overreaching motive is to write your own story with you PC.
However, IFF the game is going to force you to take a particular path one way or the other, I don't see what else could possible lost in getting a well rendered bit of vid on top of that.

[Kimaka]

the_one_54321 wrote...

See, I really really like cutscenes. I would hate to see them go away. So I'd like to see some kind of compromise in that.

The compromise I can see is continue to have cutscenes but don't have the character respond positively or negatively to NPCs without querying the player. They'll be able to keep in the action sequences or things like the character moving around or sitting. Of course, this is only my opinion. I haven't read much about people's reactions to cutscenes to get a general opinion of it.

[Tirigon]

AlanC9 wrote...

Gotholhorakh wrote...

The majority of us who were happy with the mostly unvoiced PC were not moaning about it. There's been no appropriate weighting of that demand, just somebody saying "here's feedback, let's implement this".

Majority? Can you source that?

DAO sales being bigger than DA2 sales?

Older RPGs generally being more successfull?

[Tirigon]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Question: what exactly was the problem with non-interactive cinematics again?

RP-wise it is that you no longer control your character, so it may do something that is totally out of character.

In addition, they are generally very bad, at least the ones involving your character.

Otoh, I quite like cinematics like the battle of Ostagar or the various "meanwhile at Loghain´s" scenes during Origins.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Amioran wrote...

Don't simplify the thing.  I understand your points, and with some I agree, but if you want to make comparisions, this one of the talk in RL vs. non-voiced rpg is completely wrong.

Firstly when you talk you cannot think (the talk is instinctive, a motive why the yogis always says that the logos come from the ego) and secondly you hear your voice in real time (albeit you don't turn your attention to it). The process happens in an ongoing fashion: i.e. you talk and hear and don't know what will happen next.

So, putting it in game:
1- You don't know exactly what you are going to say next, it's all in the mood of what is being said and what has been said before.
2- You hear your voice.

Seems like the wheel to me, isn't it?

That's... different.  Maybe it applies to some people.  I'm certainly able to talk and think at the same time.  Maybe others can't. 

[Gotholhorakh]

AlanC9 wrote...

Gotholhorakh wrote...
Agreed. Voicing the PC also exponentially increases production effort.

Exponentially is a bit strong there. Maybe it triples the money going to VO? Figuring male and female PC lines -- sometimes there are lines for the PC that don't result in different NPC lines, but OTOH there are typically some fairly long sequences where the PC doesn't have any lines, so the real figure could be off a bit in either direction.

While tripling the VO budget sounds big, what share of the total production budget goes to VO/

When you voice everything the PC does, for every piece of voice in a dialog involving the PC, you must have the other half of the dialog voiced by each voice actor doing the PC, for each time they speak, and then for each alternative available.

That, over the seconds it takes to type said dialog in; It was meant as a throwaway turn of phrase, but it's barely even hyperbolic when you get down to it.

More important than that obvious effect though - the repercussions for schedule and costs go beyond a simple extra set of assets: things get rewritten, expanded upon or edited for improvement during game development - which when everything is being voice acted lots more is going to be either 1) expensive, 2) time consuming or 3) simply not something which can be allowed - 3 is more than likely if (as is rumoured to be the case with DA2) schedules are being pushed hard by the guys who don't make the software/content themselves.

AlanC9 wrote...

There were vocal complainers about the lack of voice acting - unfortunately what's happened is a failure to judge the quality of that feedback.

The majority of us who were happy with the mostly unvoiced PC were not moaning about it. There's been no appropriate weighting of that demand, just somebody saying "here's feedback, let's implement this".

Majority? Can you source that?

I think you're missing something in my turn of phrase there

"It seems like the majority of turkeys probably won't be voting for Christmas this year"

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 11 avril 2011 - 09:23 .

[Moirnelithe]

HeavyTankZA wrote...

i'm sorry but i like a fully voiced pc, my biggest issue with origins was you felt faceless...

and the dialogue wheel can stay, i dig it

A lot of people arguing against a silent PC say that they don't like it because the PC's face looks really stupid and emotionless while the text options are shown. However, that has more to do with how the cinematics are delivered than with the lack of a voice over in my opinion. Get rid of the 'mug shot' cinematics during dialogue and you should have a much better experience -without- the need of alienating many of the players.

Anyway I'll repeat it again, voice overs mean -less- dialogue and choices because they limit the budget. How is that a good thing in an RPG? And how is it a good thing to limit choices in the few RPGs that are left when there are so many action oriented game companies out there that can do the action part way better than Bioware can? Instead of changing those few RPGs into action games why not just buy the action games and leave the RPGs alone? *shakes head* This is so frustrating I could just bite something. Preferably ML. Just saying.

[the_one_54321]

I remember not even having a view of the PCs face during most dialog. Which was ok with me.

[Kimaka]

I don't remember any either. Only side shots or a view of the backside of her head.

[bzombo]

17thknight wrote...

HeavyTankZA wrote...

i'm sorry but i like a fully voiced pc, my biggest issue with origins was you felt faceless...

and the dialogue wheel can stay, i dig it

OH look, another person who isn't a fan of RPG's, I'm shocked.
I also "dig" not knowing what my character will say or do.

get off your high horse. rpgs are not an exclusive club for snobs like you to talk down to others about.

[Sylvius the Mad]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Well, it's already been well established that your overreaching motive is to write your own story with you PC.
However, IFF the game is going to force you to take a particular path one way or the other, I don't see what else could possible lost in getting a well rendered bit of vid on top of that.

Being forced to follow a particular path (all RPGs do this to some extent - even tabletop games) does not require that you play a particular character not of your own making.

The small details of my character's behaviour matter to me.  In DAO when Daveth dies after drinking the Darkspawn blood, the PC has an aghast look on his face.  That was bad.  The game shouldn't have done that.

And older games didn't do that.  You literally never have that problem in NWN.  For that reason (among others), I think NWN is the superior roleplaying game.

[bzombo]

too many people think they are the defenders of what is allowed to be in a rpg. things evolve. people whined about origins not being rpg enough. now all of a sudden it's the holy grail of rpgs? get over yourselves. things have changed. i don't like some of these changes either. i used to play the gold box d&d games and loved them. if playing games gets people this upset, maybe they shouldn't play video games. they're supposed to be fun and relaxing. if all they do is make some people angry and snobbish, it may be time to find another hobby.

Modifié par bzombo, 11 avril 2011 - 10:18 .

[SilentK]

The wheel, voice and cinematics are the things that I like best about DA2 =) Hope that they will keep it for DA3!

[AlanC9]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Is that workable on consoles without really limiting the length of the PC's lines? I don't have a console, but it's my impression that there will be serious legibility issues with some of Hawke's lines if that was implemented.

Poor comparison.  DA2 was written assuming the paraphrase system.  Future games can be written with shorter lines, just as DAO and KotOR and NWN and BG were.

The game's design needs to accommodate its UI.

I didn't mean to imply it couldn't be done; just that it would be a constraint. Unless you have a problem with the paraphrases this is a cost with no benefit.

Edit: it worked fine in The Witcher, but Geralt's not exactly loquacious.

Modifié par AlanC9, 11 avril 2011 - 10:53 .

[the_one_54321]

[quote]Sylvius the Mad wrote...
The small details of my character's behaviour matter to me.  In DAO when Daveth dies after drinking the Darkspawn blood, the PC has an aghast look on his face.  That was bad.  The game shouldn't have done that./quote]
It's a small price to pay for a stirring sequence. If your character then went on to talk about his reaction in a way that you didn't like, well then I would see how that might just be too much to handle.

[We Tigers]

Once we get into the realm of third-person cameras, I find it hard to prefer a non-voiced character. Love the way it works in Fallout, but found it occasionally frustrating in DA:O. I guess it gives that game an overall more laid-back feel, but I agree that the dead stares of the Warden were a strange sight. I don't mind missing the full text, because most of the time the icons and sample text are very clear. Maybe I'm used to it from playing both Mass Effect games and getting a sense of what those paraphrases are likely to imply.

One problem I had with DA:O was that it wasn't clear from the dialogue options which were investigatory and which were point-of-no-return. Sometimes, that was cool; it made it feel like what I said mattered. However, it was often frustrating to miss content when I wanted to learn more about the lore from a given conversation before closing it out, and I think that's one big reason that I welcomed the dialogue wheel. There are still paths that limit the dialogue you can have, but the "Investigate"/generally left side of the wheel options help make sure you get to learn everything you can before choosing one of several move-forward options (which themselves often seemed to open up different dialogues paths). In this aspect, I think the dialogue wheel and its icons were a big success.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

See, I really really like cutscenes. I would hate to see them go away. So I'd like to see some kind of compromise in that.

I dislike cutscenes.  Strongly.

I'm with The_one on this one. I could deal with a compromise. In fact even suggested one for DA2 along the same lines.

Modifié par CoS Sarah Jinstar, 11 avril 2011 - 10:57 .

[AlanC9]

[quote]Gotholhorakh wrote...
When you voice everything the PC does, for every piece of voice in a dialog involving the PC, you must have the other half of the dialog voiced by each voice actor doing the PC, for each time they speak, and then for each alternative available.

That, over the seconds it takes to type said dialog in; It was meant as a throwaway turn of phrase, but it's barely even hyperbolic when you get down to it.[/quote]

Umm... yeah. I said you'd triple the VO budget. I'm assuming that there are only two PC voices, which is another issue.

[quote]
More important than that obvious effect though - the repercussions for schedule and costs go beyond a simple extra set of assets: things get rewritten, expanded upon or edited for improvement during game development - which when everything is being voice acted lots more is going to be either 1) expensive, 2) time consuming or 3) simply not something which can be allowed - 3 is more than likely if (as is rumoured to be the case with DA2) schedules are being pushed hard by the guys who don't make the software/content themselves.[/quote]

Bio already decided to accept those constraints when they went for full companion VO in KotOR, didn't they? since this happens in parallel I don't see how the time issues get worse because they're doing it for the PC too.

[quote]AlanC9 wrote...
[quote]
The majority of us who were happy with the mostly unvoiced PC were not moaning about it. There's been no appropriate weighting of that demand, just somebody saying "here's feedback, let's implement this".
[/quote]

Majority? Can you source that?

[/quote]

I think you're missing something in my turn of phrase there

"It seems like the majority of turkeys probably won't be voting for Christmas this year"

[/quote]

Gotcha. I missed it because I didn't see how any percentage of people who were happy about an unvoiced PC woudl be moaning about it.

[Merced652]

so you like when your character goes off on some long diatribe when you select a phrase that is two or three words? Or how about when i select one thing to say but i end up saying two different lines intersected by a singular line from the npc i was talking to?

[Sylvius the Mad]

the_one_54321 wrote...

It's a small price to pay for a stirring sequence. If your character then went on to talk about his reaction in a way that you didn't like, well then I would see how that might just be too much to handle.

All they would need to do is frame the shots such that my character's face wasn't visible (or better yet, so that my character wasn't in the scene at all).

Yes, ideally I'd rather there not be cutscenes (give us one interface and stick with it throughout the game), but if we're going to have cutscenes there are ways to do it better than DAO or DA2 did it.

Having the PC take part in the scene is part of the problem.  If I'm not in control of the character, then the character shouldn't act.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 11 avril 2011 - 11:04 .

[Vicious]

I am just really happy that they have already said the voiced protagonist is here to stay.

Woohoo

[Tommy6860]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...


The small details of my character's behaviour matter to me.  In DAO when Daveth dies after drinking the Darkspawn blood, the PC has an aghast look on his face.  That was bad.  The game shouldn't have done that.
.

I agree with most everything you've stated during the course of this thread, except this. Considering the story as follows, I think the expression follows considering the warden was not completely aware to what drinking from the cup entailed. Even Duncan was less than forthcoming up unto that point in the game. I somehow don't see someone literally dying in front of my eyes (of which I have actually experienced 4 times in my life) would not elicit some kind of visible emotional reaction.