Tirigon wrote...
Otoh, I quite like cinematics like the battle of Ostagar or the various "meanwhile at Loghain´s" scenes during Origins.
Did they? I missed that.Vicious wrote...
I am just really happy that they have already said the voiced protagonist is here to stay.
That you can't imagine it being true doesn't mean that other people can't.Tommy6860 wrote...
I agree with most everything you've stated during the course of this thread, except this. Considering the story as follows, I think the expression follows considering the warden was not completely aware to what drinking from the cup entailed. Even Duncan was less than forthcoming up unto that point in the game. I somehow don't see someone literally dying in front of my eyes (of which I have actually experienced 4 times in my life) would not elicit some kind of visible emotional reaction.
2papercuts wrote...
they've basically confirmed that VO main character is going to stay
We Tigers wrote...
Once we get into the realm of third-person cameras, I find it hard to prefer a non-voiced character. Love the way it works in Fallout, but found it occasionally frustrating in DA:O. I guess it gives that game an overall more laid-back feel, but I agree that the dead stares of the Warden were a strange sight. I don't mind missing the full text, because most of the time the icons and sample text are very clear. Maybe I'm used to it from playing both Mass Effect games and getting a sense of what those paraphrases are likely to imply.
One problem I had with DA:O was that it wasn't clear from the dialogue options which were investigatory and which were point-of-no-return. Sometimes, that was cool; it made it feel like what I said mattered. However, it was often frustrating to miss content when I wanted to learn more about the lore from a given conversation before closing it out, and I think that's one big reason that I welcomed the dialogue wheel. There are still paths that limit the dialogue you can have, but the "Investigate"/generally left side of the wheel options help make sure you get to learn everything you can before choosing one of several move-forward options (which themselves often seemed to open up different dialogues paths). In this aspect, I think the dialogue wheel and its icons were a big success.
Modifié par Tommy6860, 12 avril 2011 - 12:17 .
Sylvius the Mad wrote...
That you can't imagine it being true doesn't mean that other people can't.
Does your character have empathy? If not, then he might not react. He might be a hardened soldier and used to that sort of thing. BioWare can't know - therefore they can't decide that for you.
No. The solution isn't to leave the face emotionless. The solution is not to show the PC's face in the cutscene.Tommy6860 wrote...
Exactly, but if the character has been left with a blank look, and another posited their opposing view, would it then be less the definition because it doesn't fit yours?
No, you're still not getting it. Having the emotion displayed at all where the player hasn't controlled it directly risks breaking the character. Just because we can defend the emotion doesn't make it acceptable.A better example for your stance would have been in the "Retrun to Ostagar" DLC, where when you find the king dead and crucified, the expression of sadness is there, though in the opening stage of the Origins quest in Ostagar, where you first meet the king, you may talk as if you totally dislike him. There, the option to do to him what grates Alistair (or some other warrior) should elicit another expresssion, or one that simply looks with no care at all.
Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 12 avril 2011 - 12:17 .
Which is why they shouldn't show the PC's face in situations like that.Boiny Bunny wrote...
Unfortunately, it may well not be practical or appealing to the majority of Bioware's audience, for them to include the option to control your facial expressions for every event in the game.
Boiny Bunny wrote...
Unfortunately, it may well not be practical or appealing to the majority of Bioware's audience, for them to include the option to control your facial expressions for every event in the game.
Perhaps as a partial compromise, they could include a 'background' option similar to ME, which decides how you would visably react to certain events (e.g. Daveth dying after drinking from the cup) - rather than giving you 5 options for your facial expression after Daveth dies - then another 5 options for conversation after.
DocDoomII wrote...
But op!
If we discard the dialogue wheel we'll loose this pure-win mod!
http://www.dragonage...ile.php?id=2623
Sylvius the Mad wrote...
No. The solution isn't to leave the face emotionless. The solution is not to show the PC's face in the cutscene.Tommy6860 wrote...
Exactly, but if the character has been left with a blank look, and another posited their opposing view, would it then be less the definition because it doesn't fit yours?No, you're still not getting it. Having the emotion displayed at all where the player hasn't controlled it directly risks breaking the character. Just because we can defend the emotion doesn't make it acceptable.A better example for your stance would have been in the "Retrun to Ostagar" DLC, where when you find the king dead and crucified, the expression of sadness is there, though in the opening stage of the Origins quest in Ostagar, where you first meet the king, you may talk as if you totally dislike him. There, the option to do to him what grates Alistair (or some other warrior) should elicit another expresssion, or one that simply looks with no care at all.
Modifié par Tommy6860, 12 avril 2011 - 12:42 .
AlanC9 wrote...
Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Even if I accept your description of how speech works, it's still different in kind from the wheel because you don't have to listen to your own voice to find out what it is you said.
Well, I've read some neuroscience stuff that says this is exactly what we do. But that's more In Exile's turf than mine.
Come to think of it, where is In Exile lately?
Jerrybnsn wrote...
ItsToofy wrote...
Silent protagonist, voiced protagonist isn't an "evolution" of the genre, it's just limiting how we perceive the voice of our PC to be by giving it a set voice, another reduction of the role playing feel of a game. The PC should either be an extension of ourselves or someone that we have envisioned to be in that role, that's the point of role playing, this streamlining stuff that has been going on in our games and now voices and dialogue wheels that aren't "exactly" what we said but too bad style of design is basicaly the developers telling us "In Soviet Russia, PC roleplay you!"...and if you didn't understand the joke, which inevitably many of you will not, the game is playing itself almost that we lose alot of control in our role play for the sake of the greater good, which in this case seems to be some set storyline, emphasis on line. I didn't buy a graphical novel or a movie, I don't want to be distracted by waves of enemies and press your luck style dialogue wheel, no whammies no whammies, STOP! awww I guess I DID tell him to bugger off when it didnt say so in the wheel! I don't want interactive movies, I want control to be returned to the player...that's it...that's the point of playing a game, is to have control...which is why we are given controllers on the console and an arseload of buttons on a keyboard and mouse. I want my brain to be challenged with puzzles and tactics and strategy and money management and what armors and accessories work best on what character...no more streamlining, more RPG in my RPG please? that's all I'm asking. If they just want to remove bits and pieces from our gaming experience, then fine, but at least label it appropriately as a spin off or sequel, and an RPG or an action game.
Perfect!
You are my hero.
Embargoed wrote...
Roleplaying isn't sitting down and pretending that you can hear the gentle, fanciful screams of a Warden trapped in a cleverly disguised suit of linearity, it's actually getting up and assuming the role you've been given. Unless the PC is a mute, I'd rather not have him stand and look at someone while I choose between which sentence I like more.Jerrybnsn wrote...
ItsToofy wrote...
Silent protagonist, voiced protagonist isn't an "evolution" of the genre, it's just limiting how we perceive the voice of our PC to be by giving it a set voice, another reduction of the role playing feel of a game. The PC should either be an extension of ourselves or someone that we have envisioned to be in that role, that's the point of role playing, this streamlining stuff that has been going on in our games and now voices and dialogue wheels that aren't "exactly" what we said but too bad style of design is basicaly the developers telling us "In Soviet Russia, PC roleplay you!"...and if you didn't understand the joke, which inevitably many of you will not, the game is playing itself almost that we lose alot of control in our role play for the sake of the greater good, which in this case seems to be some set storyline, emphasis on line. I didn't buy a graphical novel or a movie, I don't want to be distracted by waves of enemies and press your luck style dialogue wheel, no whammies no whammies, STOP! awww I guess I DID tell him to bugger off when it didnt say so in the wheel! I don't want interactive movies, I want control to be returned to the player...that's it...that's the point of playing a game, is to have control...which is why we are given controllers on the console and an arseload of buttons on a keyboard and mouse. I want my brain to be challenged with puzzles and tactics and strategy and money management and what armors and accessories work best on what character...no more streamlining, more RPG in my RPG please? that's all I'm asking. If they just want to remove bits and pieces from our gaming experience, then fine, but at least label it appropriately as a spin off or sequel, and an RPG or an action game.
Perfect!
You are my hero.
Modifié par Tommy6860, 12 avril 2011 - 02:12 .
Jman5 wrote...
Respectfully, I disagree with all your points. I thought the dialogue wheel was fine; the voice acting for the main character was excellent; and the non interactive cinematics were not immersion breaking.
steve3194 wrote...
Jman5 wrote...
Respectfully, I disagree with all your points. I thought the dialogue wheel was fine; the voice acting for the main character was excellent; and the non interactive cinematics were not immersion breaking.
I agree with this.Mute protagonists are becoming a thing of the past and rightfully so.It makes no sense to have a party of fully voiced NPCs and yet the stories main character doesn't talk.Although voicing the protagonist may limit the amount of dialogue options it allows the games main character to have a personality which is very important in a characters like-ability. As the game Industry grows and grows we will most likely at some stage have the same flexibility with a voiced protagonist as with a mute one.
Tommy6860 wrote...
DocDoomII wrote...
But op!
If we discard the dialogue wheel we'll loose this pure-win mod!
http://www.dragonage...ile.php?id=2623
Changing the expression icons doesn't fix the broken dialogue though.
mrcrusty wrote...
steve3194 wrote...
Jman5 wrote...
Respectfully, I disagree with all your points. I thought the dialogue wheel was fine; the voice acting for the main character was excellent; and the non interactive cinematics were not immersion breaking.
I agree with this.Mute protagonists are becoming a thing of the past and rightfully so.It makes no sense to have a party of fully voiced NPCs and yet the stories main character doesn't talk.Although voicing the protagonist may limit the amount of dialogue options it allows the games main character to have a personality which is very important in a characters like-ability. As the game Industry grows and grows we will most likely at some stage have the same flexibility with a voiced protagonist as with a mute one.
I think that's the crux of the problem.
As it currently stands a voiced protagonist has much less flexibility than a mute one (dialogue options cut down, reduced, no choice in voice, etc). Which is why many people are against it. Having a voiced protagonist at this point in time means sacrificing in other areas which more traditional RPG fans consider to be more important.
I like to think it's the difference between depth and cinematics. Not to say that cinematic elements and conversations can't have depth, but it's harder to be both cinematic and contain depth in dialogue trees at the same time.
Once we get to a point where there are multiple voices to choose from, we lose the paraphrasing and the depth of conversations reaches the levels of older RPGs, I think most people will accept it. I would.
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