996 réponses à ce sujet

[edeheusch]

Herz2146 wrote...

It's funny looking through the responses and seeing who has been posting what. Many of us who have played ME and the original DA:O seem to like the new changes. Those who have only played DA seem to hate the new changes.

Personally I liked the new changes. Initially the game is very different from the original but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Ultimately I've been enjoying myself so far after the initial impressions. I thought adding in a voiced character was a huge improvement. The dialogue wheel is great too. It's not entirely like ME's. Although it's similar enough to keep me entertained.

Overall, there are going to be people who enjoy and hate every game. Am I a fanboy? Yeah... I play mostly Bioware games only. I mean this is a Bioware forum right? ...

Also, what's the point in talking about if there will be a DA3? There's a lot that goes into such a decision and that is beyond all of our knowledge. Half the reason I don't regularly post on these forums is because half of it seems to be flaming Bioware.

I would have formulated it differently: people that do not like (interactive movies with) voiced protagonist did not play ME.
There are people that really loved DAO but were never interested at all in the ME series because ME does not belong to a kind of game we like. When Bioware made DA2 much more like ME2 it narrowed its fanbase by dropping the fan of DAO that do not like the ME series. In addition, there are a lot of people that loved both DAO and ME but considered them as 2 different types of game that they do not want to see mixed.

We (me and the people with similar taste) don’t see the fact that the DA franchise dropped some of its core mechanisms (like the choice of race and origin) to borrow some mechanism of a game that we don’t like, as an evolution.

[Tommy6860]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

That you dismiss my remarks as mere opinion demonstrates that you don't understand what I've said.

Now you're just dealing with ad hominem, when I've done no such thing. If I were as dismissive as you think, I simply wouldn't have replied.

You seem unable to comprehend that other characters - those meaningfully different from the one(s) you played - would have problems there.

And condescension will get you nowhere, fast. I comprehend the other characters fine, I could just as easily say that because I didn't feel I needed to add that aspect because I thought you weren't arroagnt enough to think others cannot be as arcane to RPGs as you are, in that you somehow would be dismissive of something I thought worked for that one aspect of the game. I understand what you are saying and telling me twice that I don't understand, won't work a third time. All I am saying is that your opinion is not the end all-be all defining microcosm of an RPG, in that my one little moment that made me feel a certain way, makes it less an RPG. If it works for you the way you think it should, then that is fine. I see it working in some other aspects. You seem more bent on getting me to define your side is right than seeing that I don't mind that either side is right.

If I wanted to really get hardcore, I'd say true role playing does not use PC graphics, only the tried and true days of real P&P role playing does.

Modifié par Tommy6860, 12 avril 2011 - 01:11 .

[simonc4175]

[quote]Curlain wrote...
[/quote]

For a number of us the silent PC isn't silent, they are the avatar through which I act out my character ingame and interact with companions, npcs and the game world at large, I look at the responses in the dialogue tree and know exactly which one the character I'm playing would respond with, and know exactly the tone and inflection etc they say it with, and hear it in my head as I read it (since I'm RPing as that character, and in my mind speaking ath line) and they I get the immediate response to what I've said.  The silent PC isn't emotionless to those of us who have this playstyle, in an ingame avatar that allows us to interact directly with the companions and npcs in the game.[/quote]


The Warden was always emotionless,  they never smiled, made a joke, got angry or displayed any type of responce.

Both games has the same companion interaction with dialog leading to quests and responces hive agreement of disaproval so there's no real difference between the two games.

[quote]
The voiced PC and paraphrase system in ME and DA2 push me right out of the game, and relegate me to watching a movie, one in which I just direct the main character in a general way in their conversation.  So to me If feel very clearly that I'm just watching and directing a character that isn't mine, and I'm not able to be involved directly in the game world through the medium of my PC character (as I could in the silent PC/dialogue tree system)
[/quote]

My point was that regardless of system your still controlling an avatar and directing their actions.

The sentance system is more like reading a book and more often that not Origins extra lines where just fillers and fluff.

If your RPGing in your mind and reacting how "The Warden" would in game then aren't really just paraphrasing the character as you do Hawke in DA;2 ?.

Whether you press 1,2,3 and like the interactive book approach or prefer the dialog wheel and the movie approach the end result is really the same but my preference is the dialog wheel just makes the game look more modern then sentances ina black box.

[17thknight]

I like how I created a thread 9 months ago saying this would happen, that the wheel would **** up the experience, that the stupid emoticons would ruin everything, and everyone blah blah blah'd about how it was going to be "SO ZOMG AWESOME!" I sit with my smug smirk and that "I told you so" look in my eyes as I look at my monitor.


Click my profile, go give it a read, I think it all turned out to be true.

I feel prescient.

I should begin playing the Lottery.

Modifié par 17thknight, 12 avril 2011 - 01:28 .

[Curlain]

simonc4175 wrote...


The Warden was always emotionless,  they never smiled, made a joke, got angry or displayed any type of responce.

Both games has the same companion interaction with dialog leading to quests and responces hive agreement of disaproval so there's no real difference between the two games.


My point was that regardless of system your still controlling an avatar and directing their actions.

The sentance system is more like reading a book and more often that not Origins extra lines where just fillers and fluff.

If your RPGing in your mind and reacting how "The Warden" would in game then aren't really just paraphrasing the character as you do Hawke in DA;2 ?.

Whether you press 1,2,3 and like the interactive book approach or prefer the dialog wheel and the movie approach the end result is really the same but my preference is the dialog wheel just makes the game look more modern then sentances ina black box.

Here you describe the very disconnect between those liking two different systems.  For those players liking the dialogue wheel and the paraphrase you like watch the main character react to the characters and world, and so for you the Warden is always emotionless.  But for me how can my Warden be emotionless when I'm acting as him ingame.  He does smile, react, joke and very much does react to everything that happens around him.  LIke I said he's the avatar for me to RP my Warden in that game, if the model was to reactive on it's own account it would get in the way of me being able to RP my own character ingame.  It works perfectly with the overhead camera, I am reacting through the medium of the avatar ingame.

For someone like me, while I can control and direct a character like Shepard or Hawke, that's it.  They are their own characters, who react their own way, and whom I only direct in terms of tone etc, but I have no idea how that character will say something, they act in their own way and I watch them.  They are like a companion character that I have more influence over.  For a player like me, I can't RP them, like I can the Warden, they are not an avatar through which I can act out my character ingame, they are a character I can direct.  For me it is a very different playstyle, and not my favourite at all.

Modifié par Curlain, 12 avril 2011 - 01:47 .

[Mantaal]

Curlain wrote...

simonc4175 wrote...


The Warden was always emotionless,  they never smiled, made a joke, got angry or displayed any type of responce.

Both games has the same companion interaction with dialog leading to quests and responces hive agreement of disaproval so there's no real difference between the two games.


My point was that regardless of system your still controlling an avatar and directing their actions.

The sentance system is more like reading a book and more often that not Origins extra lines where just fillers and fluff.

If your RPGing in your mind and reacting how "The Warden" would in game then aren't really just paraphrasing the character as you do Hawke in DA;2 ?.

Whether you press 1,2,3 and like the interactive book approach or prefer the dialog wheel and the movie approach the end result is really the same but my preference is the dialog wheel just makes the game look more modern then sentances ina black box.

Here you describe the very disconnect between those liking to different system.  For those players liking the dialogue wheel and the paraphrase you like watch the main character react to the characters and world, and so for you the Warden is always emotionless.  But for me how can my Warden be emotionless when I'm acting as him ingame.  He does smile, react, joke and very much does react to everything that happens around him.  LIke I said he's the avatar for me to RP my Warden in that game, if the model was to reactive on it's on account it would get in the way of me being able to RP my own character ingame.  It works perfectly with the overhead camera, I am reacting through the medium of the avatar ingame.

For someone like me, while I can control and direct a character like Shepard or Hawke, that's it.  They are their own characters, who react their own way, and whom I only direct in terms of tone etc, but I have no idea how that character will say something, they act in their own way and I watch them.  They are like a companion character that I have more influence over.  For a player like me, I can't RP them, like I can the Warden, they are not an avatar through which I can act out my character ingame, they are a character I can direct.  For me it is a very different playstyle, and not my favourite at all.

Shepard and Hawke dont even say what i want them to say. Because i can just guess what comes out of his mouth. I have to reload almost after every conversation because of that. the Wheel says "I love you" and Hawke says "You are not that bad" thats a huge difference.
It destroys the option that you have any control over your Charakter in conversations.

[Killjoy Cutter]

steve3194 wrote...

Monica83 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Well if there's one thing I've learned from this thread, it's that "RPG purists" are an even bigger group of babies than Talimancers. Congratulations for becoming The Most Annoying Group On The Internet™. I'm over it, so buh-bye. After all, I'm getting what I want from BioWare. Malign them and me all you want, but you'll only hurt your own "cause" by doing so.

I'll go hang out with the so-called "stupid" and "unimaginative" people—i.e., the ones who can adapt to new circumstances and offer feedback about video games without sounding like petulant infants who've dropped their pacifier. And if by "stupid" you mean "does not have a personality disorder" then you are free to call me that. And if by "unimaginative" you mean "doesn't think reading someone else's writing in a fake British accent is the epitome of imagination", then you are free to call me that too.

Have fun storming the castle kids.

oh look a fanboy

Since i have not problem with a voiced protagonist but kill that damn dialog wheel with the schematic paraphrase system it's a shame in a game like dragon age.....

Ho here's the dialogue sarcastic button,aggressive button,diplomatic button,investigate but where i can see my answers???

seeing the exact answers can sometimes take away from the experience.espicelly with the funny lines
jokes don't have much impact when you already know whats coming

I'd still rather never be surprised by the response of the character I'm playing.  I'm not directing an amateur movie here, I'm playing a CRPG.

[Mecher3k]

Herz2146 wrote...

It's funny looking through the responses and seeing who has been posting what. Many of us who have played ME and the original DA:O seem to like the new changes. Those who have only played DA seem to hate the new changes.

I would rather have the silent PC like in DA:O back, and yet I love the Mass Effect series.

What's that smell? Smells like.... an idiot's destroyed argument.

[Mecher3k]

edeheusch wrote...

In addition, there are a lot of people that loved both DAO and ME but considered them as 2 different types of game that they do not want to see mixed.

This, winning!

[TEWR]

Mecher3k wrote...

Herz2146 wrote...

It's funny looking through the responses and seeing who has been posting what. Many of us who have played ME and the original DA:O seem to like the new changes. Those who have only played DA seem to hate the new changes.

I would rather have the silent PC like in DA:O back, and yet I love the Mass Effect series.

What's that smell? Smells like.... an idiot's destroyed argument.

That smell. A kind of smelly smell. The type of smelly smell that smells.... smelly.

[AlanC9]

Curlain wrote...
For a number of us the silent PC isn't silent, they are the avatar through which I act out my character ingame and interact with companions, npcs and the game world at large, I look at the responses in the dialogue tree and know exactly which one the character I'm playing would respond with, and know exactly the tone and inflection etc they say it with, and hear it in my head as I read it (since I'm RPing as that character, and in my mind speaking ath line) and they I get the immediate response to what I've said.

We touched on this a little upthread. I'm not sure everyone approaches using a silent PC that way. I certainly don't.

When I see the dialog options, I don't try to figure out how my PC would say those lines. I try to figure out how the Bio dialog writer thought they were meant to be said. The NPCs will react to what the writer thought the PC's line was, not whatever version of that line exists in my head. Trying to put my own spin on those lines strikes me as pointless at best, and positively counterproductive if the version in my head is different enough that the NPC will respond to something I didn't think I was making my PC say.

[Sylvius the Mad]

AlanC9 wrote...

When I see the dialog options, I don't try to figure out how my PC would say those lines. I try to figure out how the Bio dialog writer thought they were meant to be said.

Because you're playuing a game rather than playing a character.  You're making meta-game decisions as a regular part of your gameplay.

Of course the game works differently for you.  You're playing in a way entirely unlike the way roleplayers would play it.

RPG gameplay consists entirely of in-character decision-making.  if you're ever required to make a decision out-of-character, the game has failed. 

[neppakyo]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

When I see the dialog options, I don't try to figure out how my PC would say those lines. I try to figure out how the Bio dialog writer thought they were meant to be said.

Because you're playuing a game rather than playing a character.  You're making meta-game decisions as a regular part of your gameplay.

Of course the game works differently for you.  You're playing in a way entirely unlike the way roleplayers would play it.

RPG gameplay consists entirely of in-character decision-making.  if you're ever required to make a decision out-of-character, the game has failed. 

This ^^

Exactly right.

[the_one_54321]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Because you're playuing a game rather than playing a character.  You're making meta-game decisions as a regular part of your gameplay.

These are not mutually exclusive. You have your style of character portrayal and he has his. More to the point, you do not explicitly need to be the person that creates a character in order to roleplay that character.

Your style of roleplaying may be intended to be as pure as possible, but the one thing you really need to stop assuming is that your style of roleplaying is the only style that is actually role playing.

[Dark83]

The "my character says it as I want to" view fails because no game accommodates that. It is always "How did the writer mean this line to be said?"

I've run into a case once or twice where the way I thought a line was said is completely different from how it was actually said, judging by the response. (I'm not talking voiced dialog here.)

[TEWR]

Strangely Brown wrote...

I only agree with the OP's first point. As for voice acted, I prefer it and I don't mind the non-interactive cut scenes. The one thing I do wish though...is that during the damn cut scenes you could pause it, I always seem to get interrupted during the longer ones, miss half of it and then have to re-watch it....very irritating.

Are you playing on PC, PS3, Xbox360, or Mac?

[Psython]

Dark83 wrote...

The "my character says it as I want to" view fails because no game accommodates that. It is always "How did the writer mean this line to be said?"

I've run into a case once or twice where the way I thought a line was said is completely different from how it was actually said, judging by the response. (I'm not talking voiced dialog here.)

If you have a silent protagonist then that issue is basically non-existant. Thats what people have been saying for pages is that the silence and more dialog options leaves more open to interpretation, allowing players to have a meaningfull role playing experience. When the character is fully voiced, he/she basically has a defined personality which makes roleplaying next to impossible. Its true that sometimes you get cases where you start to question the writers intent. However, I think the goal of a RPG is to minimize these cases and provide a framework for the players imagination to take off. With full voice acting, the game goes in another direction entirely and becomes more of an action-adventure type game. Clearly, while no crpgs are perfect for roleplaying and even DAO had problems, DA2 makes it impossible to roleplay anything other then Hawk. The only thing you can choose is whether Hawk is diplomatic, "witty", or a strait to the point toughguy. 

I think both styles of game have merit but I fear that the silent protagonist is going to be fazed out entirely and RPGs will transition into more adventure territory. Sometimes the focus on a single character is great, but DAO was known for its roleplayability, which was lost in the sequel for the most part.  

[TEWR]

Psython wrote...

Dark83 wrote...

The "my character says it as I want to" view fails because no game accommodates that. It is always "How did the writer mean this line to be said?"

I've run into a case once or twice where the way I thought a line was said is completely different from how it was actually said, judging by the response. (I'm not talking voiced dialog here.)

If you have a silent protagonist then that issue is basically non-existant. Thats what people have been saying for pages is that the silence and more dialog options leaves more open to interpretation, allowing players to have a meaningfull role playing experience. When the character is fully voiced, he/she basically has a defined personality which makes roleplaying next to impossible. Its true that sometimes you get cases where you start to question the writers intent. However, I think the goal of a RPG is to minimize these cases and provide a framework for the players imagination to take off. With full voice acting, the game goes in another direction entirely and becomes more of an action-adventure type game. Clearly, while no crpgs are perfect for roleplaying and even DAO had problems, DA2 makes it impossible to roleplay anything other then Hawk. The only thing you can choose is whether Hawk is diplomatic, "witty", or a strait to the point toughguy. 

I think both styles of game have merit but I fear that the silent protagonist is going to be fazed out entirely and RPGs will transition into more adventure territory. Sometimes the focus on a single character is great, but DAO was known for its roleplayability, which was lost in the sequel for the most part.  

Except, if you're talking about DA:O as an example, you never had a silent protagonist. You had to pick his/her voice in character creation which is how he then sounds to the people of Thedas. Whether people like it or not, once you picked that voice that's how he sounded. Not something that they imagined in their own mind. A truly silent protagonist is what's seen in Suikoden IV. The main character had a set appearance but was silent all the time. You couldn't pick his voice.

[AlanC9]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

When I see the dialog options, I don't try to figure out how my PC would say those lines. I try to figure out how the Bio dialog writer thought they were meant to be said.

Because you're playuing a game rather than playing a character.  You're making meta-game decisions as a regular part of your gameplay.

Of course the game works differently for you.  You're playing in a way entirely unlike the way roleplayers would play it.

RPG gameplay consists entirely of in-character decision-making.  if you're ever required to make a decision out-of-character, the game has failed. 

Sylvius, I rarely say this to you, but that's silly. Picking from a list of pregenerated options and trying to recast one in whatever tone makes it fit your character best is simply not an in-character activity. It's more like acting than anything else, with Bio as the scriptwriter and you as the performer.

And again, the character says what the Bio writer thought he did when you pick that option, not what you thought the line was or ought to have been.

Edit: hey, how come I haven't seen you advocating a TES-style keyword system? That really would allow RP-ing the way you say you do it.

Modifié par AlanC9, 12 avril 2011 - 07:44 .

[the_one_54321]

Strangely Brown wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Sylvius, I rarely say this to you, but that's silly. Picking from a list of pregenerated options and trying to recast one in whatever tone makes it fit your character best is simply not an in-character activity. It's more like acting than anything else, with Bio as the scriptwriter and you as the performer.

No I agree with Sylvius.  Of course it is not open role playing.  You still have to play under the confines of the script written for the game etc.  But really if you are playing the role of the character you should be choosing the dialogue appropriate to that role.  That is the whole point of choice here.  If they truly wanted you to select the dialogue that the writer wanted to say there would be no dialogue choices just a non-interactive cutscene.

I agree with both of them. It is silly. But there's absolutely  no reason to tell anyone not to do it.

The important thing: neither way is "wrong."

Modifié par the_one_54321, 12 avril 2011 - 07:50 .

[Tirigon]

AlanC9 wrote...

Edit: hey, how come I haven't seen you advocating a TES-style keyword system? That really would allow RP-ing the way you say you do it.

Key words don´t allow lRPing. They are like paraphrases, only without a spoken line afterwards - but therefore even worse.

The problem is, you have no idea what the keyword means.

Imagine DA2 with that : You have - again - to pick a side.

You chose keyword mage.  Now, did you pick the mage´s side or did you decide to kill the mages?

[AlanC9]

Strangely Brown wrote...
No I agree with Sylvius.  Of course it is not open role playing.  You still have to play under the confines of the script written for the game etc.  But really if you are playing the role of the character you should be choosing the dialogue appropriate to that role.  That is the whole point of choice here.  If they truly wanted you to select the dialogue that the writer wanted to say there would be no dialogue choices just a non-interactive cutscene.

Sure, you pick the dialog that's appropriate to the character. But you only have the options that the writer put there. Not the ones that a creative misreading of the text might give you.

Edit: speaking of misreading, where on earth did you get the idea that I was looking for the option that the writer wanted me to pick?

Modifié par AlanC9, 12 avril 2011 - 08:00 .