996 réponses à ce sujet

[Miashi]

Vicious wrote...
If the game is sufficiently awesome, people will be less bothered by a voiced protagonist.

But since DA2 failed, on many levels, many of the hardcore fans here want to go back to the 'tried and true'-ness of DA:O.

See I agree with you on this, but in a different way; I prefer voiced protagonist, but had the game been awesome, the poor voice acting would've been a minor detail.

Because the game is mediocre at best, the voice acting just makes me cringe in this game even more than, let's say, male shepard in ME1. Male shep sounded pretty generic in ME1, but the game was so awesome that it was just a minor inconvenience.

[Xaltar81]

Voiced protagonists do not belong in the DA franchise IMO. DA:O was what set the stage for the DA world and to throw out the entire dialogue system in favor of "good, neutral, bad" and a summary that most often didn't convey what was voiced was just bad planning. I personally detest being force fed what my character sounds like or what they are going to say. If I click "Shut up you silly cow" I don't want my character to say "Please be quiet for a minute you wonderful person you". The wheel wasn't the problem, it was how it was implimented. I don't care if there is a wheel or the old tree system what I do care about is getting rid of the stupid icons and making the character say exactly what the option I click says if they absolutely must have voicing. There is no reason at all why they couldn't do a rollover on the wheel that shows exactly what will be said, the dialogue is already in text form for the subtitles anyway.

I am more of a P&P player and prefer my characters to be shaped by my imagination, not by some preselected voice actor. This was the least of what was wrong with DA2 though. While resolving these issues may be a good start to getting DA3 on the right track, it will in no way ensure that it is better than DA2. To me the worst element of DA2 was the forcefed narative, retrospective storytelling has no place in this kind of RPG IMO, DA:O was about choice DA2 took all that away from you. Before fans of DA2 jump in and start quoting places where DA2 offered choices or downplaying the choices in DA:O bare in mind that this is the overall impression I had after making a playthrough of the game. DA2 gives plenty of personal choices but I certainly do not feel that a silly letter is enough of a consiquence for my actions. Its not the lack of choice that bothers me about DA2 it is the repricussions of said choices I found to be completely lacking coupled with certain places where there should have been choices but where none. The only thing I could effect in DA2 was how my character made money and how many of the companions I clicked the heart icon for. Not entirely accurate but it is how I felt after my one and only playthrough. Basicly I felt as though I was beeing pulled through the story by my scrotum and nothing I said or did would effect the outcome in any substantial way. That is not how you should feel after playing an RPG. I am well past being angry about DA2 but in hopes that DA3 can be saved before it too becomes a letdown I felt I should add my 2p here.

[Tommy6860]

Xaltar81 wrote...

Voiced protagonists do not belong in the DA franchise IMO. DA:O was what set the stage for the DA world and to throw out the entire dialogue system in favor of "good, neutral, bad" and a summary that most often didn't convey what was voiced was just bad planning. I personally detest being force fed what my character sounds like or what they are going to say. If I click "Shut up you silly cow" I don't want my character to say "Please be quiet for a minute you wonderful person you". The wheel wasn't the problem, it was how it was implimented. I don't care if there is a wheel or the old tree system what I do care about is getting rid of the stupid icons and making the character say exactly what the option I click says if they absolutely must have voicing. There is no reason at all why they couldn't do a rollover on the wheel that shows exactly what will be said, the dialogue is already in text form for the subtitles anyway.

I am more of a P&P player and prefer my characters to be shaped by my imagination, not by some preselected voice actor. This was the least of what was wrong with DA2 though. While resolving these issues may be a good start to getting DA3 on the right track, it will in no way ensure that it is better than DA2. To me the worst element of DA2 was the forcefed narative, retrospective storytelling has no place in this kind of RPG IMO, DA:O was about choice DA2 took all that away from you. Before fans of DA2 jump in and start quoting places where DA2 offered choices or downplaying the choices in DA:O bare in mind that this is the overall impression I had after making a playthrough of the game. DA2 gives plenty of personal choices but I certainly do not feel that a silly letter is enough of a consiquence for my actions. Its not the lack of choice that bothers me about DA2 it is the repricussions of said choices I found to be completely lacking coupled with certain places where there should have been choices but where none. The only thing I could effect in DA2 was how my character made money and how many of the companions I clicked the heart icon for. Not entirely accurate but it is how I felt after my one and only playthrough. Basicly I felt as though I was beeing pulled through the story by my scrotum and nothing I said or did would effect the outcome in any substantial way. That is not how you should feel after playing an RPG. I am well past being angry about DA2 but in hopes that DA3 can be saved before it too becomes a letdown I felt I should add my 2p here.

Essentially what I got from the game, but it seems my experience was even worse. The ending was just a zero sum to a game full of mini-questing irrelevant to what any kind of story there was. Aside from the poor scripting for my character and how I felt so out of touch with the repsonses that didn't meet what I thought I was conveying. You at least got something more. I am very wary of DA3, if that is even going to be a release
:(

[Dragoonlordz]

Tommy6860 wrote...

Xaltar81 wrote...

Voiced protagonists do not belong in the DA franchise IMO. DA:O was what set the stage for the DA world and to throw out the entire dialogue system in favor of "good, neutral, bad" and a summary that most often didn't convey what was voiced was just bad planning. I personally detest being force fed what my character sounds like or what they are going to say. If I click "Shut up you silly cow" I don't want my character to say "Please be quiet for a minute you wonderful person you". The wheel wasn't the problem, it was how it was implimented. I don't care if there is a wheel or the old tree system what I do care about is getting rid of the stupid icons and making the character say exactly what the option I click says if they absolutely must have voicing. There is no reason at all why they couldn't do a rollover on the wheel that shows exactly what will be said, the dialogue is already in text form for the subtitles anyway.

I am more of a P&P player and prefer my characters to be shaped by my imagination, not by some preselected voice actor. This was the least of what was wrong with DA2 though. While resolving these issues may be a good start to getting DA3 on the right track, it will in no way ensure that it is better than DA2. To me the worst element of DA2 was the forcefed narative, retrospective storytelling has no place in this kind of RPG IMO, DA:O was about choice DA2 took all that away from you. Before fans of DA2 jump in and start quoting places where DA2 offered choices or downplaying the choices in DA:O bare in mind that this is the overall impression I had after making a playthrough of the game. DA2 gives plenty of personal choices but I certainly do not feel that a silly letter is enough of a consiquence for my actions. Its not the lack of choice that bothers me about DA2 it is the repricussions of said choices I found to be completely lacking coupled with certain places where there should have been choices but where none. The only thing I could effect in DA2 was how my character made money and how many of the companions I clicked the heart icon for. Not entirely accurate but it is how I felt after my one and only playthrough. Basicly I felt as though I was beeing pulled through the story by my scrotum and nothing I said or did would effect the outcome in any substantial way. That is not how you should feel after playing an RPG. I am well past being angry about DA2 but in hopes that DA3 can be saved before it too becomes a letdown I felt I should add my 2p here.

Essentially what I got from the game, but it seems my experience was even worse. The ending was just a zero sum to a game full of mini-questing irrelevant to what any kind of story there was. Aside from the poor scripting for my character and how I felt so out of touch with the repsonses that didn't meet what I thought I was conveying. You at least got something more. I am very wary of DA3, if that is even going to be a release
:(

Your both not alone, quite a vast amount of people on here feel the same including myself. I would even guess that the same could be said for the million+ people who don't come on here but bought it, hated it and sold it again. No way of knowing for sure but the user reviews on many sites would indicate that.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 13 avril 2011 - 02:50 .

[sleepyowlet]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Your both not alone, quite a vast amount of people on here feel the same including myself. I would even guess that the same could be said for the million+ people who don't come on here but bought it, hated it and sold it again. No way of knowing for sure but the user reviews on many sites would indicate that.

Well, if you count the fact that every second hand store in my area now has at least two copies of DA2 for PC at the same time, while it's still hard to find a copy of DA:O as an indicator, well, then it would seem that there are quite a lot unhappy customers out there...

[Harorrd]

If you think about it, voiced hero is actually a thing that reduces your relation to your hero.

[Bathead]

Not to me, it isn't. It's the silent protagonist in games that breaks immersion for me.

[Xaltar81]

I do get that some people feel differently about the voiced/ unvoiced deal but I seriously can't understand why. I just don't get how you could feel that someone voicing your character in any way helps immersion. I am not fishing for an arguement here, just hoping for some informative feeback as to how it works for you guys. For me, I can't stand it, it completely throws off any connection I have with my character. Its like watching a dubbed movie, you see Angelina Jolie on screen, she opens her mouth and out comes something in another language that sounds like its being voiced by a 70 year old overweight man with a high voice. I may understand that language but I am still flipping the channel or changing the audio options back to english. I hope that at least gets our point of view across in a clearer way. I am interested to hear your views aswell though guys so please, let us know how voicing improves the game experience for you.

[infernalserpent]

Voicing improves the game for me because it fleshes out my character and helps me bond with her. A voice provides audio cues to go with the visual ones; I personally need both to understand a character. I see her, I hear her, I get a shape of her in my head, and I have a correspondingly better idea of how I want to play her -- to keep developing that shape over the course of the game, given the options presented to me by the dialogue wheel, NPC interactions, combat, and so on.

When I play RPGs, I want to escape into someone else's life. I want to be someone else, wear someone else's skin (...not in a creepy way), and see her world through her eyes. The more clues I have to who she is, the better I'm able to do that. I can fill in the rest -- oh, man, I can tell you all about the backstories I have going in my head for my Hawkes! -- but I do need the voice. It's a big component for me.

So, speaking only for myself, it comes down to this: I prefer to take a character into myself and make it mine rather than to project myself into a character and make it me.

Modifié par infernalserpent, 13 avril 2011 - 09:57 .

[TEWR]

Bathead wrote...

Not to me, it isn't. It's the silent protagonist in games that breaks immersion for me.

Ditto. I can enjoy games with silent protagonists, but I never feel immersed when I play them. Voiced protagonists help me immerse myself better.

[TEWR]

Sareth Cousland wrote...

I used to like the conversation wheel in mass effect, but in DA2, it didn't really work well. As Greg Zeschuk said in an interview for DA:O, the silent protagonist was a conscious decision, and after having played DA:O, DA2 and ME1&2 I must say that while the wheel and voiced protagonist fit the style of the Mass Effect games, the silent protagonist was better in the DA series. So I hope we will see a return of that quality in DA3, alongside several others.

you see, this is what baffles me. The wheel and voiced protagonists are two separate things, yet people group them together as one thing, especially after the silent protagonist was only seen in one DA game that would've required too many different voices to fully voice the game. Now if the Origins idea returned, I would like to see 3 voices per gender and race to choose from for a fully voiced character, but that's just me. But Dragon Age 2 was based around a singular character, so it's only natural that he/she would've been voiced.

You said the wheel didn't work in DA. That I can understand. I liked the intent icons, but I didn't like paraphrasing even if most of the stuff Hawke said is stuff I would've said. But I think the wheel and voiceovers should be kept separate by people. If DA3 reverted back to the list, but kept a voiced protagonist, I believe that would work. If they kept intent icons or got rid of them, I wouldn't really care. They were certainly helpful, but it wouldn't bug me what happens to them.

Side Note: Gideon Emery provided the voice for the Mystical Human Voice

[We Tigers]

Xaltar81 wrote...

I do get that some people feel differently about the voiced/ unvoiced deal but I seriously can't understand why. I just don't get how you could feel that someone voicing your character in any way helps immersion. I am not fishing for an arguement here, just hoping for some informative feeback as to how it works for you guys. For me, I can't stand it, it completely throws off any connection I have with my character. Its like watching a dubbed movie, you see Angelina Jolie on screen, she opens her mouth and out comes something in another language that sounds like its being voiced by a 70 year old overweight man with a high voice. I may understand that language but I am still flipping the channel or changing the audio options back to english. I hope that at least gets our point of view across in a clearer way. I am interested to hear your views aswell though guys so please, let us know how voicing improves the game experience for you.

Because I'm not caught up in it in being my character.  That's the biggest point of contention here; is the character Hawke, or is it YOUR character?  I don't really care as long as the game around it is good, and I liked DA2 quite a bit, so Hawke worked great for me.  If the presentation is sound, the combat great, and the story pretty good, a voiced PC makes a game less of an "all these people are talking and I'm playing a game by choosing these options" experience into a unified vision of the fictional world.

It seems that a lot of the concerned parties in this thread prefer an anonymous character to a central one, and that's just a fundamental difference in game design.  I have never been a huge P&P type RPG player, so the "this character is me" or "my Hawke would never do that" perspective isn't a high priority for me.  I would argue that, sadly for those who do prefer that, that as time goes on and we get farther and farther from the heyday of D&D and early PC RPGs, the less likely you are to find those qualities in a major game release.

My bottom-right-of-the-conversation-wheel response to all this is "Sorry you didn't like the game, but you can still play DA:O or Baldur's Gate."  It was clear from the outset that DA2 was never going to have a silent protagonist--it was specifically built as the story of one specific character--so I'm not sure what the dissonance is about regarding the actual game.  If you thought DA2 sucked because of the glitches, rushed story, and wave-based trash mobs, okay, fine.  If you thought DA2 sucked because it had a voiced, named, non-anonymous main character, why did you even buy it?  Didn't you expect you weren't going to like it from the outset?

[Sir Caradoc]

I think voiced protagonist leaves less room for our own imagination than silent one. Sure It can make cutscenes feel more cinematic, but from the roleplaying perspective the desired outcome is not so good. Perhaps this is due to my gaming history as I grew up playing classic rpgs where lots of stuff was left into your own imagination, like the pc's voice. An other thing is that I enjoy reading stuff. DAO is a quite text heavy game too.

Like in the classic era rpgs, In DAO each one of us had a very different idea about Warden's voice. and the voice played in our heads. I never found it lacking because the game was immersive.. Dialog wheel on the other hand feels just so gamey. The worst part is that you don't know what the character (i.e me) is going to say.  It feels like i'm not actually the person on screen, i'm just a spectator. Warden had a set backround (I loved the orgin stories), but otherwise he was a clean slate. Hawke on the otherhand is a person whose actions play their set course despite player's choises.

That being said I'm not against voiced pc entirely. Witcher for example is not a lesser rpg.  I just absolutely hate the dialog wheel because I don't know what i'm going to say next. It distracts and annoys me a great deal when I'm supposed to roleplay my character. Maybe i'm just a flawed person in that way, but I can't help it. .

[CARL_DF90]

Sorry op but I completely disagree with you there. It would be like taking a few steps backwards and not forwards. Personally, waiting to see if Bioware can pull off a fully voiced Warden for us to meet up with/ play as in Dragon Age 3. I was never really into silent main characters. As for the dialogue, it definitely made conversations flow better for me. I'll take it over those walls of text any day.

[Dragoonlordz]

Sir Caradoc wrote...

I think voiced protagonist leaves less room for our own imagination than silent one. Sure It can make cutscenes feel more cinematic, but from the roleplaying perspective the desired outcome is not so good. Perhaps this is due to my gaming history as I grew up playing classic rpgs where lots of stuff was left into your own imagination, like the pc's voice. An other thing is that I enjoy reading stuff. DAO is a quite text heavy game too.

Like in the classic era rpgs, In DAO each one of us had a very different idea about Warden's voice. and the voice played in our heads. I never found it lacking because the game was immersive.. Dialog wheel on the other hand feels just so gamey. The worst part is that you don't know what the character (i.e me) is going to say.  It feels like i'm not actually the person on screen, i'm just a spectator. Warden had a set backround (I loved the orgin stories), but otherwise he was a clean slate. Hawke on the otherhand is a person whose actions play their set course despite player's choises.

That being said I'm not against voiced pc entirely. Witcher for example is not a lesser rpg.  I just absolutely hate the dialog wheel because I don't know what i'm going to say next. It distracts and annoys me a great deal when I'm supposed to roleplay my character. Maybe i'm just a flawed person in that way, but I can't help it. .

I agree with you.

DA2 (which was soley based on a fly on the wall model from the offset) with its framed narrative, premade main character with it's own VO's, limited customisation, limited exploration, no choices effect story as in set only in how react to them, as well as premade party members which also have no control over for either customisation or personalities and pure guess work as to what he/she says based on emoticons. If take away the fact even have party members and the dialog sci fi (non fantasy style) dialog wheel and what you get is Darksiders/Dantes.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 14 avril 2011 - 04:53 .

[Dragoonlordz]

CARL_DF90 wrote...

Sorry op but I completely disagree with you there. It would be like taking a few steps backwards and not forwards. Personally, waiting to see if Bioware can pull off a fully voiced Warden for us to meet up with/ play as in Dragon Age 3. I was never really into silent main characters. As for the dialogue, it definitely made conversations flow better for me. I'll take it over those walls of text any day.

If your forever walking forward, guess what happens? You end up walking in front of a bus or off a cliff.

p.s. There was zero 'walls' of text in DAO each conversation only had a few sentences. IF thats a wall to you then a doorstep must be the great wall of china.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 14 avril 2011 - 04:52 .

[CARL_DF90]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

CARL_DF90 wrote...

Sorry op but I completely disagree with you there. It would be like taking a few steps backwards and not forwards. Personally, waiting to see if Bioware can pull off a fully voiced Warden for us to meet up with/ play as in Dragon Age 3. I was never really into silent main characters. As for the dialogue, it definitely made conversations flow better for me. I'll take it over those walls of text any day.

If your forever walking forward, guess what happens? You end up walking in front of a bus or off a cliff.

p.s. There was zero 'walls' of text in DAO each conversation only had a few sentences. IF thats a wall to you then a doorstep must be the great wall of china.

*chuckles* I could only laugh at what you wrote. It was genuinely funny because you didn't catch the subtle sarcasm is some of my sentences. As for the silent character thing, I was serious. Most gamers really do get turned off by that. Me? Although it wasn't a game killer for me when I played DA:O, I was still disappointed that I could not hear this character I had invested so much time and effort into. Bottom line, some people prefer a fully voiced cast of characters and like it or not Bioware has to recognize that. The "walls" of text was a joke that I'm surprised you didn't catch on to but that's not a big deal. Still, loved how your humor shines through.

Modifié par CARL_DF90, 14 avril 2011 - 05:13 .

[TJSolo]

CARL_DF90 wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

CARL_DF90 wrote...

Sorry op but I completely disagree with you there. It would be like taking a few steps backwards and not forwards. Personally, waiting to see if Bioware can pull off a fully voiced Warden for us to meet up with/ play as in Dragon Age 3. I was never really into silent main characters. As for the dialogue, it definitely made conversations flow better for me. I'll take it over those walls of text any day.

If your forever walking forward, guess what happens? You end up walking in front of a bus or off a cliff.

p.s. There was zero 'walls' of text in DAO each conversation only had a few sentences. IF thats a wall to you then a doorstep must be the great wall of china.

*chuckles* I could only laugh at what you wrote. It was genuinely funny because you didn't catch the subtle sarcasm is some of my sentences. As for the silent character thing, I was serious. Most gamers really do get turned off by that. Me? Although it wasn't a game killer for me when I played DA:O, I was still disappointed that I could not hear this character I had invested so much time and effort into. Bottom line, some people prefer a fully voiced cast of characters and like it or not Bioware has to recognize that. The "walls" of text was a joke that I'm surprised you catch on to but that's not a big deal. Still, loved how your humor shines through.

How do you conclude most gamers get turned off by a silent PC? If most gamers only came into games this generation then your conclusions could be right. However if most gamers have ever picked up a Wii, Gameboy, PSP, GameCube, Dreamcast, PSOne, or played any MMO then your conclusion falls flat on it's ear.

Modifié par TJSolo, 14 avril 2011 - 05:15 .

[Dragoonlordz]

CARL_DF90 wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

CARL_DF90 wrote...

Sorry op but I completely disagree with you there. It would be like taking a few steps backwards and not forwards. Personally, waiting to see if Bioware can pull off a fully voiced Warden for us to meet up with/ play as in Dragon Age 3. I was never really into silent main characters. As for the dialogue, it definitely made conversations flow better for me. I'll take it over those walls of text any day.

If your forever walking forward, guess what happens? You end up walking in front of a bus or off a cliff.

p.s. There was zero 'walls' of text in DAO each conversation only had a few sentences. IF thats a wall to you then a doorstep must be the great wall of china.

*chuckles* I could only laugh at what you wrote. It was genuinely funny because you didn't catch the subtle sarcasm is some of my sentences. As for the silent character thing, I was serious. Most gamers really do get turned off by that. Me? Although it wasn't a game killer for me when I played DA:O, I was still disappointed that I could not hear this character I had invested so much time and effort into. Bottom line, some people prefer a fully voiced cast of characters and like it or not Bioware has to recognize that. The "walls" of text was a joke that I'm surprised you catch on to but that's not a big deal. Still, loved how your humor shines through.

Yeh I was poking you with jest, some humour not being too serious. But thing is most of Bioware games have all had non voiced main PC with exception of ME series that springs to mind. They were all highly successful and is what built Bioware to the status has now (sure are other reason rather than just text based dialogue) but it was present in most of their other titles, so if hate it then surely would hate almost all their other games?  

[CARL_DF90]

Heh. Not me hating on it. It's just a sign of the times I suppose. I have spoken to quite a few people about this subject before when I introduce them to some Bioware titles and it is just surprising for me at how many don't care for the silent main character thing. Makes me think that it can't necessarily be an isolated case.

[TEWR]

Sir Caradoc wrote...

Like in the classic era rpgs, In DAO each one of us had a very different idea about Warden's voice. and the voice played in our heads. I never found it lacking because the game was immersive.. Dialog wheel on the other hand feels just so gamey. The worst part is that you don't know what the character (i.e me) is going to say.  It feels like i'm not actually the person on screen, i'm just a spectator. Warden had a set backround (I loved the orgin stories), but otherwise he was a clean slate. Hawke on the otherhand is a person whose actions play their set course despite player's choises.

That being said I'm not against voiced pc entirely. Witcher for example is not a lesser rpg.  I just absolutely hate the dialog wheel because I don't know what i'm going to say next. It distracts and annoys me a great deal when I'm supposed to roleplay my character. Maybe i'm just a flawed person in that way, but I can't help it. .

I keep presenting a point, but I don't think people really notice and acknowledge it. So I'm gonna BOLD, underline, and place in italics  my point:

• In Dragon Age:Origins, as you were creating your character you chose between 6 different voices. As soon as you picked that voice, that was how your Warden sounded to the citizens of Thedas. If it was just one set voice, but your Warden was still silent in every scene, it could rightly be called a game mechanic. But the fact that you choose which voice you want for your Warden made it so that any imagination as to how he sounded ceased to exist anymore. So you may have never heard any of the lines you chose, but the voice you chose in character creation is how he sounded.

I'm not mad or anything, but people keep arguing that the Warden was a silent protagonist and we could imagine how he sounded when he/she never was. We just couldn't hear that voice.

[DA2 is Awsum]

You're really grasping at some ****ing straws there bro. The voice selection was literally just flavor and a sort of interactivity because they corresponded in some way to what you were doing. Even if i were so retarded as to believe what you claim is true, then that still leaves me the ability to add inflection and my own god damn intent. Just those two things alone > VO'd douchebag.

Modifié par DA2 is Awsum, 14 avril 2011 - 06:14 .

[UltiPup]

I dunno. If you aren't creative enough to give Hawke his or her own voice on your own and expect the game to do it for you, then you aren't getting RPGs.

[DA2 is Awsum]

UltiPup wrote...

I dunno. If you aren't creative enough to give Hawke his or her own voice on your own and expect the game to do it for you, then you aren't getting RPGs.

Yea srsly, who cares that we don't even know what is actually being said so you know that may deter some from adding their own voice, even though to do so would be pretty redundant! I guess we should author a mod where we can type in our replies that correspond to the 3 different intent icons! Yea! Oh wait you mean then we would have little to no grasp on the epic story? You mean we'd have no idea wtf was going on? That would actually make this game better, sadly. 

Modifié par DA2 is Awsum, 14 avril 2011 - 06:28 .