I dunno. If you aren't creative enough to give Hawke his or her own voice on your own and expect the game to do it for you, then you aren't getting RPGs.
While I don't particularly care whether the protagonist is voiced or not, I find this statement to be borderline offensive.
Sure, I could pretend that my PC sounds like one thing or another. But that's a pointless exercise. The NPCs will react to what the writer thought the PC was saying, not whatever I thought he sounded like in my head.
It isn't a lack of creativity that keeps me from trying to be creative with my PC's voice in DAO, it's a lack of any purpose in doing so.
I dunno. If you aren't creative enough to give Hawke his or her own voice on your own and expect the game to do it for you, then you aren't getting RPGs.
While I don't particularly care whether the protagonist is voiced or not, I find this statement to be borderline offensive.
Sure, I could pretend that my PC sounds like one thing or another. But that's a pointless exercise. The NPCs will react to what the writer thought the PC was saying, not whatever I thought he sounded like in my head.
It isn't a lack of creativity that keeps me from trying to be creative with my PC's voice in DAO, it's a lack of any purpose in doing so.
That really isn't the point. The point is that a silent protagonist gives players the opportunity to create a voice, a tone, and a personality for the character that's unhindered by restrictions that the game imposes. You know, role playing.
If that is not your cup of tea, fair enough. But others like the freedom it provides.
Once we get more variety in voiced protagonists and when technology advances to the point where other areas such as diagloue trees and branching narratives aren't significantly hindered by a voiced protagonist, then I'm sure more people will be willing to accept it.
I dunno. If you aren't creative enough to give Hawke his or her own voice on your own and expect the game to do it for you, then you aren't getting RPGs.
While I don't particularly care whether the protagonist is voiced or not, I find this statement to be borderline offensive.
Sure, I could pretend that my PC sounds like one thing or another. But that's a pointless exercise. The NPCs will react to what the writer thought the PC was saying, not whatever I thought he sounded like in my head.
It isn't a lack of creativity that keeps me from trying to be creative with my PC's voice in DAO, it's a lack of any purpose in doing so.
i 100% agree
The creativity or "immersion" argument just doesn't really hold water. If someone actually feels that way it doesn't make sense to get your RPG fix from video games. There's nothing wrong with pen and paper. Video game RPGs have always had a trade off when it comes to the player's options, creativity, and immersion. If you really want all of those things a few illusions giving the perception of options or character creation in previous games shouldn't have done the job. If that was the case thats totally fine and either you don't play the games or you've accepted them for what they are long ago and approach each one accordingly. But don't pretend that all of a sudden you can't deal with the developer interfering with your vision of who the character is and taking away your options of what to say or do and letting you truly shape the story and world. That's just ridiculous.
But don't pretend that all of a sudden you can't deal with the developer interfering with your vision of who the character is and taking away your options of what to say or do and letting you truly shape the story and world. That's just ridiculous.
It's these kinds of comments that just bites my ass to no end, and 99% of the time, it takes a great deal to get a rise out of me; congratulations on that 1%, you got that rise. Interfering isn't the correct term or description, misleading the game's premise is, especially on it being an RPG, that made the experience so bad for me. It's the fact that the game was advertised as a sequel to Origins, so I thought, and was I fooled into thinking it would at least follow some its gameplay and style, even if the game had a completely different set of characters and storyline. So, who are you to tell me how I am one of these pretenders and why I should not expect my own experience from a game??? Origins gave that to me and so much more and DA2 having that namesake of a game I loved so much, took nearly all of that away from the options I expect, not what I want. It should have been named something else other
I dunno. If you aren't creative enough to give Hawke his or her own voice on your own and expect the game to do it for you, then you aren't getting RPGs.
While I don't particularly care whether the protagonist is voiced or not, I find this statement to be borderline offensive.
Sure, I could pretend that my PC sounds like one thing or another. But that's a pointless exercise. The NPCs will react to what the writer thought the PC was saying, not whatever I thought he sounded like in my head.
It isn't a lack of creativity that keeps me from trying to be creative with my PC's voice in DAO, it's a lack of any purpose in doing so.
i 100% agree
The creativity or "immersion" argument just doesn't really hold water. If someone actually feels that way it doesn't make sense to get your RPG fix from video games. There's nothing wrong with pen and paper. Video game RPGs have always had a trade off when it comes to the player's options, creativity, and immersion. If you really want all of those things a few illusions giving the perception of options or character creation in previous games shouldn't have done the job. If that was the case thats totally fine and either you don't play the games or you've accepted them for what they are long ago and approach each one accordingly. But don't pretend that all of a sudden you can't deal with the developer interfering with your vision of who the character is and taking away your options of what to say or do and letting you truly shape the story and world. That's just ridiculous.
DA2 takes the approach where the people who appeals to those who like to stare in windows and watch others and just imagine being there, while I prefer to go in and actually be there myself. I am the main character in my life and prefer to be so in games. With RPGs and with a lot of Bioware titles this is also the case and thats why I buy their titles, DA2 is the former not the latter and that is not why I buy titles from Bioware and having another persons voice further distances myself from roleplaying in the DA universe, the role of using the CC to make main character look like me and my own voice while reading sounding like me, while at the same time being in that world roleplaying wise. I effect events based on choice I would make if I was there in those situations as well as interact with companions and NPCs the way I would choose to do so myself if "I" was there. They understood this idea in DAO, Kotor and many others but they did not in DA2. The immersion concept and reality does 'hold water' your just too to realise it.
So...why did you buy DA2? Like I said earlier in the thread, you knew going in that wasn't going to be an option. I understand wanting a game to be one way, but if you have such contempt for "people who stare in windows," why are you subjecting yourself to something you dislike again and again? Speak with your wallet, as that will get heard a lot more than your forum posts.
You want it to be one way...but it's the other way.
Dragoonlordz wrote... I am the main character in my life and prefer to be so in games. With RPGs and with a lot of Bioware titles this is also the case and thats why I buy their titles,
How does that work, exactly? The main character in BG2 isn't you, unless you were raised in Candlekeep by monks.
Your both not alone, quite a vast amount of people on here feel the same including myself. I would even guess that the same could be said for the million+ people who don't come on here but bought it, hated it and sold it again. No way of knowing for sure but the user reviews on many sites would indicate that.
Well, if you count the fact that every second hand store in my area now has at least two copies of DA2 for PC at the same time, while it's still hard to find a copy of DA:O as an indicator, well, then it would seem that there are quite a lot unhappy customers out there...
You're really grasping at some ****ing straws there bro. The voice selection was literally just flavor and a sort of interactivity because they corresponded in some way to what you were doing. Even if i were so retarded as to believe what you claim is true, then that still leaves me the ability to add inflection and my own god damn intent. Just those two things alone > VO'd douchebag.
I'm assuming you were responding to me. If so, really? You had to say something in that way, dismissing what I say as something that only stupid people would believe (which incidentally retard does not mean stupid. It means to delay or slow down)?
All I said was the Warden was never silent and the idea of imagining his/her voice is pointless. I never said you can't imagine how he/she says what they say in the voice you chose, but to say "I want to imagine what voice everything is being said in" is pointless.
You can call it a game mechanic if you want. But the voice you chose is the canon voice for that playthrough, just like the customized appearance is the canon appearance of that playthrough. A person can't say "I want to customize my appearance because that's how he'll always look" and then say the voice is just for "flavor" or is solely there as a "game mechanic". They are both representative of the same thing. Making your own canon playthrough.
And of course, because a character is fully voiced, that automatically makes him a douchebag. I bet if DA3 reverted back to Origins style dialogue, where you had a list of choices for every time your Warden spoke, but he was fully voiced I bet people would be singing a different tune. Origins still had you picking dialogue that had sarcasm, aggressive, and kind tones. You can't say this is untrue, because I give you this as evidence:
When you greet King Cailan you can give a smart-ass response, a diplomatic response, or an aggressive, angry response.
You want a truly silent character? Go play Suikoden IV. The main character there was given no voice at all. You couldn't customize his appearance, and dialogue of his was very limited, but the no voice thing is the very idea of a silent protagonist. There you could imagine how he sounded, how he said things, and whatnot.
Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 avril 2011 - 06:56 .
I'm surprised that is what you have an issue with.
Personally I *much* prefer a voiced PC. And I like Mass Effect 2 style of dialogue overall. But I would like a little more indication of what will be said. Sometimes it ends up being something that I would never have chosen had I known and does serve to break immersion somewhat.
Dragoonlordz wrote... I am the main character in my life and prefer to be so in games. With RPGs and with a lot of Bioware titles this is also the case and thats why I buy their titles,
How does that work, exactly? The main character in BG2 isn't you, unless you were raised in Candlekeep by monks.
It's not a hard concept to grasp, if a game has CC you are able to create your character based on yourself and roleplay as though you are in that world rather than through the eyes of some random other person aka Hawke. Bethesda's titles allow you to do this in Fallout and same applied to Biowares DAO. In DA2 they stopped it by forcing people to play the role of someone else in the sense having a voice breaks the illusion that it's you inside the world of DA because it's akin to looking in the mirror one day and seeing someone else look back at you. In my favorite kind of RPGs (this specific aspect within them) ones with decent CC and silent mains, which you replace what he says in your mind reading out it's done so in my own voice.
Dragoonlordz wrote... I am the main character in my life and prefer to be so in games. With RPGs and with a lot of Bioware titles this is also the case and thats why I buy their titles,
How does that work, exactly? The main character in BG2 isn't you, unless you were raised in Candlekeep by monks.
It's not a hard concept to grasp, if a game has CC you are able to create your character based on yourself and roleplay as though you are in that world rather than through the eyes of some random other person aka Hawke. Bethesda's titles allow you to do this in Fallout and same applied to Biowares DAO.
So you can play someone who looks like you. And if there's no voice you can pretend he sounds like you too. Why not just pretend that your voice sounds like the character rather than pretend that the character sounds like you?
Yes, I'm not taking you seriously. Your character is different from you in all the ways that count. The sound of the voice is trivial.
Edit: by all the ways that count, I mean that your character is always preternaturally gifted, to the point where he can be one of the best in the world at whatever he chooses to try. In games with companions, he's a natural leader. In games with romances, he's attractive to all sorts of women -- and men too, depending on the developer. And in any game whatsoever, he's either lucky or favored by supernatural beings. And in a game where the PC has a specific background or a choice of such, it's nothing like where you come from.
DA2 is no less immersive than DA:O. If any player has a problem with the immersion level then that's his own psychological issue.The only concession that they should make in DA3 to the whiners should be a "no voice" toggle that causes Hawke's voice to not play when you select a dialog choice.
I wouldn't mind so much the fact that Hawke is voice acted if you didn't have to sacrifice the depth of choice that was in Origins.
Having a voiced Hawke obviously limited the variation of character, race, make of your protagonist.
It's simple economics. The more you pour your budget into one aspect of the game, the less you are able to expand on the rest of the experience.
With a voiced Hawke you now are limited as to when and where you can talk to your companions or anyone else in Dragon Age 2. You also naturally have fewer choices of things to say, what context you say them and also fewer branches where you can take a conversation. It makes perfect sense because the more options of conversation you include, the more money you have to spend to get it all voiced by actors.
It makes perfect sense why you can only play either a male or female human. You'd have to have alternate voices and accents for other races of both sexes. You'd have to have completely alternate interactions due to the different races and classes of these extra possible protagonists.
I really rather would have a non-voiced protagonist if it meant that I had more choice and variation in the plot.
What's the point in so-called innovation if you have to cut out solid content to implement it? The conversation wheel is a perfect example of this. So what if you can hear Hawke speak, when it means that he or she says less about themself? I still don't really know who Hawke is. Voiced or not.
If you want to fix your reputation after the complete debacle of DA2!
I want to know exactly what I'm telling my character to say, not just a summary (which gives the wrong impression often).
I don't want my PC to have a voice because it will never sound exactly how my character does in my mind and makes the character less my own.
All the non-interactive cinematics destroy immersion because I'm no longer controlling my character.
Fix these problems, i.e. make DA3 like DA:O but without a dumb romance character who only likes you if you're cartoonishly evil like Morrigan was, and you can start making good games again. Don't fix these problems and you will fail sooner rather than later!
I agree! Not that I am certain they will make a DA3 after this disaster, but if they do, I agree.
ME2 sold less than DA:O. DA2 looks to sell even less than ME2. I ~think~ ME sold more than ME2 as well, but I am not certain about that. If these numbers are not a serious wake-up call for Bioware, then it is indeed sooner than later.
I think the dialogue wheel worked most of the time but there were a few time when i was talking to my compansions and i ended up saying something rude when i didnt think i was going to.
I wouldn't mind so much the fact that Hawke is voice acted if you didn't have to sacrifice the depth of choice that was in Origins. Having a voiced Hawke obviously limited the variation of character, race, make of your protagonist. It's simple economics. The more you pour your budget into one aspect of the game, the less you are able to expand on the rest of the experience. With a voiced Hawke you now are limited as to when and where you can talk to your companions or anyone else in Dragon Age 2. You also naturally have fewer choices of things to say, what context you say them and also fewer branches where you can take a conversation. It makes perfect sense because the more options of conversation you include, the more money you have to spend to get it all voiced by actors. It makes perfect sense why you can only play either a male or female human. You'd have to have alternate voices and accents for other races of both sexes. You'd have to have completely alternate interactions due to the different races and classes of these extra possible protagonists.
I really rather would have a non-voiced protagonist if it meant that I had more choice and variation in the plot. What's the point in so-called innovation if you have to cut out solid content to implement it? The conversation wheel is a perfect example of this. So what if you can hear Hawke speak, when it means that he or she says less about themself? I still don't really know who Hawke is. Voiced or not.
I agree with you as far as the limited variation of the character's race but I really feel that had more to do with the actual story than a limitation of using a voice actor.
While it's common for different races to have different accents, it wasn't necessarily always the case. They could have easily given you the option of different races and still used a male and female voice actor to voice all of them.
Having a silent protagonist just means they didn't pay a voice actor to do the job. Maybe in a different game where there are real differences in the voices that would be a problem but that isn't an excuse Bioware can use.
As has been stated before (not sure if in this thread, or in one of the histrionic "kill Laidlaw rrrrr" threads), the real reasons you're a human in DA2 are that dwarves can't use magic and elves are second-class citizens in Kirkwall. Now, you might say that the game could have a totally different story without a voiced protagonist, but the Champion/templars/mages story as presented doesn't work without a human at its center.
(Of course, I'm sure some would say "but the story sucked and didn't work anyway!", but that's an entirely different issue.)
Dragoonlordz wrote... I am the main character in my life and prefer to be so in games. With RPGs and with a lot of Bioware titles this is also the case and thats why I buy their titles,
How does that work, exactly? The main character in BG2 isn't you, unless you were raised in Candlekeep by monks.
It's not a hard concept to grasp, if a game has CC you are able to create your character based on yourself and roleplay as though you are in that world rather than through the eyes of some random other person aka Hawke. Bethesda's titles allow you to do this in Fallout and same applied to Biowares DAO.
So you can play someone who looks like you. And if there's no voice you can pretend he sounds like you too. Why not just pretend that your voice sounds like the character rather than pretend that the character sounds like you?
I already answered that which you decided not to quote because it makes you asking it again look incompetent if you show it was already answered. "In the sense having a voice breaks the illusion that it's you inside the world of DA because it's akin to looking in the mirror one day and seeing someone else look back at you."
Seems to me your one of those people who would be just as happy removing the CC from Biowares games you play because your already in a state of mind your playing someone else so why bother changing the appearence at all as opposed to how I play Bioware titles like they have made in the past.
Yes, I'm not taking you seriously. Your character is different from you in all the ways that count. The sound of the voice is trivial.
Thank god your not part of the Bioware Dev team, if they turned around to the fans and said "I'm not taking you seriously..." Oh, wait sorry Mike already seems to have done that... But even so I have more respect for them because they do read what people say here and are looking to improve things such as altering the dialogue wheel. Plain to see is you cannot get your head around the concept or role playing and dismiss how others who do so. In this thread you have constantly belittled other peoples opinion on how they play, if you like to play one way and we like to play another fine but to keep grabbing your pitchfork and torch everytime someone says they like to play a different way, then noone will have respect for you.
The dialogue wheel was a source of great confusion to me. Usually when i see icons like that I assume they are meant to be intuitive so I went with my feelings of what those icons were supposed to represent.
Reading the instructions later was a great source of amusement because I would never have guessed most of the icons.
My first impression went something like:
Green - Good
Red - Evil
Middle choice - Jolly
Of course I quickly realized it was a bit more complex than that, and a lot more confusing.
I'll just recap the right solution from the manual:
Blue Angel: Helpful/Nice
Green Olivebranch?: Agreeable/Tactful
Purple Comedy: Wry/Humorous/Witty
Purple Diamond: Charming
Red Fist: Agressive
Red Hammer: Direct/Rude
Red Swords: An action of starting a fight or direct violence
Head in profile: Let companion do the talking
Heart: Romance
Broken Heart: Break Romance.
The last 3 seemed pretty obvious from the context and the text in the wheel.
I never managed to make a distinction between the blue and green options of olive branch and angel. They all seemed like nice/pacifist options to me.
The purple comedy option was straightforward, in practice the conversational effect seemed a lot more like a rude option. I probably expected something more along the lines of diplomacy through humor. Sort of similar to Allistairs habit of avoiding serious topics by joking about it.
Purple Diamond was a source of great confusion. At first I thought it was the option for asking for more payment. Then I thought maybe it meant Hardened/Impenetrable sort of like "We already dismissed those claims". I would never have guessed it meant charming.
The red options were kind of a blur as well. Except I was convinced that the Judge's Hammer would mean judgemental. "How dare you be a Blood Mage, don't you know devil worshipping is evil?". It simply meant direct, who would have guessed.
Clenched Fist and Crossed Sword is the same symbol to me. It simply means agression. I probably made the assumption that an aggressive response might scare weak conversationalist and cause strong conversationalist to attack.
No way they'll do something like record all of Hawke's dialogue in multiple voices. Silent protagonist gets my vote.
they don't have to, many games, mostly japanese but I think also Sims 3 (might be wrong on that) allow the modification of the character voice (pitch and such), so yes, access to different voices should be possible without more than one male and female dialogue recording
Dragoonlordz wrote... I am the main character in my life and prefer to be so in games. With RPGs and with a lot of Bioware titles this is also the case and thats why I buy their titles,
How does that work, exactly? The main character in BG2 isn't you, unless you were raised in Candlekeep by monks.
Because many gamers mistake self-insertion for actual roleplaying, which is nothing more than improvisational method acting, and in terms of a cRPG, it's not even -that-.
Just look at the mary-sues in fanfic to see the evidence of shameless self-insertion..
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