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Get rid of the dialogue wheel, the voiced PC, and the non-interactive cinematics


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#151
A Crusty Knight Of Colour

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mdugger12 wrote...

Well don't throw out the wheel. On the console I found it way easier to use than the lines of dialogue. Speaking optional, I'm with you.

lol Oh and what is the opposite of button mashing awesomeness?


Well, if there's the time to implement it, why not have both the wheel and voiced protagonist optional.

:P

I can only speak about the demo since I haven't played the retail game, but with the wheel not having the space to show you the full dialogue text, I felt a disconnect between what I wanted to say and what actually was said. I could live with the wheel if it displays full dialogue. But I assume the purpose of it was so that it didn't have to.

Laidlaw is wrong in this regard, text is an excellent way to convey meaning and intent and I believe any suggestions otherwise is an excuse for lazy writing. Not saying that Dragon Age 2 has lazy writing in particular, but it's an excuse for it in future.

For example, the infamous "I want to be a dragon" line. I was expecting something really snarky and sarcastic. All I got was "Sounds like a neat trick. Can you show me how to do it?" or some such. Wasn't expecting that.

Any time where there is a disconnect between what you want your character to say and what your character actually says really just enforces the disconnect between player and game. Which is a big no no in an RPG where the word of the day is immersion.

#152
Tommy6860

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Kane-Corr wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

Maverick827 wrote...

1000questions wrote...

WHY ARE YOU PLAYING A RPG GAME ? why not action/adventure genre ?

The answer is that action/adventure games do not allow me to direct a character of my own creation.


And DA2, for the most part, does not allow this either.




Uhh. Actually it does. Your quarrel is with the movement of the Plot/Story etc. You actually ARE given control of your character...it's just the situations you find yourself in that you may not agree with.

Even if you didn't like the game, if you cannot realize this...then I just don't know what to say.Image IPB


You don't have to say anything, but you're expressing semantics now, when you all but say, what I said so succinctly. An RPG has to do with the story, the direction of your character (not physical movement or character upgrades), and for the most part, you cannot control that, while also having near zero control over you companion's customizations and dialogue. My laconic reply from before stands.

Modifié par Tommy6860, 08 avril 2011 - 12:21 .


#153
Nassegris

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Well, a tree, something, just some way to add more immersion. The three choices are not enough variety, and the very vague symbol makes for some really odd things being said. There’s no consistency in the ‘purple’ choice for instance, sometimes it’s sarcastic, sometimes just silly and sometimes generally friendly.

So many personality types don’t fit into any of the choices and it makes it really hard to commit, for me, to the character as a whole. For instance, if I want my character to be a calm, strong leader, am I then left with the vicious choices of the red alternative, where almost everything seems spoken from the heart of a violent and dominant person, or the super-duper peace-loving green choices that obviously come from someone very submissive. If I want the character’s voice to be consistent throughout the game I’m almost forced to always make the choices of one particular colour, in which case I might as well just pick a personality at the start of the game and have no influence over any conversation at all, turning all discussions into cut-scenes.

At this point, if I fluctuate between red and purple, for instance, the character comes off as completely nutty, split-personality type of girl because the acting seems so different on the different choices that it doesn’t appear the same person would say those things, so what’s the point of having choices at all except at a single point at the start? With more choices, I could for instance have a character who is very kind but in any one situation she might be good/peaceful good/joking good/angry or alternatively, it might be a character that is neutral and sort of deceitful (greedy, maybe?) and in a specific conversation I could choose between different variations of how that would come across. A joking replying varies very much if it’s a sweet person making the joke or if it’s Jack the Ripper trying to be funny.

Ugh. Maybe choose a particular personality type that comes with a voice at the start, then all the replies you choose from then on are coloured by that initial choice? It’s just not enough that peaceful/joking/aggressive get to decide EVERY interaction across the board, there’s no feel for who she is with that being the only colour. If I get to choose that my character is generally a nice person at the start, then in every conversation I can make the choices between say, being peaceful/sweet, saying something funny, being firm/aggressive, etc, then it's another matter altogether because these would still be within the confines of the nice character, and it'd be a good-angry, not a pissed-off-sailor kind of angry like it often is in DA2..

But then suddenly I’m guessing that would cost too much and too much voice acting, sigh. I don’t know. I just felt my character was a blank slate from the start of the game to the end.

Modifié par Nassegris, 08 avril 2011 - 12:28 .


#154
edeheusch

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Eurypterid wrote...

I don't mind the protagonist being voiced. But I REALLY want to know what he/she is going to say when I click on my choice of response. Being jarred right out of the roleplay due to the surprise of "WTH is coming out of your mouth? I didn't want you to say THAT" is annoying as hell.

I'm not sure why the dialog wheel is necessary with the voiced protagonist. Everything stops and waits for your choice of response anyway, so why not do it in list format like in DA:O, allowing the player to actually read what's going to be said, and having the character actually say what the player chose? It's entirely possible there's a technical limitation preventing this type of format, but I'd much rather have it that way if possible than the dialog-wheel-of-mystery-responses in the game at present.

Same for me!
However, if I don't mind the protagonist being voiced, it is a huge problem for me if, to have a voiced protagonist, we cannot chose anymore the race of our characters!

Modifié par edeheusch, 08 avril 2011 - 12:23 .


#155
Tommy6860

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Sabriana wrote...

I felt that my choices were taken away.

Hawke is not *my* character, not like my Warden was (and still is). I like reading the lines that my character is actually going to say. I hate being shocked at what comes out of her mouth, most often dialogue that *my* character would never say. I can't count the times I was actually angry because the silly wheel jarred me right out of game-play.

If I want to watch a movie, I go watch one.
If I want to play an action game, I pick one to play
If I want to play a FPS, I go play one

I have a pre-set idea about what an RPG should be. To me, an RPG is a game where I choose what role my character inhabits. I want to agonize over outfitting my companions. I want to talk to them whenever I feel my character should. I want to give my character the personality *I* envision for her. I want her to say what I think is within her personality, please, for heaven's sake, don't surprise me. I don't want to be surprised. This is my character, I build her up, nurtured her, developed her, so I know exactly how she would react and what she will say.

Hawke is not my character, I just get to play a BioWare character. The Warden was my character. Good grief, even my Oblivion character feels more like my creation than Hawke does. How sad is that? The silly-wheel to *me* was like "I pressed a button, and something very silly happened."

So yes, OP. I agree with your post.


Yep, and your last paragraph speaks volumes when refernencing Laidlaw's remark, "You push a button, and something awesome happens". I wonder if that quote was a typo when released to the press and was actually stated as "awful".  Anyway, I cannot count how many times I cringed at the replies my PC gave when I thought/expected a totally different answer from the choice I made. I felt like I was thrown under the dialogue "wheel"  (every pun intended)!! 

:devil::o

Modifié par Tommy6860, 08 avril 2011 - 12:31 .


#156
Galad22

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Why are some of you so keen on turning DA into similar experience than ME.
Me has your voiced character and stuff, can't they stay there, this way those who want mute character and more complex conversations get what they want with DA, and those who want voice get what they want in ME.

This way everyone is happy (happier at least).

#157
F-C

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i disagree with the OP.

i really dont have the desire to go into detail, but i pretty much disagree on every point.

also, morrigan isnt evil.

#158
Warheadz

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Galad22 wrote...

Why are some of you so keen on turning DA into similar experience than ME.
Me has your voiced character and stuff, can't they stay there, this way those who want mute character and more complex conversations get what they want with DA, and those who want voice get what they want in ME.

This way everyone is happy (happier at least).


I sort of agree. Mass Effect should strive to be the cinematic experience and Dragon Age should strive to be the epic roleplaying experience.

Edit: Oh and a good post, OP.

Modifié par Warheadz, 08 avril 2011 - 01:14 .


#159
Rykoth

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I won't buy DA3 if we have a mute PC again.

#160
F-C

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i honestly dont get some of you and your issue with the "wheel" though, i must say.


so DAO was so much better picking pre-selected dialogue from a list, instead of pre-selected dialogue around a wheel?

so the format of the responses on your screen is really that big of a deal to you?

not to be a dick... but get a grip.

#161
Guest_Alistairlover94_*

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Is BioWare the George Lucas of video game developers?

#162
Warheadz

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Alistairlover94 wrote...

Is BioWare the George Lucas of video game developers?


Isn't that George Lucas and Steven Spielberg?

And if they keep this going, then yes.

Image IPB

Modifié par Warheadz, 08 avril 2011 - 01:19 .


#163
Guest_Alistairlover94_*

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Warheadz wrote...

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Is BioWare the George Lucas of video game developers?


Isn't that George Lucs and Steven Spielberg?

And if they keep this going, then yes.


I thought soImage IPB

*Re-installs KOTOR*

#164
jsachun

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Eurypterid wrote...

I don't mind the protagonist being voiced. But I REALLY want to know what he/she is going to say when I click on my choice of response. Being jarred right out of the roleplay due to the surprise of "WTH is coming out of your mouth? I didn't want you to say THAT" is annoying as hell.

I'm not sure why the dialog wheel is necessary with the voiced protagonist. Everything stops and waits for your choice of response anyway, so why not do it in list format like in DA:O, allowing the player to actually read what's going to be said, and having the character actually say what the player chose? It's entirely possible there's a technical limitation preventing this type of format, but I'd much rather have it that way if possible than the dialog-wheel-of-mystery-responses in the game at present.


Cause it's a waste of game time, once you've heard  them all. I agree totally with the OP. Why ruin the immersion by leaving the player's imagination out of the game? All we all empathising so suddenly. That is what I think is so crap about today's cinema. Lack of sympathy and full of empathy.

Modifié par jsachun, 08 avril 2011 - 01:26 .


#165
Guest_Alistairlover94_*

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Do you think Hawke will hide in a fridge during another one of Anders' nuclear bombs in Dragon Effect 3?

#166
Galad22

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F-C wrote...

i honestly dont get some of you and your issue with the "wheel" though, i must say.


so DAO was so much better picking pre-selected dialogue from a list, instead of pre-selected dialogue around a wheel?

so the format of the responses on your screen is really that big of a deal to you?

not to be a dick... but get a grip.


Because you are not allowed to say what you want to say, you choose something from the wheel, and your character says some random crap not related to what you wanted to say at all.

It is not fun.

#167
edeheusch

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F-C wrote...

i honestly dont get some of you and your issue with the "wheel" though, i must say.


so DAO was so much better picking pre-selected dialogue from a list, instead of pre-selected dialogue around a wheel?

so the format of the responses on your screen is really that big of a deal to you?

not to be a dick... but get a grip.

I think that what most people complain about is not the format but the fact that the wheel was associated with paraphrasing (and it would be hard to put the complete answers in a wheel).
In addition the system was used to hide a lack of choice, you can often agree friendly or aggressively but you cannot disagree.

#168
Scimal

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...
The capabilities were inevitable.  their use was never mandatory.

You can't just ignore one design choice because its convenient to do so.  One design choice drives another.  If having the detailed rendering creates a problem, the ideal solution is to eliminate the detailed rendering.  Creating a new problem to mask the old one just makes things worse.


If it's only a problem to 20% of the consumerbase, with the rest seeing it as advancement or indifferent, it's not a problem to BioWare.

The desired outcome isn't reelvant.  What matters is the desired expression.  If I'm controlling the character, I want him to say things that suit him.  Whether those things produce the outcome he wants (after all, it's his preferences that matter, not mine) should be decided by the game, not by me.


How odd. So even if the outcomes were all the same, regardless of dialogue choice, as long as the dialogue choice is fully elucidated, you're fine? Curious.

I insist that the previous games implied no tone.

I don't really want to pull out my "implication doesn't exist" essay.


Well, that's a good thing. You're wrong on both counts to me, so I wouldn't read them.

The DA2 system has nothing at all to do with the basics of interpersonal communication.  The old system mimicked interpersonal communication brilliantly.


Except intonation of the delivered lines and usually facial expressions. The latter forms an entire core of non-verbal communication, and the former holds more weight than the words themselves, depending on the society you're in.

If the consumers want to roleplay a character, then they want the old system.


I think the consumers have already spoken. If the current method weren't favored, the old method would be outselling it.

It's the expectations of the investors that have changed.  15 years ago, games were highly profitable selling 200,000 copies.


Doesn't invalidate my point. Expectations have still changed, and the companies and technology must change to accomodate. You just happen to prefer the old system. BW may lose you because of it, but they will gain more in return.

Just look at the most notorious aspects of DA2 - it's not the VO, it's not the dialogue wheel, they're the repeated environments and the meandering story. If VO (or lack thereof) was important to BW's target audience, there would be just as much an outcry about it as there was when ME1 was released (which has since become one of the best Sci-Fi RPGs on many a list).

How many times did you play the game?  Naturally if you play a character that BioWare foresaw then the cutscenes will work.  But if you play repeatedly with the specific intent of playing significantly different characters, the game is guaranteed to fail.


The game has always failed like that. It doesn't matter which one you're talking about, there are restrictions due to budget and time. You couldn't be homosexual in Baldur's Gate, you couldn't play a Tiefling in NWN, your dialogue choices were always limited to what the authors chose - regardless of the game.

As technology improves, it will accomodate (as best it can) the desires of the user. When A.I.-like programs are developed that can simulate complex situations on the fly, I'll be more than happy to play it and do something drastically different than the vanilla story.

Until then, if you're trying to say that DA2 is a bad RPG because its scope is limited by the imagination of the team working on it, I don't know what to tell you but - Yeah, that's how it works for every game ever made until it's modded by the community.

The characters and story hit my character emotionally.  Playing my character invests me intellectually.  That's all an RPG can ever do, and that's all I want from it.  But if I'm not controlling the character, then I have no idea how he's reacting to the characters and story.


You have my sympathies.

I despise action combat.  Having player reflexes determine in-game outcomes is antithetical to the RPG.  Under no circumstances is that acceptable (one of many reasons I cannot stand ME2).  But I take your point.  For that experience, I can play Alpha Centauri (which is a brilliant game, and I replay it fairly often).


Good luck.

#169
F-C

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Galad22 wrote...

F-C wrote...

i honestly dont get some of you and your issue with the "wheel" though, i must say.


so DAO was so much better picking pre-selected dialogue from a list, instead of pre-selected dialogue around a wheel?

so the format of the responses on your screen is really that big of a deal to you?

not to be a dick... but get a grip.


Because you are not allowed to say what you want to say, you choose something from the wheel, and your character says some random crap not related to what you wanted to say at all.

It is not fun.



and how exactly is that different than in DAO?

in DAO you had to choose an option from a pre-made list, you did not get to input your own dialogue.

i also know that i had to reload conversations countless times in DAO because the response it gave on the list did not come out the way i thought it would.

i think you need to stop and think about it for a second.


this is a computer game, not a pen and paper game with your buddies.

no matter what they do, you will always be forced to choose from a pre-made list, as home computers and consoles are not to the point of having artificial intelligence.. at least yet.

#170
A Crusty Knight Of Colour

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F-C wrote...

Galad22 wrote...

F-C wrote...

i honestly dont get some of you and your issue with the "wheel" though, i must say.


so DAO was so much better picking pre-selected dialogue from a list, instead of pre-selected dialogue around a wheel?

so the format of the responses on your screen is really that big of a deal to you?

not to be a dick... but get a grip.


Because you are not allowed to say what you want to say, you choose something from the wheel, and your character says some random crap not related to what you wanted to say at all.

It is not fun.



and how exactly is that different than in DAO?


Because you know exactly what your character says.

Rest of the post is irrelevant. Of course it's a game with pre-made lines. But at least you choose them and you know them.

Despite the emoticons and wheel, there is often a disconnect between what you wanted to say and what Hawke ends up saying. This is only exasperated by the voice (especially Male Hawke) who may or may not deliver the dialogue in the tone you were intending.

The direction of the conversation may not go as planned, but the words your character say, does.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 08 avril 2011 - 01:38 .


#171
Rockpopple

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You know.... your PC had a voice in DA:O.

Try to remember the game that you're sanctifying before you, you know... sanctify it..

#172
JabberJaww

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I rarely found a dialog choice in DA:O (or any other RPG of that type) any where near what I would want my character to say.

The choices always ranged from the ridiculously angelic, to the ridiculously evil.

So whether or not the main is fully voiced with the dialog wheel, or the actually dialog being chosen.. we are given the choices the game developers want us to have. So you take away the fully voiced Hawke and replace it with a silent Hawke but with the EXACT same dialog lines to choose rather than hear him say them would make the game better?

#173
Xewaka

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JabberJaww wrote...
I rarely found a dialog choice in DA:O (or any other RPG of that type) any where near what I would want my character to say.
The choices always ranged from the ridiculously angelic, to the ridiculously evil.
So whether or not the main is fully voiced with the dialog wheel, or the actually dialog being chosen.. we are given the choices the game developers want us to have. So you take away the fully voiced Hawke and replace it with a silent Hawke but with the EXACT same dialog lines to choose rather than hear him say them would make the game better?

Yes, it would, because we'd know what we are choosing before choosing it.

#174
Aradace

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I find it humorous that the OP thinks they'll even consider going back to a voiceless PC for DA3. Also a bit naive.

#175
Eurypterid

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JabberJaww wrote...

I rarely found a dialog choice in DA:O (or any other RPG of that type) any where near what I would want my character to say.

The choices always ranged from the ridiculously angelic, to the ridiculously evil.

So whether or not the main is fully voiced with the dialog wheel, or the actually dialog being chosen.. we are given the choices the game developers want us to have. So you take away the fully voiced Hawke and replace it with a silent Hawke but with the EXACT same dialog lines to choose rather than hear him say them would make the game better?


You're missing the point the same way F-C is. The problem isn't the fact that you can only choose what the developers write into the game. That's fine. The issue is that with the dialog wheel you don't know what you're choosing. You make a choice and many times you end up going "What? That's not what I understood Hawke would say"