996 réponses à ce sujet

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

The dialog options ranging from angelic to puppy eating is really a Bioware writing thing. It's been noticeable to me since KotOR. Other games and other companies don't always suffer from this.

Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines, Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer and the obvious Planescape: Torment are some examples. More recently (though to a lesser degree than the above), Fallout: New Vegas.

I actually like the VtMB way of handling dialog. It accentuates the tone by changing the color and font of the options your character is given. I particularly like the Malkaivian dialog and how that was handled.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 08 avril 2011 - 02:19 .

[LyndseyCousland]

This is madness!

[JabberJaww]

Xewaka wrote...

JabberJaww wrote...
I rarely found a dialog choice in DA:O (or any other RPG of that type) any where near what I would want my character to say.
The choices always ranged from the ridiculously angelic, to the ridiculously evil.
So whether or not the main is fully voiced with the dialog wheel, or the actually dialog being chosen.. we are given the choices the game developers want us to have. So you take away the fully voiced Hawke and replace it with a silent Hawke but with the EXACT same dialog lines to choose rather than hear him say them would make the game better?

Yes, it would, because we'd know what we are choosing before choosing it.

Maybe for you, but not for me... WOW, different opinions

Going in, you kind of know how you are going to play. I usually play as a good character, so i will usually pick the "good" choice. Whether i can read it or not, I will pick the good one.. next play through i will play "evil: so jump right to the evil choice. I mean all this is nit picking. I like both systems. If they go with the dialog choices in DA3 I will be fine with it... but for me, the voice hasn't ruined the game.... 

[JabberJaww]

mrcrusty wrote...

The dialog options ranging from angelic to puppy eating is really a Bioware writing thing. It's been noticeable to me since KotOR. Other games and other companies don't always suffer from this.

Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines, Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer and the obvious Planescape: Torment are some examples. More recently (though to a lesser degree than the above), Fallout: New Vegas.

Exactly... most of the read dialog options are so extreme anyway. 

[JabberJaww]

Eurypterid wrote...

JabberJaww wrote...

I rarely found a dialog choice in DA:O (or any other RPG of that type) any where near what I would want my character to say.

The choices always ranged from the ridiculously angelic, to the ridiculously evil.

So whether or not the main is fully voiced with the dialog wheel, or the actually dialog being chosen.. we are given the choices the game developers want us to have. So you take away the fully voiced Hawke and replace it with a silent Hawke but with the EXACT same dialog lines to choose rather than hear him say them would make the game better?

You're missing the point the same way F-C is. The problem isn't the fact that you can only choose what the developers write into the game. That's fine. The issue is that with the dialog wheel you don't know what you're choosing. You make a choice and many times you end up going "What? That's not what I understood Hawke would say"

I like the dialog wheel, I get a laugh out of what is said quite a bit. 

I also like the traditional dialog choices. 

My point is whether or not I have to read and choose or simply choose an option on the wheel, I know going in which way I am going to play. Good or evil. So reading the choices or hearing them doesn't change my choice. Its how I want my character to play and who I want to be friends or rivals with. 

[Aradace]

It's fine to "want" your "voicelss" PC back. That's well and good. Kinda like I want a decent face generator for ME. But the reality is, the liklihood of either one of us getting what we "want" is slim to none. Someone else said in another thread and I kinda agree with it that they've gone the route of a voiced PC because they are setting it up to be a "Shepard'esque" type "hero".

Im not saying it's wrong to want it back, what Im saying is that the reality that you'll actually get it, is pretty close to 0

[Stegoceras]

JabberJaww wrote...

I rarely found a dialog choice in DA:O (or any other RPG of that type) any where near what I would want my character to say.

The choices always ranged from the ridiculously angelic, to the ridiculously evil.

So whether or not the main is fully voiced with the dialog wheel, or the actually dialog being chosen.. we are given the choices the game developers want us to have. So you take away the fully voiced Hawke and replace it with a silent Hawke but with the EXACT same dialog lines to choose rather than hear him say them would make the game better?

Brilliant comment, the way I read it you say that you can choose any
line from the range spanning good to evil. Which I think leaves little
out of the picture. Unless you want to say a line that makes no sense
and is not related to the conversation.

Of course it's not your words and occassionaly none of the words describe your feeling but I think what you stated here made no sense at all.

[slimgrin]

On PC, there's no advantage to the wheel.

With Dragon Age, there are hotkeys for the dialog options, and it's welcome respite from constantly clicking. No such luxury with either Mass Effect game.

[Xewaka]

JabberJaww wrote...
Maybe for you, but not for me... WOW, different opinions
Going in, you kind of know how you are going to play. I usually play as a good character, so i will usually pick the "good" choice. Whether i can read it or not, I will pick the good one.. next play through i will play "evil: so jump right to the evil choice. I mean all this is nit picking. I like both systems. If they go with the dialog choices in DA3 I will be fine with it... but for me, the voice hasn't ruined the game....

How do you know the "good" quote is actually what your character would say if you can't know what your character will say before saying it?
That is why the paraphrase fails and full line doesn't. It has little to do with the voice/non-voice protagonist.

Modifié par Xewaka, 08 avril 2011 - 02:35 .

[sonsonthebia07]

I prefer the dialogue wheel to the previous system in origins, and I also prefer the voiced PC significantly over a non-voiced one unless everyone in the game is non-voiced.

I wouldn't mind whatever system they went with though. I think the dialogue wheel could be more explicative over what your character is about to say.

[ItsToofy]

Yeah, i was almost afraid I was going to click a button that sais "Thanks" and Hawke may bust out with "Thanks, handsome, lets get together sometime", not saying I have a problem with a gay hawke, it's just that that's not how I was playing Hawke, and I don't want to be surprised at what I hear, I'd rather know ahead of time what my character will be saying and what his motivation is...you know, like in an actual script, except having the choice of which line I get to take.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

JabberJaww wrote...

Eurypterid wrote...

JabberJaww wrote...

I rarely found a dialog choice in DA:O (or any other RPG of that type) any where near what I would want my character to say.

The choices always ranged from the ridiculously angelic, to the ridiculously evil.

So whether or not the main is fully voiced with the dialog wheel, or the actually dialog being chosen.. we are given the choices the game developers want us to have. So you take away the fully voiced Hawke and replace it with a silent Hawke but with the EXACT same dialog lines to choose rather than hear him say them would make the game better?

You're missing the point the same way F-C is. The problem isn't the fact that you can only choose what the developers write into the game. That's fine. The issue is that with the dialog wheel you don't know what you're choosing. You make a choice and many times you end up going "What? That's not what I understood Hawke would say"

I like the dialog wheel, I get a laugh out of what is said quite a bit. 

I also like the traditional dialog choices. 

My point is whether or not I have to read and choose or simply choose an option on the wheel, I know going in which way I am going to play. Good or evil. So reading the choices or hearing them doesn't change my choice. Its how I want my character to play and who I want to be friends or rivals with. 

I understand that Bioware games don't always cater to much bigger and larger archtypes and pathways, but why limit yourself to the good/evil paradigm?

That's less of playing a role, it's more like playing a game. I want to complete the game with max good/bad points. It's not a bad thing, but again, why limit yourself to such extremes?

Now, this isn't aimed at any game in particular, but a well written game will not always force the player to act in such a binary manner. It rewards players for crafting a personality and sticking to that personality in making choices consistent with the personality, or even changing personality as the consequences of the choices become apparent. Okay, I can't name any concrete examples, but it's a little dream of mine.



One of the eloquent conflicts that Dragon Age 2 brings up (though poorly executed) was the paradigm of Mage v Templar, where there isn't a clear distinction between good v evil. There is only two sides, both of which have their mix of good, bad and inbetweeners. How do you make the decision which one to side with (again, DA 2 flaw because it doesn't matter)?

The simple good/evil paradigm is irrelevant. These are human organisations with their own motivations and goals. Most of which, are good at the core, but are corrupted by the evil actions that make it possible. How will you decide then?

The answer would be something along the lines of you deciding based upon the choices your character has made since the beginning, combined with the personality you crafted for the character. That's ideally what roleplaying gets you. It's not going to happen with everyone, but if you are immersed in the game, invested in your character and their adventures, then that's how you will look at things.

By adding the wheel, making dialog non specific, making the protagonist voiced, it takes away the choice from the player in three important aspects that help to build that connection with the character. It also means that the character can't be explored with the same depth otherwise, because part of the character is pre-conceived and has a personality of it's own.

This is fine with an interactive story, or an interactive movie, or a JRPG. But for a cRPG? Well, it depends on the execution. If there is enough narrative and roleplaying depth, then it's forgivable. Games like Witcher and PS:T fall under this category. Similarly so the game is so far removed from being a traditional cRPG that it's no longer an issue. The Mass Effect games fall under this category.

As far as I can see however, Dragon Age 2 falls under neither.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 08 avril 2011 - 02:43 .

[JabberJaww]

Stegoceras wrote...

JabberJaww wrote...

I rarely found a dialog choice in DA:O (or any other RPG of that type) any where near what I would want my character to say.

The choices always ranged from the ridiculously angelic, to the ridiculously evil.

So whether or not the main is fully voiced with the dialog wheel, or the actually dialog being chosen.. we are given the choices the game developers want us to have. So you take away the fully voiced Hawke and replace it with a silent Hawke but with the EXACT same dialog lines to choose rather than hear him say them would make the game better?

Brilliant comment, the way I read it you say that you can choose any
line from the range spanning good to evil. Which I think leaves little
out of the picture. Unless you want to say a line that makes no sense
and is not related to the conversation.

Of course it's not your words and occassionaly none of the words describe your feeling but I think what you stated here made no sense at all.

How many choices are you given? It's usually the angelic good one, a snarky comedic one, a nuetral one then the over the top evil response.

The dialog does not determine how I am playing MY character. I know going in I want to play as the hero at first then I will play evil. I venture to say a lot of RPG gamers are structured like that.. if not, well awesome for them, everyone plays differently. So if the dialog rarely describes what I really want to say, why would I care in which way it is said? A wheel or actual written print? I dont. 

I do agree that having the dialog there stops any surprise dialog that was not intended. 

[Deviija]

I definitely agree. Get rid of the voiced protagonist, the dialogue wheel's poor paraphrasing, and cinematics where my PC cannot interact or at least has some say in how a situation might happen (i.e. just standing there and staring while people are slow-motion murderknifing next to my PC)

Modifié par Deviija, 08 avril 2011 - 02:46 .

[Rob Sabbaggio]

No thanks, I liked the dailogue wheel and voiced protagonist.

What I'd like to see is a neutral, silent option so I dont have to be just peaceful, aggressive or comedic, and a greater range of responses. Maybe the interrupts from ME2.

I found it really boring having the written text written down completely and then verbatim read out, I didnt like it in the Witcher.

Maybe the solution is to have an option to select to see full text or just paraphrasing? So you could have a dialogue wheel for those people that prefer it, or full text Dragon Age 1 style if you so preferred.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

When someone says "Get rid of the voiced protagonist" I heard echos of the sobs from when 3D models replaced sprites.

Get over it. Voiced protags are here to stay. You'll still see unvoiced protags, but not in real games.

[macrocarl]

I disagree with the OP. Sorry.
My witty sometimes scathing rogue Hawke was awesomely VO'd. I really loved the facial expressions and felt more immersed in the game then reading a bunch of text. I do recognize that it's a different experience when choosing a line of dialog, and that's fun too, but I'm actually really glad BW is moving away from that. I'm hoping they keep the wheel, the full VO and everything that comes with it, but find a way to incorporate coercion skills again.

[macrocarl]

Do you all think if the paraphrasing was a little clearer you would like the wheel option more? Personally, I like the gist stuff because then I can be pleasantly surprised/ shocked when the words come out of Hawke's mouth...... I was just curious.

[ItsToofy]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

When someone says "Get rid of the voiced protagonist" I heard echos of the sobs from when 3D models replaced sprites.

Get over it. Voiced protags are here to stay. You'll still see unvoiced protags, but not in real games.

That's a particularly ignorant thing to say

[JabberJaww]

mrcrusty wrote...

JabberJaww wrote...

Eurypterid wrote...

JabberJaww wrote...

I rarely found a dialog choice in DA:O (or any other RPG of that type) any where near what I would want my character to say.

The choices always ranged from the ridiculously angelic, to the ridiculously evil.

So whether or not the main is fully voiced with the dialog wheel, or the actually dialog being chosen.. we are given the choices the game developers want us to have. So you take away the fully voiced Hawke and replace it with a silent Hawke but with the EXACT same dialog lines to choose rather than hear him say them would make the game better?

You're missing the point the same way F-C is. The problem isn't the fact that you can only choose what the developers write into the game. That's fine. The issue is that with the dialog wheel you don't know what you're choosing. You make a choice and many times you end up going "What? That's not what I understood Hawke would say"

I like the dialog wheel, I get a laugh out of what is said quite a bit. 

I also like the traditional dialog choices. 

My point is whether or not I have to read and choose or simply choose an option on the wheel, I know going in which way I am going to play. Good or evil. So reading the choices or hearing them doesn't change my choice. Its how I want my character to play and who I want to be friends or rivals with. 

I understand that Bioware games don't always cater to much bigger and larger archtypes and pathways, but why limit yourself to the good/evil paradigm?

That's less of playing a role, it's more like playing a game. I want to complete the game with max good/bad points. It's not a bad thing, but again, why limit yourself to such extremes?

Now, this isn't aimed at any game in particular, but a well written game will not always force the player to act in such a binary manner. It rewards players for crafting a personality and sticking to that personality in making choices consistent with the personality, or even changing personality as the consequences of the choices become apparent. Okay, I can't name any concrete examples, but it's a little dream of mine.



One of the eloquent conflicts that Dragon Age 2 brings up (though poorly executed) was the paradigm of Mage v Templar, where there isn't a clear distinction between good v evil. There is only two sides, both of which have their mix of good, bad and inbetweeners. How do you make the decision which one to side with (again, DA 2 flaw because it doesn't matter)?

The simple good/evil paradigm is irrelevant. These are human organisations with their own motivations and goals. Most of which, are good at the core, but are corrupted by the evil actions that make it possible. How will you decide then?

The answer would be something along the lines of you deciding based upon the choices your character has made since the beginning, combined with the personality you crafted for the character. That's ideally what roleplaying gets you. It's not going to happen with everyone, but if you are immersed in the game, invested in your character and their adventures, then that's how you will look at things.

By adding the wheel, making dialog non specific, making the protagonist voiced, it takes away the choice from the player in three important aspects that help to build that connection with the character. It also means that the character can't be explored with the same depth otherwise, because part of the character is pre-conceived and has a personality of it's own.

This is fine with an interactive story, or an interactive movie, or a JRPG. But for a cRPG? Well, it depends on the execution. If there is enough narrative and roleplaying depth, then it's forgivable. Games like Witcher and PS:T fall under this category. Similarly so the game is so far removed from being a traditional cRPG that it's no longer an issue. The Mass Effect games fall under this category.

As far as I can see however, Dragon Age 2 falls under neither.

I understand the benefits of a readable dialog, but in both readable and voiced I am usually not entirely pleased with the choices. Believe me, I would welcome an RPG where the dialog choices actually made me think and change paths.. that would truly be a GREAT game. I just have not encoutered one. Have had tons of fun playing them through the years. For me the fun comes from the building and specing my char. 

[JabberJaww]

Xewaka wrote...

JabberJaww wrote...
Maybe for you, but not for me... WOW, different opinions
Going in, you kind of know how you are going to play. I usually play as a good character, so i will usually pick the "good" choice. Whether i can read it or not, I will pick the good one.. next play through i will play "evil: so jump right to the evil choice. I mean all this is nit picking. I like both systems. If they go with the dialog choices in DA3 I will be fine with it... but for me, the voice hasn't ruined the game....

How do you know the "good" quote is actually what your character would say if you can't know what your character will say before saying it?
That is why the paraphrase fails and full line doesn't. It has little to do with the voice/non-voice protagonist.

Agreed, I don't know... Most of the times the good readable dialog choices haven't been the best either. 

For me, it is still making the decision to play as a good, nuetral or evil character.

Like Kotor... ok, going to play as a Jedi first run, then go as a Sith. The dialog paths are usually pretty clear as to how to achieve that goal 

[sonsonthebia07]

JabberJaww wrote...

I understand the benefits of a readable dialog, but in both readable and voiced I am usually not entirely pleased with the choices. Believe me, I would welcome an RPG where the dialog choices actually made me think and change paths.. that would truly be a GREAT game. I just have not encoutered one. Have had tons of fun playing them through the years. For me the fun comes from the building and specing my char. 

I think the only way that you will be truely satisfied then is if you write the storyline in the game yourself. The choices are never always going to be exactly what you want them to be otherwise.

Modifié par sonsonthebia07, 08 avril 2011 - 02:56 .

[slimgrin]

They can voice protags all they want, but I think I still prefer to first seeing the full dialog response. At least having the option is nice.

Modifié par slimgrin, 08 avril 2011 - 02:56 .

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Fair enough. I'm also not a fan of the obvious good/bad/"witty" choices you're given in RPGs, if you even get those three. Out of curiosity, what RPGs have you played over the years?

It's sort of an annoying paradigm that the RPGs with the best options in terms of dialogue aren't always the best in terms of gameplay or combat.

But again, my preferred solution is for the playeys to be given the choice. Wheel w/ paraphrase or Full Text can be decided upon in the settings menu and voiced protagonist can be decided upon when you create a character.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 08 avril 2011 - 03:00 .

[JabberJaww]

sonsonthebia07 wrote...

JabberJaww wrote...

I understand the benefits of a readable dialog, but in both readable and voiced I am usually not entirely pleased with the choices. Believe me, I would welcome an RPG where the dialog choices actually made me think and change paths.. that would truly be a GREAT game. I just have not encoutered one. Have had tons of fun playing them through the years. For me the fun comes from the building and specing my char. 

I think the only way that you will be truely satisfied then is if you write the storyline in the game yourself. The choices are never always going to be exactly what you want them to be otherwise.

Hell yeah!! Now that would be one hell of an option for an RPG! Impossible to program, but that would be incredible.