159 réponses à ce sujet

[LeBurns]

The thing called DA2 recoiled me so far back that I actually had to go to GOG.com and buy Baldur's Gate 2 and replay it.

So I'm playing along and I'm in a city that forbids magic, Athkatla.  So forgetting this I cast a spell or two in town during some fights.  Low and behold the Cowled Wizards show up and tell me NO NO and attack.

So I started thinking well what would have really happened in Kirkwall if magic was actually forbidden there (by more than just word of mouth).  Would the game even be playable?  Waves and waves of enemies and of course you are going to cast some spells, be them either offensive or defensive.  What if everytime you did 20 (5 per 4 waves of course) Templars came after you ... while you are still fighting the enemies that are spawning in.  While maybe more realistic in a city that is full of Templars and forbids magic use, but is it impossible?  Would there even be any Templars left in town after Act 2?  Curious.

[-Skorpious-]

What many fail to realize is that older games were easier to make, thus, more resources could be pooled into atmospheric encounters like the one described above. While this doesn't necessarily rule out encounters/events than ban a particular gameplay mechanic or class in a modern setting, it would, due to technical standards (i.e allocating a large amount of time and resources required in successfully designing the graphic heavy games of today), be a lot harder to implement in modern games.

Besides adding extra costs, another factor is that many gamers would dislike being made useless in combat. Normally I wouldn't mind (as a mage) being made sub-standard for an encounter or two, but Kirkwall is pretty much 80% of the game -  thats a long time to spend being useless.

Modifié par -Skorpious-, 07 avril 2011 - 06:50 .

[Lacan2]

Yeah, this would help.

In BG2 you got so powerful that you could just farm the Cowled Wizards for scrolls and such.

Modifié par Lacan2, 07 avril 2011 - 06:51 .

[marshalleck]

-Skorpious- wrote...

What many fail to realize is that older games were easier to make, thus, more resources could be pooled into atmospheric encounters like the one described above. While this doesn't necessarily rule out encounters/events than ban a particular gameplay mechanic or class in a modern setting, it would, due to technical standards (i.e allocating a large amount of time and resources required in successfully designing the graphic heavy games of today), be a lot harder to implement in modern games.

Besides adding extra costs, another factor is that many gamers would dislike being made useless in combat. Normally I wouldn't mind (as a mage) being made sub-standard for an encounter or two, but Kirkwall is pretty much 80% of the game -  thats a long time to spend being useless.

What a load of nonsense. I suppose you're saying the psychic guards in Oblivion that come running whenever the PC commited a crime within a town or city didn't exist? It can be done, even in modern games, it's just a matter of the designers wanting to do it. And apparently they didn't with DA2, and the game is less for it. 

And besides, they don't even need to be psychic. It wouldn't even make sense for Templars to come running each time your mage casts a spell; all you really need is reactivity. It was absurd the number of times I would see a Chantry priest or Templar walk through the middle of a combat scenario without reacting either to people stabbing each other in the streets or magic going off all around them. 

If there are no Templars around when your mage casts a spell, they wouldn't be summoned. It's not like they have anti-magic alarms. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 07 avril 2011 - 06:56 .

[LeBurns]

I guess that kinda where I'm going with this. It just seems that somewhere in the initial game concept and design someone missed the fact that the game is 90% combat, which includes magic, and it's taking place in a city that forbids magic and is full of Templars. Game design resources being whatever this is something someone should have figured out. Useless they figured the awesome button overrides common sense.

[neppakyo]

marshalleck wrote...

What a load of nonsense. I suppose you're saying the psychic guards in Oblivion that come running whenever the PC commited a crime within a town or city didn't exist? It can be done, even in modern games, it's just a matter of the designers wanting to do it. And apparently they didn't with DA2, and the game is less for it. 

And besides, they don't even need to be psychic. It wouldn't even make sense for Templars to come running each time your mage casts a spell; all you really need is reactivity. It was absurd the number of times I would see a Chantry priest or Templar walk through the middle of a combat scenario without reacting either to people stabbing each other in the streets or magic going off all around them. 

If there are no Templars around when your mage casts a spell, they wouldn't be summoned. It's not like they have anti-magic alarms. 

They had to devote more time to the huge bustling city full of NPC's, the unique colourful envrionments and huge amount of non recycled maps. Don't forget the care and time spent on the perfectly balanced combat and wave system.

 

[Maverick827]

I don't think it's a matter of what is possible, but instead a matter of what is desired. BioWare did not desire to annoy the player with such a mechanic in DA2.

[Galad22]

-Skorpious- wrote...

What many fail to realize is that older games were easier to make, thus, more resources could be pooled into atmospheric encounters like the one described above. While this doesn't necessarily rule out encounters/events than ban a particular gameplay mechanic or class in a modern setting, it would, due to technical standards (i.e allocating a large amount of time and resources required in successfully designing the graphic heavy games of today), be a lot harder to implement in modern games.

Besides adding extra costs, another factor is that many gamers would dislike being made useless in combat. Normally I wouldn't mind (as a mage) being made sub-standard for an encounter or two, but Kirkwall is pretty much 80% of the game -  thats a long time to spend being useless.

People shouldn't accept lower quality products just because they are more expensive to make these days.

[Eurypterid]

This is one of a number of issues I have with the game. Not that they needed to have the same kind of mechanic as BG2 did, but at least something to acknowledge that your party includes either an apostate mage or a blood mage (or both). As it stands, for all the fear and paranoia that's supposed to be attached to mages in Kirkwall, no one seems to care that you're slinging forbidden magic around left and right. It's these internal logical inconsistencies that really throw the player out of the game.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Scripting didn't change really. If anything, today there are far more powerfull tools for scripting stuff.

Give me ONE day and I can add templars to Denerim and Redclifee that will come if hte party uses magic. Complete with conversations and bribes and such.

[Veracruz]

marshalleck wrote...

 it's just a matter of the designers wanting to do it

Ignorance in a nut.

Because money grows in trees and designers/developers have unlimited time to do wahtever crosses their mind.

Really.

Seriously.

I swear.

True story.

<_<

[marshalleck]

Veracruz wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

 it's just a matter of the designers wanting to do it

Ignorance in a nut.

Because money grows in trees and designers/developers have unlimited time to do wahtever crosses their mind.

Really.

Seriously.

I swear.

True story.

<_<

How is that ignorant? I already supplied an example of a modern game made with a modern budget featuring modern graphics and modern everything else where city guards had reactivity to a player's actions. It can be done; Bioware didn't want to do it. The end. 

[Maverick827]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Maverick827 wrote...

I don't think it's a matter of what is possible, but instead a matter of what is desired. BioWare did not desire to annoy the player with such a mechanic in DA2.

If they had desired not to annoy the player, they woudln't have put the annoying-ass Naruto waves in the game

I didn't find the enemy waves annoying, though I do believe they could have been implemented better.  Your example is quite subjective.

Giving one class out of three an explicit handicap and/or more gameplay, though, is a rather objective thing.

[Captain Sassy Pants]

Not only this, but give me a day/night cycle (and weather). I don't want a "cinematic" experience with static environments, I want to play in a living, breathing world full of atmosphere.

[marshalleck]

Captain Sassy Pants wrote...

Not only this, but give me a day/night cycle (and weather). I don't want a "cinematic" experience with static environments, I want to play in a living, breathing world full of atmosphere.

This is something Bioware have had little interest in since Baldur's Gate. If you really want this I think you're looking at the wrong developer. This is Bethesda's specialty. 

[astrallite]

-Skorpious- wrote...

snip

You need a job in the Bioware PR department so Matt Laidlaw doesn't need to do interviews with the journalists.

Modifié par astrallite, 07 avril 2011 - 07:29 .

[Captain Sassy Pants]

Maverick827 wrote...

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Maverick827 wrote...

I don't think it's a matter of what is possible, but instead a matter of what is desired. BioWare did not desire to annoy the player with such a mechanic in DA2.

If they had desired not to annoy the player, they woudln't have put the annoying-ass Naruto waves in the game

I didn't find the enemy waves annoying, though I do believe they could have been implemented better.  Your example is quite subjective.

Giving one class out of three an explicit handicap and/or more gameplay, though, is a rather objective thing.

Your comment of "annoying the player" is just as subjective. You'd be annoyed by it, doesn't mean everyone will. Besides, it would probably affect most players, as I imagine most bring at least one mage with them (I know I do).

Logic and consistency are "annoying"? I thought it added to atmosphere and "immersion", but I guess it's that attitude that has contributed to mediocrity in gaming. Thank you.

Modifié par Captain Sassy Pants, 07 avril 2011 - 07:27 .

[Captain Sassy Pants]

marshalleck wrote...

Captain Sassy Pants wrote...

Not only this, but give me a day/night cycle (and weather). I don't want a "cinematic" experience with static environments, I want to play in a living, breathing world full of atmosphere.

This is something Bioware have had little interest in since Baldur's Gate. If you really want this I think you're looking at the wrong developer. This is Bethesda's specialty. 

Pretty sad... the (gasp, here it comes) Witcher had atmosphere in spades. At least someone cares.

[abaris]

Why even create a place where magic is forbidden and mages are hunted if you're determined to completely ignore your own creation? That's a first class immersion breaker in my books. Even a 2d action game like gunslinger was able to create a reactive environment. If you attacked someone opnely, they were after you.

[Galad22]

Maverick827 wrote...
I didn't find the enemy waves annoying, though I do believe they could have been implemented better.  Your example is quite subjective.

Giving one class out of three an explicit handicap and/or more gameplay, though, is a rather objective thing.

You should look at the mirror, since your point is just as subjective, even more so really. At least this would have basis on lore unlike teleporting ninjas.

[DraCZeQQ]

neppakyo wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

What a load of nonsense. I suppose you're saying the psychic guards in Oblivion that come running whenever the PC commited a crime within a town or city didn't exist? It can be done, even in modern games, it's just a matter of the designers wanting to do it. And apparently they didn't with DA2, and the game is less for it. 

And besides, they don't even need to be psychic. It wouldn't even make sense for Templars to come running each time your mage casts a spell; all you really need is reactivity. It was absurd the number of times I would see a Chantry priest or Templar walk through the middle of a combat scenario without reacting either to people stabbing each other in the streets or magic going off all around them. 

If there are no Templars around when your mage casts a spell, they wouldn't be summoned. It's not like they have anti-magic alarms. 

They had to devote more time to the huge bustling city full of NPC's, the unique colourful envrionments and huge amount of non recycled maps. Don't forget the care and time spent on the perfectly balanced combat and wave system.

 

Low blow! 

EDIT: I personally feel that they should hava cut on combats together (i would settle with half the combat encounters!) and instead implement some kind of challenging spell checking mechanism and other NON COMBAT! LORE FRIENDLY STUFF (that would actually make sense) that would force player to make TACTICAL! decisions (ie. decisions WHERE TO FIGHT, HOW TO FIGHT, what npc take in fight, what sustained methods to use, ...) ... this would make the game way more interesting, challenging and unique ...

Modifié par DraCZeQQ, 07 avril 2011 - 07:36 .

[ItsToofy]

Captain Sassy Pants wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Captain Sassy Pants wrote...

Not only this, but give me a day/night cycle (and weather). I don't want a "cinematic" experience with static environments, I want to play in a living, breathing world full of atmosphere.

This is something Bioware have had little interest in since Baldur's Gate. If you really want this I think you're looking at the wrong developer. This is Bethesda's specialty. 

Pretty sad... the (gasp, here it comes) Witcher had atmosphere in spades. At least someone cares.

The world was living too, when it rained people were starting to run for cover, not everyone stays in the same place at all times, I felt more in tune with the atmosphere of that game and felt as if I was in that world more than Kirkwall, that may be why I enjoyed Witcher more.

[LeBurns]

ItsToofy wrote...
The world was living too, when it rained people were starting to run for cover, not everyone stays in the same place at all times, I felt more in tune with the atmosphere of that game and felt as if I was in that world more than Kirkwall, that may be why I enjoyed Witcher more.

Even Morrowind had rainstorms and thunder (first time I heard it I fell out of my chair).  But the NPC's did tend to just stand around in it.  Oddly enough a DS game I played last year, Rune Factory 3, had weather and the NPC's would all run inside during rain and snow.

Money, time, etc. whatever.  Honestly I just can not give an excuse I would even believe for why they did this in DA2.