159 réponses à ce sujet

[Nimpe]

They had a years time.

[LeBurns]

You know what you could do in a year with an existing game engine and models? Look at the differences between BG and BG2, they are minor and both are great games.
 
For DA2 they CHOSE to remake and redo everything, even given the timeline they had.

Modifié par LeBurns, 07 avril 2011 - 08:00 .

[-Semper-]

Nimpe wrote...

They had a years time.

it's not the timeframe but bio's attitude to focus completely on fights and "awesome" stuff. obsidian was able to fill fallout's world with life and bring it back to glory in just one year... but that was their goal

Modifié par -Semper-, 07 avril 2011 - 07:57 .

[PirateT138]

It continually disappoints me when I realize that games that are YEARS older than DA2 do things much, much better.

Fable 2's passage of time puts DA2 to shame.

[HoonDing]

In the Witcher, city guards will help out when you're busy slashing thugs in the streets. Also, citizens will run away and cry for help. The Gothic games as well have reactive citizens and guards. Hell, even Assassin's Creed does.

It's just BioWare that cannot or doesn't want to design dynamic cities. It's exactly the same deal in KOTOR, Jade Empire and Mass Effect.

[ItsToofy]

-Semper- wrote...

Nimpe wrote...

They had a years time.

it's not the timeframe but bio's attitude to focus completely on fights and "awesome" stuff. obsidian was able to fill fallout's world with life and bring it back to glory in just one year... but that was their goal

Alot of Obsidian came from Black Isle studios from back in the day, they had an emotional attachment to the series as well, in one year they took the base of what was given to them and turned it into a masterpiece worthy of being the Fallout 3 we should have had.

[Maverick827]

Galad22 wrote...

You should look at the mirror, since your point is just as subjective, even more so really.

Not really. It is quite an objective observation that mages being harassed by templars provides some sort of imbalance between the classes, either positive or negative (e.g. either it's annoying or it's more story, depending on the player's opinion). BioWare felt that it was not worth implementing.

Saying that "waves were annoying" is entirely a subjective statement. Since it affects all classes (e.g. all players) equally, there is no such objectivity as with the other choice.

[Galad22]

Maverick827 wrote...
Not really. It is quite an objective observation that mages being harassed by templars provides some sort of imbalance between the classes, either positive or negative (e.g. either it's annoying or it's more story, depending on the player's opinion). BioWare felt that it was not worth implementing.

Saying that "waves were annoying" is entirely a subjective statement. Since it affects all classes (e.g. all players) equally, there is no such objectivity as with the other choice.

You never had an apostate mage in your team then?

I find that extraordinary. Since I always had.

Modifié par Galad22, 07 avril 2011 - 08:03 .

[JabbaDaHutt30]

-Semper- wrote...

Nimpe wrote...

They had a years time.

it's not the timeframe but bio's attitude to focus completely on fights and "awesome" stuff. obsidian was able to fill fallout's world with life and bring it back to glory in just one year... but that was their goal

They got a lot of their materials from what Bethesda did with Fallout 3, which had already got the Fallout franchise 'back to glory'.

[addiction21]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Scripting didn't change really. If anything, today there are far more powerfull tools for scripting stuff.

Give me ONE day and I can add templars to Denerim and Redclifee that will come if hte party uses magic. Complete with conversations and bribes and such.

Its 4pm Thursday the 7th of april. I will just bookmark this thread and be looking for that mod tomorrow.

[Galad22]

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

They got a lot of their materials from what Bethesda did with Fallout 3, which had already got the Fallout franchise 'back to glory'.

Bioware had exactly same thing with DA:O, they just ignored it completely.

[ItsToofy]

virumor wrote...

In the Witcher, city guards will help out when you're busy slashing thugs in the streets. Also, citizens will run away and cry for help. The Gothic games as well have reactive citizens and guards. Hell, even Assassin's Creed does.

It's just BioWare that cannot or doesn't want to design dynamic cities. It's exactly the same deal in KOTOR, Jade Empire and Mass Effect.

It's funny, since the Witcher was developed using Bioware's engine

[TeamVR]

PirateT138 wrote...

It continually disappoints me when I realize that games that are YEARS older than DA2 do things much, much better.

Fable 2's passage of time puts DA2 to shame.

^this

And it really annoys me because BIOWARE were the one's saying that DA2 in one city would be a more intimate experience. They quoted the 10 year timespan as something that would be a new and refreshing experience. And it failed to live up to their words, not by an inch but by a country mile. How many years did we follow Hawke and your telling me they couldnt even move a single NPC from one spot to another? Not a single one?? After 10 years the only addition to the city is a crappy statue on the docks. Really??

Modifié par TeamVR, 07 avril 2011 - 08:12 .

[the_one_54321]

-Skorpious- wrote...
What many fail to realize is that older games were easier to make,

DAII was made in only 18 months. The above excuse no longer holds any water. If they could do that much in 18 months, then maybe they just should not have rushed the game through production and instead have taken 36 months to present something that wasn't loaded with cut corners in the mechanics and narrative alike.

[ItsToofy]

TeamVR wrote...

PirateT138 wrote...

It continually disappoints me when I realize that games that are YEARS older than DA2 do things much, much better.

Fable 2's passage of time puts DA2 to shame.

^this

And it really annoys me because BIOWARE were the one's saying that DA2 in one city would be a more intimate experience. They quoted the 10 year timespan as something that would be a new and refreshing experience. And it failed to live up to their words, not by an inch but by a country mile. How many years did we follow Hawke and your telling em they couldnt even move a single NPC from one spot to another? Not a single one?? After 10 years the only addition to the city is a crappy statue on the docks. Really??

How can people possibly defend this? How? 

They do, and they will, it is an inevitability [/agentsmith]

[Kimberly Shaw]

The LEAD Level Designer came out and said it was a choice between "perfect logic" and fun to have the game ignore your throwing blood magic, and they chose fun! Isn't that nice of them!

GRR.

Q: Blood Magic is a forbidden art in the world of DA2, but the main character uses it freely during the game against civilians and Templars. How is that logical?

A: Well, sometimes you have to give up perfect inner logic to make the game more fun. This is one of these cases.

Modifié par Kimberly Shaw, 07 avril 2011 - 08:20 .

[ItsToofy]

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

The LEAD Level Designer came out and said it was a choice between "perfect logic" and fun to have the game ignore your throwing blood magic, and they chose fun! Isn't that nice of them!

GRR.

i guess logic does not equivilate to fun anymore, and 2 + 2 = 5 if it's more fun. I prefer logic, i liked how in Fallout 2, if I sold someone to slavery, I was a slaver and was treated as such, even so far as having people come after me because of it...and if I killed a child in game....oooooo boy...wait...wasnt that game released almost 15 years ago?

[Galad22]

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

The LEAD Level Designer came out and said it was a choice between "perfect logic" and fun to have the game ignore your throwing blood magic, and they chose fun! Isn't that nice of them!

GRR.

It constantly amazes me how Bioware underestimated their customers so badly with DA2.

These games are k-18, yes? Somehow 18 and up still doesn't seem to be their target demographics.

[Kimberly Shaw]

It's just the general dumbing down of the game. They are trying to be more appealing to the "masses" and the "masses" would not like it if throwing a fireball in front of a templar or being a blood mage was more difficult than being a rogue/warrior, even if logically, it should. Then there are those of us who want immersion and like the lore of the game and want the game to follow the logic dictated by the lore THEY GAVE TO US.

I hope this gets to them that logic = fun.

[TeamVR]

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

The LEAD Level Designer came out and said it was a choice between "perfect logic" and fun to have the game ignore your throwing blood magic, and they chose fun! Isn't that nice of them!

GRR.

I don't get why he even said that because it doesn't take "perfect logic" to, i dunno, have a merchant replaced with a younger model after a chapter. You talk to him, and he tells you of how his dad died and he took over the business. How long would that take to impliment? 20 minutes? 

Here, bioware, another example: Hawke advances from from chapter 1 to 2, the blight has been defeated by the warden. In lowtown there is a new merchant, who tells hawke that he's a refugee from Ferelden that decided to stay in Kirkwall and make a living by selling wares. Going from chapter 2 to 3, we see the same merchant has moved on up to high town where he tells hawke that business has been very good. 

I came up with those ideas in about 3 minutes. They could have had little things like those sprinkled all over the city! That wouldnt require "perfect logic" just a tiny bit of damn effort. thats all!

[ItsToofy]

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

It's just the general dumbing down of the game. They are trying to be more appealing to the "masses" and the "masses" would not like it if throwing a fireball in front of a templar or being a blood mage was more difficult than being a rogue/warrior, even if logically, it should. Then there are those of us who want immersion and like the lore of the game and want the game to follow the logic dictated by the lore THEY GAVE TO US.

I hope this gets to them that logic = fun.

Logic = realism - fun

fantasy =/= realism

therefore the simple formula of logic + fantasy =/= fun

[Tirigon]

-Skorpious- wrote...

What many fail to realize is that older games were easier to make, thus, more resources could be pooled into atmospheric encounters like the one described above. While this doesn't necessarily rule out encounters/events than ban a particular gameplay mechanic or class in a modern setting, it would, due to technical standards (i.e allocating a large amount of time and resources required in successfully designing the graphic heavy games of today), be a lot harder to implement in modern games. ´

Whitch just serves to say that devs should put less effort into grahics (though not in DA2´s case, graphics there were already on 2005 level:sick:) and more into the actual game.

Besides adding extra costs, another factor is that many gamers would dislike being made useless in combat. Normally I wouldn't mind (as a mage) being made sub-standard for an encounter or two, but Kirkwall is pretty much 80% of the game -  thats a long time to spend being useless.

This is a good point.
But then, the whole idea to set a game in which you can play a mage in Kirkwall is bullsh!t. MageHawke would never have gone there, and non-mage Hawkes would do so only if they hate their sister..............

[ItsToofy]

TeamVR wrote...

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

The LEAD Level Designer came out and said it was a choice between "perfect logic" and fun to have the game ignore your throwing blood magic, and they chose fun! Isn't that nice of them!

GRR.

I don't get why he even said that because it doesn't take "perfect logic" to, i dunno, have a merchant replaced with a younger model after a chapter. You talk to him, and he tells you of how his dad died and he took over the business. How long would that take to impliment? 20 minutes? 

Here, bioware, another example: Hawke advances from from chapter 1 to 2, the blight has been defeated by the warden. In lowtown there is a new merchant, who tells hawke that he's a refugee from Ferelden that decided to stay in Kirkwall and make a living by selling wares. Going from chapter 2 to 3, we see the same merchant has moved on up to high town where he tells hawke that business has been very good. 

I came up with those ideas in about 3 minutes. They could have had little things like those sprinkled all over the city! That wouldnt require "perfect logic" just a tiny bit of damn effort. thats all!

Bioware needs to read any of the Dungeon Master's Guides for most P&P RPGs in existance today, it's almost hammered into you that if you want your players to be immersed in your world you need to make the world feel like a living place, otherwise the characters will have no emotional attachment to the locations or the people because there is a lack of immersion in the world and they will not be connected to it, for example, day and night shifts at a tavern, you go in at daytime and Barlamin Butterbar is running the place, you come in at night and its Sandy Koefax the portly yet delightful barmaid with a chest to rest empty mugs on...immersion!

[Maverick827]

Galad22 wrote...

You never had an apostate mage in your team then?

That does not matter.  Handling Hawke as an apostate would had to have been different than handling Bethany as a mage or Merrill as a mage in terms of dialog, cinematic, and plot structure.

Unless you're solely asking for a shallow "templars aggro on sight" mechanic: I suppose that could have been added somewhat easily.

[ItsToofy]

Maverick827 wrote...

Galad22 wrote...

You never had an apostate mage in your team then?

That does not matter.  Handling Hawke as an apostate would had to have been different than handling Bethany as a mage or Merrill as a mage in terms of dialog, cinematic, and plot structure.

Unless you're solely asking for a shallow "templars aggro on sight" mechanic: I suppose that could have been added somewhat easily.

Or Templars aggro upon magic use, which would then increase a hidden bar that would increase the liklihood of templars attacking on sight, the more magic used, the more noticed and notorious your character would be to the templars and will be attacked on sight if you just go throwing fireballs at candles to light up a chantry.