159 réponses à ce sujet

[the_one_54321]

ItsToofy wrote...
Logic = realism - fun

fantasy =/= realism

therefore the simple formula of logic + fantasy =/= fun

Logic != Realism

Logic = internal consistency

False: fantasy != internal consistency

Therefore false: logic + fantasy != fun



Your first assertion is incorrect, therefore everything that follows is unsupported.

[-Skorpious-]

marshalleck wrote...

-Skorpious- wrote...

What many fail to realize is that older games were easier to make, thus, more resources could be pooled into atmospheric encounters like the one described above. While this doesn't necessarily rule out encounters/events than ban a particular gameplay mechanic or class in a modern setting, it would, due to technical standards (i.e allocating a large amount of time and resources required in successfully designing the graphic heavy games of today), be a lot harder to implement in modern games.

Besides adding extra costs, another factor is that many gamers would dislike being made useless in combat. Normally I wouldn't mind (as a mage) being made sub-standard for an encounter or two, but Kirkwall is pretty much 80% of the game -  thats a long time to spend being useless.

What a load of nonsense. I suppose you're saying the psychic guards in Oblivion that come running whenever the PC commited a crime within a town or city didn't exist? It can be done, even in modern games, it's just a matter of the designers wanting to do it. And apparently they didn't with DA2, and the game is less for it. 

And besides, they don't even need to be psychic. It wouldn't even make sense for Templars to come running each time your mage casts a spell; all you really need is reactivity. It was absurd the number of times I would see a Chantry priest or Templar walk through the middle of a combat scenario without reacting either to people stabbing each other in the streets or magic going off all around them. 

If there are no Templars around when your mage casts a spell, they wouldn't be summoned. It's not like they have anti-magic alarms. 

Fair points. Most of my post alluded to restricting mages in a setting were mages were constantly watched by superior forces. In Oblivion stealing/killing innocents is completey voluntary - fighting enemies in DA2 is absolutely essential. I too would have liked more recognition from the Templars for being a mage, but if it happened ALL THE TIME it would get old quite fast. However, the occasional skirmish with the Templars wouldn't bother me.

Plus, I never said it was IMPOSSIBLE, just more unlikely given the casualfication of many RPG elements in modern games. 

Edit - I quite like the idea a previous poster mentioned about an "agrro" system for mages when in a Templar patrol zone. 

Modifié par -Skorpious-, 07 avril 2011 - 08:38 .

[ItsToofy]

the_one_54321 wrote...

ItsToofy wrote...
Logic = realism - fun

fantasy =/= realism

therefore the simple formula of logic + fantasy =/= fun

Logic != Realism

Logic = internal consistency

False: fantasy != internal consistency

Therefore false: logic + fantasy != fun



Your first assertion is incorrect, therefore everything that follows is unsupported.

that was pretty much sarcasm, I'd prefer to see logic in my fantasy, cause I find it fun.

[astrallite]

nm

Modifié par astrallite, 07 avril 2011 - 08:43 .

[the_one_54321]

ItsToofy wrote...
that was pretty much sarcasm, I'd prefer to see logic in my fantasy, cause I find it fun.

Oh! Well... never mind then...

[-Semper-]

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

They got a lot of their materials from what Bethesda did with Fallout 3, which had already got the Fallout franchise 'back to glory'.

you are right that bethesda revived the franshise and without there probably would be no new vegas but they did not put it to glory. they are great in making sandbox games and in their own ip but fallout3 horribly lacks in atmosphere and lore. after all it's obsidians baby and you can feel this every single minute. they were glad to finally bring back aspects from van buren

Modifié par -Semper-, 07 avril 2011 - 08:48 .

[Mantaal]

marshalleck wrote...

Veracruz wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

 it's just a matter of the designers wanting to do it

Ignorance in a nut.

Because money grows in trees and designers/developers have unlimited time to do wahtever crosses their mind.

Really.

Seriously.

I swear.

True story.

<_<

How is that ignorant? I already supplied an example of a modern game made with a modern budget featuring modern graphics and modern everything else where city guards had reactivity to a player's actions. It can be done; Bioware didn't want to do it. The end. 

Really if i had money for 1 game and have 2 Games i would like to buy in my hands..
One has good graphics and nice Combat but bad features and anything cool skipped out because of the Gameplay.
And one had Older Graphics but a Huge game world, different Races, a deep story and features like the Mages in BG2.

It would not be hard to choose a game for me.

But i dont even think Graphics is a excuse for a half assed Game where everything was so minimiced like in DA2. If that would be True DA2 should have the Town full of Hi-Res. NPCs with alot shiny glowing Armor and would look better then Crysis2 and the Witcher2 combined.

[the_one_54321]

18 months of development time.

Really.

Seriously.

I swear.

True story.

[the_one_54321]

Fandango9641 wrote...
A world full of magic users, dragons and the like doesn’t have to be logical or realistic, it just has to be convincing enough to allow me to suspend my disbelief.

What you're talking about is internal consistency. A lack of self contradiction. That actually is logical, it's just that it's not logical according to the rules of our existence. It means logical according to the rules of existence in the game's world.

[Mantaal]

Fandango9641 wrote...

A world full of magic users, dragons and the like doesn’t have to be logical or realistic, it just has to be convincing enough to allow me to suspend my disbelief. The juxtaposition between the storyline and setting for DA2 was too just much for me to overcome; I mean come on, both are at complete odds with each other right?!

I think a Fantasy World has to be realistic. Its very important it is realistic. Forgotten realms are such a Huge and great universe because of the realism.
Realism in a Fantasy world isnt a thing that cant exsist. There are rules in those worlds and they are important to make the world authentic.
And Elf in Lord of the Rings is an elf and he is bound on the rules for Elves in that world. No one want to see Legolas in Lord of the Rings turn into a Cyber-Robot with laser eyes just because its fantasy. Thats not realistic and not logical.
You need gravity, Air to breath and all those things in such a world. If you dont make a Fantasy world Realistic based of its own rules, peoples would not accept it and it would be a huge failure.

And Elf alone is not realistic because they dont exsist in Real life. But he has to be realistic in the Fantasy world he lives in. Otherwise the whole world you create would not work. It would be a boring world not worth to have as a setting for a Game.

[Seitur]

Well to me streamlining also almost always seem to have less features thou = lower costs.

What I find sad is BW patent for DA2 is to release LOW BUDGET game with HIGH Price Tag.

If that what some of future BW single player games will look like...

[PirateT138]

the_one_54321 wrote...

18 months of development time.

Really.

Seriously.

I swear.

True story.

I'm  not sure if you're justifying the shortcomings, pointing out the time line (as an FYI) or making fun of the absurdly short development cycle.

But as a point of reference:  who set they development? THEY DID.  It should not have been a rushed product, no one was holding their puppies hostage with a gun to their heads.  They could have/should have had a longer development cycle. 

For anyone to go, "Well they only have 18 months, that's why it's not as good," is a stupid argument.  

It's like a surgeon going, "Yeah, we only got 1/2 way through the surgery and your husband died, sorry."

"Oh my god, why did you only get 1/2 way through?!?"

"Because it was time for us to be done, duh."

"But you weren't finished?"

"But it was time to be done, ma'am."

Setting your own timeline and failing is just...well...stupid.

[the_one_54321]

Fandango9641 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
18 months of development time.

Really.

Seriously.

I swear.

True story.

So are you bemoaning the lack of development time for DA2 or attempting to use it as an excuse for Biowares poor design choices?

No, I'm saying that the lack of development time implies that the "it's expensive" argument is totally bogus. It can't be expensive when they took only 18 months. They didn't spend 5 years of overhead, they didn't even spend 2 years of overhead. The game was in development for only 18 months. Where did they spend the money? Hiring two more voice actors for Hawke cost as much as 3 years of development time maybe? Is that where you think the money went to?

[Tirigon]

Well....

[Kimberly Shaw]

Yes, they only took 18 months. BUT...the world and setting are already developed AND the game engine is already developed. Those two things took years from DA:O. The LEAD designer that I love to quote even said because they had the engine already in place they could do things much faster than before. Read that interview, it's linked on the front page of this forum still.

[astrallite]

Laidlaw = if you want to play Baldur's Gate, go play Baldur's Gate

[the_one_54321]

Kimberly Shaw wrote...
Yes, they only took 18 months. BUT...the world and setting are already developed AND the game engine is already developed. Those two things took years from DA:O. The LEAD designer that I love to quote even said because they had the engine already in place they could do things much faster than before. Read that interview, it's linked on the front page of this forum still.

So what? 
That didn't magically make the game more expensive. If it's so expensive to produce a game, then where did the spend the money? Did they give all their employees a 2 year salary bonus so that the cost could be on par with DA:O? 

And more importantly, if they were able to save that much time, why couldn't they have used the saved time to avoid having all these glaring cut corners?

[Galad22]

Maverick827 wrote...
That does not matter.  Handling Hawke as an apostate would had to have been different than handling Bethany as a mage or Merrill as a mage in terms of dialog, cinematic, and plot structure.

Unless you're solely asking for a shallow "templars aggro on sight" mechanic: I suppose that could have been added somewhat easily.

Of course it does matter, and yes I doubt handling would have been that different for either of the mages, for templars dialogue might be about the same, but different dialogue with other mages.

And now I don't want templars to aggro on sight, but they should ask some serious question, perphaps you coul bribe them or something.

[sonsonthebia07]

I could look past most of the reactions that people should be having to Hawke being a mage and slinging about fireballs, but the one thing that bothers me the most is, even when I am playing a BLOOD MAGE, the only dialogue options dealing with the subject that I noticed always seem to border on "blood mages are evil kill them all!" or some such.

And Hawke is still always so damn surprised every time he sees it happen even if he's a blood mage and has Merrill around who is also a blood mage. "BLOOD MAGIC?! NOT IN MY KIRKWALL!"

[Galad22]

sonsonthebia07 wrote...

I could look past most of the reactions that people should be having to Hawke being a mage and slinging about fireballs, but the one thing that bothers me the most is, even when I am playing a BLOOD MAGE, the only dialogue options dealing with the subject that I noticed always seem to border on "blood mages are evil kill them all!" or some such.

And Hawke is still always so damn surprised every time he sees it happen even if he's a blood mage and has Merrill around who is also a blood mage. "BLOOD MAGIC?! NOT IN MY KIRKWALL!"

This is the reason I didn't take bloodmagic.

[Taura-Tierno]

I was never a fan of the attacks in BG2. It just kind of felt like the Cowled wizards were really weak, since they couldn't throw everything they had to catch the "apostate". The idea was good, but I never really liked it.

In DA2, it would've been the same. Encounters just for encounters sake would've been pointless. If you had been revealed as an apostate to the point of templars attacking you randomly, there's no way you could have an estate. The templars would've seized it. And killed you. I don't believe for a second that Hawke could survive the onslaught of the entire templar order in Kirkwall.

[DraCZeQQ]

Taura-Tierno wrote...

I was never a fan of the attacks in BG2. It just kind of felt like the Cowled wizards were really weak, since they couldn't throw everything they had to catch the "apostate". The idea was good, but I never really liked it.

In DA2, it would've been the same. Encounters just for encounters sake would've been pointless. If you had been revealed as an apostate to the point of templars attacking you randomly, there's no way you could have an estate. The templars would've seized it. And killed you. I don't believe for a second that Hawke could survive the onslaught of the entire templar order in Kirkwall.

Then its a BAD DESIGN, either of the lore, the story or the class ... if they must constantly break their lore and logics of the world they designed to make the game actually FUN ... well its just a sign of really BAD DESIGN!

EDIT: its the same story as TAINT, everyone seems to be pretty much immune to it, except for cutscenes! again BAD DESIGN ... I dont find breaking THEIR OWN rules for the sake of FUN as nothing else then a BAD DESIGN! 

Modifié par DraCZeQQ, 07 avril 2011 - 10:52 .

[Fishy]

Veracruz wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

 it's just a matter of the designers wanting to do it

Ignorance in a nut.

Because money grows in trees and designers/developers have unlimited time to do wahtever crosses their mind.

Really.

Seriously.

I swear.

True story.

<_<

No . Ignorance`s trying to purchase a new Ferarri with 5000 Bucks .That just what seem to happens today.

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

I don't think we're in Baldur's Gate anymore Toto...

[Fishy]

From what i gathered anywa. in a couple of years .. The budget will be to tight for any gameplay or option.So just call it a CGI movie with a 'press the button each hours' and call it gameplay .. When someone will ask you why they removed everything that make a RPG a rpg they will say..

-WE EVOLVED!!

OR

- TO EXPENSIVE!!We need to pump the polygons count and pay overpaid actor.

Than they will put a super huge exclamation point on a NPC because eh . .That  5 minutes long quest cost 70,000$ to make .. Make sure no one miss it!!!

Fanboy- Look at teh skyy.. It''s so reeeeallll
Developper - Yeahh ... half the budget went into it.
Drooling Fanboy - I don't care it's so reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaal
Developper - Sight

Modifié par Suprez30, 07 avril 2011 - 11:51 .