159 réponses à ce sujet

[wowpwnslol]

BG2 and DA2 are very different in regards to magic.

In the first game, the Cowled Wizards are not actually looking to restrict magic - they are just trying to get you to cough up the gold for their "magic license". It's legalized extortion basically.

In DA2, you're surrounded by a legion of religious zealots who see maleficar at every turn. Mages are confined to a tower, pretty much like prisoners. These guys don't want a bribe - they just want to lock you up. The only way to survive as a free mage is to go into hiding.

Honestly, this is one of the few times I'll side with Bioware on the issue. It was either remove mage class from the game or cook up some unsatisfying scenario where you're able to cast spells in templars faces and people would complain anyway. There is no way to follow the champion's path as a mage in DA2, if you go for realism. You would be instantly arrested and sent to the Circle as soon as you entered Kirkwell. Game over.

[DraCZeQQ]

wowpwnslol wrote...
Honestly, this is one of the few times I'll side with Bioware on the issue. It was either remove mage class from the game or cook up some unsatisfying scenario where you're able to cast spells in templars faces and people would complain anyway. There is no way to follow the champion's path as a mage in DA2, if you go for realism. You would be instantly arrested and sent to the Circle as soon as you entered Kirkwell. Game over.

or dont desing lore and world rules you cant follow in your own games! 

Modifié par DraCZeQQ, 08 avril 2011 - 10:56 .

[abaris]

Taura-Tierno wrote...

So, if you cannot make a fundamentally different game, you'd have to cut the mage class for realism. That would make the anti-mage part of the game "well-designed", since this particular problem wouldn't exist. But that would hardly be popular.

There's actually a more simple solution: If your environment isn't up to play out in the game, create a different backstory. Its not as if anybody forced them to create a city where mages are fair game. Good concept, good idea, by the way. But if you fail to deliver on that premise, its more than useless.

I for one fail to see the popularity or fun of missing logic.

[TeamVR]

Modifié par TeamVR, 08 avril 2011 - 11:11 .

[CaolIla]

the problem is: if you establish rules in a fantasy world then you should follow them. If you ignore them for effect ("We cut their tongues out" Sten the man about qunari mages), laziness or gameplay (Topic) then that's just a reason to not take game seriously.
A fantasy world doesn't imply that "everything is possible" and nothing makes sense, but different rules from ours that are still being followed.
Maybe it's more fun to let all Characters fly? I don't know but if they do it, they should at least come up with some stupid explanation (gravitational Sickness of the planet sounds stupid and easy enough to be put in a tight EA/Bioware schedule Oo).

[abnocte]

wowpwnslol wrote...

BG2 and DA2 are very different in regards to magic.

In the first game, the Cowled Wizards are not actually looking to restrict magic - they are just trying to get you to cough up the gold for their "magic license". It's legalized extortion basically.

In DA2, you're surrounded by a legion of religious zealots who see maleficar at every turn. Mages are confined to a tower, pretty much like prisoners. These guys don't want a bribe - they just want to lock you up. The only way to survive as a free mage is to go into hiding.

Honestly, this is one of the few times I'll side with Bioware on the issue. It was either remove mage class from the game or cook up some unsatisfying scenario where you're able to cast spells in templars faces and people would complain anyway. There is no way to follow the champion's path as a mage in DA2, if you go for realism. You would be instantly arrested and sent to the Circle as soon as you entered Kirkwell. Game over.

In DA2 it was as simple as restricting combat to:

- inside buildings with no witnesses.
  Casting spells inside The hanged man = bad.
  Casting spells inside wherehouse#233 = ok.

- down the sewers. I got the feeling that people there won't be willing to go face to face with any kind of authority,  they are either people with shifty business or the poorest of the poor...

- outside Kirkwall. No templars or guards on route there, except for Cullen in that mission....

Since magic is forbidden in DA world, and a player that chooses to play as a mage will always be an Apostate, developers should consider adding a melee tree ( staff ) for mages. The animations are already ingame.

An Apostate should be able to defend him/herself from shifty people with something else besides magic to avoid people reporting him/her. After all mass murder of witnesses will draw attention anyway....

[Sabriana]

It wasn't fan expectation that established the lore/rules/backstory, it was the game design/creation team. It established in books (real ones), in-game lore, and game-play, without any input from the fans.

When they start playing fast and lose with their own established rule(s), then there is definitely something wrong. Not only are they ignoring or outright thumping their noses at their own creation, they aren't even consistent within the game.

A contingent of templars go all the way to the dalish because of the previously established backstory/rule/lore, but they utterly fail to recognize an illegal and active criminal (smuggler) apostate in the early game.

If you brainstorm for a story to be told in your video game universe, and someone brings out a story idea that completely messes with your previously established and adhered to game universe, then please, have the intelligence to say "No, can't do. Next idea."

[TeamVR]

CaolIla wrote...

the problem is: if you establish rules in a fantasy world then you should follow them. If you ignore them for effect, laziness or gameplay (Topic) then that's just a reason to not take game seriously.

^This is what it all boils down to. No matter how you feel about the issue, if the developers specificly create a city where mages are hunted and prosecuted, it only makes sense to AT LEAST acknowledge that if the player is a mage. They made the rules, not us. 

Or as Sebriana said:

It wasn't fan expectation that established the lore/rules/backstory, it was the game design/creation team. It established in books (real ones), in-game lore, and game-play, without any input from the fans.

Modifié par TeamVR, 08 avril 2011 - 11:38 .

[Akka le Vil]

-Skorpious- wrote...

What many fail to realize is that older games were easier to make, thus, more resources could be pooled into atmospheric encounters like the one described above.

Older games had a fraction of today's games budget, so your argument is nullified.

[Yrkoon]

astrallite wrote...

LeBurns wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Right.  Forgotten in all this is how, in BG2, you could go straight to the government district and purchase a casting  licence allowing you to cast spells  openly.  You could also fight the cowled wizards and after 5 fights with them, they leave you alone for the rest of the game.

They could easily have done this in DA2, but what would be the point?

Well the point would be that it would kinda make sense.  Is that not even allowed in RPG's anymore?

It's not allowed in Bioware games according to Yrkoon.

What?

[Taura-Tierno]

abaris wrote...

Taura-Tierno wrote...

So, if you cannot make a fundamentally different game, you'd have to cut the mage class for realism. That would make the anti-mage part of the game "well-designed", since this particular problem wouldn't exist. But that would hardly be popular.

There's actually a more simple solution: If your environment isn't up to play out in the game, create a different backstory. Its not as if anybody forced them to create a city where mages are fair game. Good concept, good idea, by the way. But if you fail to deliver on that premise, its more than useless.

I for one fail to see the popularity or fun of missing logic.

That would feel like a cheap way to do it. It would work ... but it would still feel like such an obvious plot device, and then Bioware would've gotten a dozen hate threads for implementing such a thing. And such a thing would still be a stretch, since most templars would consider it treason if another templar knew about an apostate and did nothing.

I'm definitely all for a legitimate reason for being a mage, but in that case, I want the reason to work really well. Hopefully though, the problem won't exist at all, on the same level, in future installments.

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

They could've made something like GTA's "Stars". Kill a templar - +1 star. Show Fenryiel's father you're a mage - +1 star. Run with Merrill all the time - +1 star. Give Samson some dough to grease palms - -1 star. Collect all (or some) of them 5 (10, 50, 100?) stars and templars take your stuff (or your life), Bethany goes *that place*, and you have some problems maybe (Orsino's line of quests closed). That actually would work for any character class, not only the mage, cause you will want to have mages in your group and you could get some "Apostatepoints" that way. A maximum of those points could resolve in discovering blood magic spec or simple death by execution (or Hawke is made tranquil and every line in the game will forever be - "ORDER DICTATES", even when you get laid with Anders).

Modifié par DamnThoseDisplayNames, 08 avril 2011 - 12:20 .

[LeBurns]

The perfect Templar

[Tripedius]

The thing is at the start of act III Meridith knows your an apostate if your a mage. Also it is implied that Varric bought of the city guards to avoid detection of Anders. Point being (as I can't go any further cause it would be spoilers) that there are hinges in the plot that could have made it possible to be a mage and have the templars react badly to you if you use magic. BW made the encounters and could have tailormade those encouters to fit in with the story. Like mostly at night or indoors (and most combat in act 1 is). Some templars even have reason to let you use your magic. You're helping them. There could even have been a storyline in which you could blackmail certain persons with their secrets to keep yours (Keran, Meridith, Magistrate X, Vicount).

In all in all I see many possibilities to make it more believable and not in a cowled wizard kind of way.

[Sabriana]

Tripedius wrote...

The thing is at the start of act III Meridith knows your an apostate if your a mage. Also it is implied that Varric bought of the city guards to avoid detection of Anders. Point being (as I can't go any further cause it would be spoilers) that there are hinges in the plot that could have made it possible to be a mage and have the templars react badly to you if you use magic. BW made the encounters and could have tailormade those encouters to fit in with the story. Like mostly at night or indoors (and most combat in act 1 is). Some templars even have reason to let you use your magic. You're helping them. There could even have been a storyline in which you could blackmail certain persons with their secrets to keep yours (Keran, Meridith, Magistrate X, Vicount).

In all in all I see many possibilities to make it more believable and not in a cowled wizard kind of way.

True enough. There was a thread around the forum(s) earlier where people had some good ideas as well as far as BioWare incorporating *their* lore into *their* story. It's possible. It's a stretch, but at least it would be some kind of explanation instead of the "let's do it, they won't notice" approach.

I mean, even a script ignoramus like I am can attach a gc script to a pixel person. If...pc is mage...then. Instead, they go so far as having a templar, who knows first-hand, up-close and personal that Hawke is a mage tell her later on that "mages are not like you and me...."

Eh? Say what? That's just not acceptable.

[Greenishio]

I really would like some sort of penalty (maybe not too annoying for the player) for using magic openly. It just doesn't make much sense to me otherwise.

[Mantaal]

Taura-Tierno wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Taura-Tierno wrote...

I'm all for removing the Blood Mage spec for the sake of realism, since ordinary people seem prone to not report mages, but blood mages is something different ...  

But casting ordinary spells should also attract the templars very quickly. I wouldn't want them to remove the mage class for the sake of realism, though. Sure, they could've thrown in some minor explanation for why Hawke isn't apprehended, but short of being a gray warden there doesn't seem to be a reason for a mage to be allowed to walk freely, not in Kirkwall, so it just feels like any such explanation would've felt pretty empty. So therefore, I don't really mind that particular lack of realism, because I'd rather have the mages. 

I still didn't find those encounters in BG2 realistic. The first few, sure. But after a while, you'd think the Cowled Wizads would start sending more soldiers and more wizards, to the point of overwhelming the protagonist. Feels like that would've happened in the Athkatla. But in a game, it wouldn't work, because it would kind of break the game to introduce unbeatable battles that cannot be avoided. The same goes for DA2, in my opinion. If the templars should care about Hawke casting spells, then they should care to the point of either driving him to flee Kirkwall, or dying, or being captured.

Just hacking away at a few templars every now and then would feel even more unrealistic, so I'd rather they skip out on the entire subject. 

Yes, it would have been great with some solid, perfectly logical reason for Hawke not to be apprehended. But I can still sacrifice some realism for an important piece of gameplay (the mage class). 

Well, then don't get yourself in that position.
Avoiding fights with templars unless absolutely necessary is only logical for an apostate.

If you're complaining that actively fighting templars eventually leads to the player being overwhlmed..really.. You might as well complain that if Hawke declared war on the whole world, he should be able to win, cause loosing isn't fun....

Realistically, it would be impossible for an apostate Hawke to not get in that position, unless he's just supposed to stand around and do nothing. All other apostates seem to be pretty good at laying low, not running around using magic everywhere. Not being able to actually use magic in battles would make the game unplayable for a mage Hawke. Or at least turn it into a fundamentally different game, since you'd have to change pretty much every quest, which I suppose comes down to time and money. I mean, not even DA:O had a different game for mages. Or for the different Origins at all, just an hour's worth of different content at the start of the game.

So, if you cannot make a fundamentally different game, you'd have to cut the mage class for realism. That would make the anti-mage part of the game "well-designed", since this particular problem wouldn't exist. But that would hardly be popular.

Did you play Vampire: Bloodlines?
They had a playable Clan called Nosferatu. Those Vamps are so ugly they cant interact with other Peoples very well. You have to move under the city in the sewers where other Vampires just move along the street. In one Quest you have to ask some Older Woman about a Girl you looking for.
She is getting an heart attack if you do that with an Nosfertu

Here you could simply say "Well that would make an Nosferatu unplayable. But its not. its quite fun to play one and hiding from the civilians, trying to find other ways that the "normal" ones to reach your goals.

In DA2 it would be even easyer since 90% of the battles are not right under the Templers noses. In whole Kirkwall at night you will see Templars very rare. All outdoor places, quest where you fighting against Templars anyways would also not count in. ("hey we want to kill you but now you did cast Magic Spells! We gona kill you twice!" ) ^^
In the Dark city is no Templer around, in all those copy pasted Maps yove bin in 1000 times is no Templar.

Modifié par Mantaal, 08 avril 2011 - 12:46 .

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

But after a while, you'd think the Cowled Wizads would start sending more soldiers and more wizards, to the point of overwhelming the protagonist

Which actually happens. After a while, the Headquarters with Imprisonment and Time Stop spells will come after you. If it's your first time playing game, believe me, you'll be f-worded. After you slay them, cowled wizards attack will stop.
And if your reputation is extremely low, some Radiant Heart paladins will come (Sir Somethings) who are pretty tough, too.

[Fieryeel]

I remember this quest in Act 1 where Thrask wants me to go into a cave to convince Decimus and other blood mages to surrender.

*Hawke mage, Merrill, Anders and Varric approaches Decimus*
Decimus: Look, templars!
*We look around, confused*
Hawke: What-
Decimus: Kill the templars!

[DraCZeQQ]

Mantaal wrote...

Did you play Vampire: Bloodlines?
They had a playable Clan called Nosferatu. Those Vamps are so ugly they cant interact with other Peoples very well. You have to move under the city in the sewers where other Vampires just move along the street. In one Quest you have to ask some Older Woman about a Girl you looking for.
She is getting an heart attack if you do that with an Nosfertu

Here you could simply say "Well that would make an Nosferatu unplayable. But its not. its quite fun to play one and hiding from the civilians, trying to find other ways that the "normal" ones to reach your goals.

In DA2 it would be even easyer since 90% of the battles are not right under the Templers noses. In whole Kirkwall at night you will see Templars very rare. All outdoor places, quest where you fighting against Templars anyways would also not count in. ("hey we want to kill you but now you did cast Magic Spells! We gona kill you twice!" ) ^^
In the Dark city is no Templer around, in all those copy pasted Maps yove bin in 1000 times is no Templar.

Yea but Vampire: Bloodlines is one of the best RPG  and DA2 is just attempt of EA to see what Bioware fans are able to digest and still buy the game ...

[Lotion Soronarr]

Taura-Tierno wrote...
Realistically, it would be impossible for an apostate Hawke to not get in that position, unless he's just supposed to stand around and do nothing. All other apostates seem to be pretty good at laying low, not running around using magic everywhere. Not being able to actually use magic in battles would make the game unplayable for a mage Hawke. Or at least turn it into a fundamentally different game, since you'd have to change pretty much every quest, which I suppose comes down to time and money. I mean, not even DA:O had a different game for mages. Or for the different Origins at all, just an hour's worth of different content at the start of the game.

So, if you cannot make a fundamentally different game, you'd have to cut the mage class for realism. That would make the anti-mage part of the game "well-designed", since this particular problem wouldn't exist. But that would hardly be popular.

Pftt..One doesn't have to remove mages from the game..just add the apostate experience to the game.

Pick your party depending on where you go.
Put more quests in secluded areas.
Have mages be abel to use their saffs in melee wihout magic.

A mage Hawke doesn't have to "do nothing" - he just has to be carefull where and when he uses magic. Does that mean there would be areas where mages couldn't use their full potential? Yes. Sucks? Well that's hte story.

I find it redicolous that peopel want to RP and experience teh life of na apostate..only tehy want to remvoe anything that eve nslightlčy inconveniences them.


Point is - you can make templar avoidance/bribery PART of the game...with good game design.

[Lotion Soronarr]

wowpwnslol wrote...

BG2 and DA2 are very different in regards to magic.

In the first game, the Cowled Wizards are not actually looking to restrict magic - they are just trying to get you to cough up the gold for their "magic license". It's legalized extortion basically.

In DA2, you're surrounded by a legion of religious zealots who see maleficar at every turn. Mages are confined to a tower, pretty much like prisoners. These guys don't want a bribe - they just want to lock you up. The only way to survive as a free mage is to go into hiding.

Honestly, this is one of the few times I'll side with Bioware on the issue. It was either remove mage class from the game or cook up some unsatisfying scenario where you're able to cast spells in templars faces and people would complain anyway. There is no way to follow the champion's path as a mage in DA2, if you go for realism. You would be instantly arrested and sent to the Circle as soon as you entered Kirkwell. Game over.

Wrong. Tehre is a way. More than one.
You jsut have no creativity.

I cna think of several ways at the top of my head.

And a game over if you fail to hide well enough? Why not? You get a game over when you fall in battle - why should a comabt faliure be the only kind of possible faliure?

[Alex Kershaw]

It's simply dreadful game design from the very core. If you're going to focus the entire game on how poorly mages are treated in a certain city state, it's simply ridiculous to base the entire game in that city, make 90% of the gameplay combat and make 1/3 of the players use mage, with 2/3 of those players using blood magic.

[Lux]

Well... while they were at it with some pretty substantial changes, why not add to the lore? Hawke being a licensed "free" mage due to being naturally impervious to spirit domination (a rare occurrence in the world of Thedas) would've made more sense than to ignore the established lore.

[DraCZeQQ]

Merkar wrote...

Hawke being a licensed "free" mage due to being naturally impervious to spirit domination (a rare occurrence in the world of Thedas) would've made more sense than to ignore the established lore.

Blood mage Merrill? Rogue GW Anders? ... not to mention this kind of "lore" sounds really cheesy and i must agree with Bioware decision here "better to hope no one will notice, then announce it in cheesy way" =)