1072 réponses à ce sujet

[Torax]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Torax wrote...

Regardless this thread was because he was shut down in another thread when Gaider said she could enact the right since the Grand Cleric was killed.

Except the fact that the Divine was requested to give Meredith the authority to grant the Right of Annulment wasn't addressed in that thread, as the OP stated.

Torax wrote...

P.S. I didn't ever even say she should have done it. I have never even sided with Meredith. So go bother with some "Guilty evil lady" diatribe in some other thread.

I never claimed you said Meredith should have enacted the Right, I said that I doubt the Chantry or the Divine would care about the legality of the Right based on what Leliana says in "Faith."

All Gaider said was about the situation is that once the Grand Cleric was dead Meredith was within her Rights to enact said Annulment herself. So this player here tried to say that a loop hole stops her. Gaider dissagrees. That makes this subject dead. You come in after the fact in an attempt to continue said arugment and even bring quotes out of context to a degree to continue an argument from antoher thread really that has no place here.

Polaris was proven wrong as would you in what you have said

"Except the fact that the Divine was requested to give Meredith the authority to grant the Right of Annulment wasn't addressed in that thread, as the OP stated."

And that was addressed and Gaider basically proved that as irrelevent. So let me ask you this. Why are you here if not to attempt to prove somethign wrong that was proven not relevent to the her being able to do such a thing. Besides to paint meredith more evil. Especially if you are quoting posts from others out of context to try and support something completely irrelevent to why Polaris made the thread.

You agreeing with Polaris does not make it right or important. Plus she's dead. Get over it.

[LobselVith8]

Torax wrote...

It was irrelevent to the conversation that was going on at the time. Stop scrolling through posts from so long ago that weren't even directed at you. It was the OP trying to side step and use excuses to evade everything but the topic he was trying to use to claim there was no legal cause to enact the Right of Annulment despite Gaider saying she could in another thread.

"So long ago"? This thread was made a few hours ago at best. I'm welcome to give my opinion on the matter and what people have said just as you are.

Torax wrote...

That player was saying that the other circle case didn't have anythign do with this one. Because Polaris was attempting to make it sound like Gregoir couldn't enact it yet that situation was supposedly more "dire" than the one in Kirkwall. It was him trying to evade and use a past case that doesn't fit this one at all.

Ian addressed the factor of Meredith requesting the Right of Annulment from the Divine based on caselaw, and is providing an opinion on the issue.

Torax wrote...

Just leave the thread if you weren't there for it don't try to change the topics now to just make Meredith a villain. No one was painting her a hero. You are just trying to turn this into a completely different topic. There is another thread for that already. Go there and leave this one alone.

"Just leave"? Would you be asking me to leave if I was acting in a condescending manner to the OP as you are doing now? I'm welcome to articulate my opinion on Meredith and the Right of Annulment, as they are part of the OP, just as much as you are.

[Musou1776]

I don't understand the disbelief that that rite of annulment would be lawful. The Inquisition was lawful under the secular and ecclesiastical law of Spain and other Catholic monarchies. This is the same kind of thing. The religious/political order agrees that mages are bad, specific police powers are given to a paramilitary organization with the responsibility to prevent mages from getting out of hand, mages get out of hand, organization acts by implementing a plan that has an official name to it that was designed for just such an eventuality. What is not legal about it?

[Torax]

IanPolaris wrote...

Torax,

The question of legality is a very important one actually and it's clear that DG want's Meridith's action to be legal no matter what so I should have guessed at what he'd say. It's very important because it touches on the crux of why all the circles rebelled. It just got proven in the crudest possible way that mages have no rights and no safeguards under the Chantry, and their very lives exist soley on the whims of Knight Commanders that have little if any oversight.

It's the lack of oversight that's a critical aspect here. DG's posts making Meridith's actions legal actually make the Templars look worse, not better.

-Polaris

You do not know the Laws and neither do I. So don't try to hold some "Legality" as a shield when it doesn't matter. It was you trying to make Gaider look flawed or wrong like he had an oversite. He did not. The character DIES no matter what. So it doesn't matter if she was right or wrong. You do realize that her goal would have been to kill all the enemies and then claim she was right since she'd have left no witnesses. But that didn't work out for her.

You are beating a dead horse to stroke an ego for beating a writer from bioware. It has no weight. You have no backing beyond a theory from a letter. That is all you have. It has no importance in the plot or the results of it. it just you attempt to make Gaider look wrong and you failed.

[LobselVith8]

Torax wrote...

All Gaider said was about the situation is that once the Grand Cleric was dead Meredith was within her Rights to enact said Annulment herself. So this player here tried to say that a loop hole stops her. Gaider dissagrees. That makes this subject dead.

I don't read how the OP is contesting this in the OP. The factor of asking permission from the Divine was being addressed.

Torax wrote...

You come in after the fact in an attempt to continue said arugment and even bring quotes out of context to a degree to continue an argument from antoher thread really that has no place here.

Nothing was brought up out of context. You simply seem more interested in attacking the OP than in debating the issues.

Torax wrote...

And that was addressed and Gaider basically proved that as irrelevent. So let me ask you this. Why are you here if not to attempt to prove somethign wrong that was proven not relevent to the her being able to do such a thing. Besides to paint meredith more evil.

Your attempts to command me to leave because I refuse to adhere to your viewpoint aren't of any interest to me.

Torax wrote...

Especially if you are quoting posts from others out of context to try and support something completely irrelevent to why Polaris made the thread.

Nothing I was addressing was posted out of context.

Torax wrote...

You agreeing with Polaris does not make it right or important. Plus she's dead. Get over it.

Did you even bother reading what I wrote, or are you simply attacking me because I'm not attacking Ian over the OP?

[Torax]

Musou1776 wrote...

I don't understand the disbelief that that rite of annulment would be lawful. The Inquisition was lawful under the secular and ecclesiastical law of Spain and other Catholic monarchies. This is the same kind of thing. The religious/political order agrees that mages are bad, specific police powers are given to a paramilitary organization with the responsibility to prevent mages from getting out of hand, mages get out of hand, organization acts by implementing a plan that has an official name to it that was designed for just such an eventuality. What is not legal about it?

Just players trying to prove they have an upper hand over the developers. Like the "I cut off leliana's head but she is in the game" or "I killed Ogren but he is alive now." from Awaekening.

[Darth Krytie]

Musou1776 wrote...

I don't understand the disbelief that that rite of annulment would be lawful. The Inquisition was lawful under the secular and ecclesiastical law of Spain and other Catholic monarchies. This is the same kind of thing. The religious/political order agrees that mages are bad, specific police powers are given to a paramilitary organization with the responsibility to prevent mages from getting out of hand, mages get out of hand, organization acts by implementing a plan that has an official name to it that was designed for just such an eventuality. What is not legal about it?

Aside from the OP's pathological inability to accept that he is wrong, there's no real basis to disbelieve Meredith legally had the authority to invoke the Right of Annulment.

Just because the Knight Commander is second to the Grand Cleric should she die in this particular instant, it does not mean the Knight Commander succeeds her in all things. 

[LobselVith8]

Torax wrote...

noneofyourbussines77 wrote...

Does any of this matter? What difference does it make if Meredith was acting illegaly?

It's Polaris trying to prove Gaider wrong. It's all it is.

For a debate over whether Meredith asking for permission from the Divine calls into question the legality of the Right of Annulment, you seem to be taking this very personally.

[Torax]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Torax wrote...

All Gaider said was about the situation is that once the Grand Cleric was dead Meredith was within her Rights to enact said Annulment herself. So this player here tried to say that a loop hole stops her. Gaider dissagrees. That makes this subject dead.

I don't read how the OP is contesting this in the OP. The factor of asking permission from the Divine was being addressed.

Torax wrote...

You come in after the fact in an attempt to continue said arugment and even bring quotes out of context to a degree to continue an argument from antoher thread really that has no place here.

Nothing was brought up out of context. You simply seem more interested in attacking the OP than in debating the issues.

Torax wrote...

And that was addressed and Gaider basically proved that as irrelevent. So let me ask you this. Why are you here if not to attempt to prove somethign wrong that was proven not relevent to the her being able to do such a thing. Besides to paint meredith more evil.

Your attempts to command me to leave because I refuse to adhere to your viewpoint aren't of any interest to me.

Torax wrote...

Especially if you are quoting posts from others out of context to try and support something completely irrelevent to why Polaris made the thread.

Nothing I was addressing was posted out of context.

Torax wrote...

You agreeing with Polaris does not make it right or important. Plus she's dead. Get over it.

Did you even bother reading what I wrote, or are you simply attacking me because I'm not attacking Ian over the OP?

You started to take out snippets without also why they were being said in an effort to support from 3-4 hours ago a topic that has long since died. That is all you are doing. It is over. mourn and get over it.

[sphinxess]

Musou1776 wrote...

I don't understand the disbelief that that rite of annulment would be lawful. The Inquisition was lawful under the secular and ecclesiastical law of Spain and other Catholic monarchies. This is the same kind of thing. The religious/political order agrees that mages are bad, specific police powers are given to a paramilitary organization with the responsibility to prevent mages from getting out of hand, mages get out of hand, organization acts by implementing a plan that has an official name to it that was designed for just such an eventuality. What is not legal about it?

It came from how the codex was worded - the Chantry has the authority to call for the Right of Annulment - most assumed if the Grand Cleric died the Right would remain in the Chantry bleh bleh bleh. Page 10-12 in the other thread is where DG stopped by for a visit. DG made it clear that when the Grand Cleric dies the Right of Annulment goes to the Knight-Commander.

Modifié par sphinxess, 08 avril 2011 - 04:45 .

[Torax]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Torax wrote...

noneofyourbussines77 wrote...

Does any of this matter? What difference does it make if Meredith was acting illegaly?

It's Polaris trying to prove Gaider wrong. It's all it is.

For a debate over whether Meredith asking for permission from the Divine calls into question the legality of the Right of Annulment, you seem to be taking this very personally.

I'm not taking it personally. You are making a topic that was done and over and trying to make it circular. Otherwise you would have just replied to Gaider's post. Instead you are trying to go after the players. Just saying.

Neither of you have any new standing on the situation. Gaider basically made it irrelevent to the events we see in game. Which is completely true.

[LobselVith8]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

OK, DG has spoken. Not a suprise. Apparently it's important for the story that Meridith be legally in the right. Okaay. Wish I was suprised....... (btw that's not how it works in most normal military/paramilitary orginizations but DG has spoken...)

-Polaris

You expect Chantry law to make sense? It's better this way: the Chantry sees no problem in granting the executioner summary authority over life and death in the absence of the party that would normally be responsible. It pleases me that the Chantry allows such injustice. It's one more mark against the whole institution.

No one should be surprised that genocide is legal by Chantry law, even when the mages are innocent of the crime they're going to be executed for.

[LobselVith8]

Torax wrote...

You started to take out snippets without also why they were being said in an effort to support from 3-4 hours ago a topic that has long since died. That is all you are doing. It is over. mourn and get over it.

By snippets, you mean I quoted the person and addressed what they said?

By dead, you mean that people were still discussing the issues hours after Gaider posted?

So far, I don't find what you're saying to be factually accurate.

Torax wrote...

I'm not taking it personally. You are making a topic that was done and over and trying to make it circular. Otherwise you would have just replied to Gaider's post.

You seem to be taking it personally, based on the tone you've taken with the OP and the people who disagree with you. I never contested the legality of the Right of Annulment, but I addressed it was Ian's right to consider if it was legal or not based on our own caselaw. You seem to take offense at that, and I don't understand why.

Torax wrote...

Instead you are trying to go after the players. Just saying.

Again, you seem to be taking this disagreement very personally. I'm friends with people who disagree with me. I don't think people are evil incarnate if they dare to disagree with me on issues. This is a fictional universe that we are discussing, after all. And if I respond to what someone says, it's because I have something to say. This isn't a thread that's months old - it's a couple of hours old. All I did was respond to what the people said - which, again, is the purpose behind a reply.

Torax wrote...

Neither of you have any new standing on the situation. Gaider basically made it irrelevent to the events we see in game. Which is completely true.

Yes, genocide is legal by Chantry law. There's no issue in murdering men, women, and children for something they had nothing to do with. Of course, there are the three mages Cullen spares, but I wonder what happens to them...

David Gaider wrote...

The issue is this:

By the time the Right of Annulment is invoked, the tower in question has moved beyond the possibility of mages being brought under control enough that Tranquility would even be possible. It's possible some mages might survive the initial assault, but the order cannot be "take any prisoners you can" simply because by that point a mage might have been corrupted and become a blood mage... something which cannot be detected under normal circumstances. Thus capturing them becomes a means for them to escape the quarantine.

So therefore the order is "kill everyone". At the end of the day, if any mages are still alive for whatever reason... then, yes, I imagine they could theroretically be made Tranquil as opposed to executed outright.

So the three mages who were spared can look forward to the Rite of Tranquility...

Modifié par LobselVith8, 08 avril 2011 - 05:03 .

[Torax]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

OK, DG has spoken. Not a suprise. Apparently it's important for the story that Meridith be legally in the right. Okaay. Wish I was suprised....... (btw that's not how it works in most normal military/paramilitary orginizations but DG has spoken...)

-Polaris

You expect Chantry law to make sense? It's better this way: the Chantry sees no problem in granting the executioner summary authority over life and death in the absence of the party that would normally be responsible. It pleases me that the Chantry allows such injustice. It's one more mark against the whole institution.

No one should be surprised that genocide is legal by Chantry law, even when the mages are innocent of the crime they're going to be executed for.

The Chantry did kind of take so much land by force. To a point so many of them wanting to crush all their enemies. I'm not sure which is more dangerous. I think people would be better off with the Dalish or the Qunari. At least in those societies everyone eats and is more equal. Tevinter and the Chantry leave so many S.O.L.

[Torax]

Lob why do you post like this.

For example when you took Benchmark's post from page one. You then remove the quote he had of Polaris trying to call someone's reply irrelevent and then you go and remove his opener that refers to that. Then you take snippiets of his entire post to attempt to rip it apart. Why not just show the entire post instead of trying to dissect just the things that support your case and not the others?

By the way cause you are really just trying to make more of a villain out of Meredith. Gaider never said she was right or wrong. Even goes as far as to say she'd have probably been punished or worse for her actions. Yet you beat the dead horse. Yes her use of it is not MORAL. But when is a zealot ever really moral. Especially one so extreme as to refer to all magic as a "Curse". If you think us just not in agreement of said "loop hole" as automatically being in support of Meredith? You are just sad.

Modifié par Torax, 08 avril 2011 - 05:04 .

[LobselVith8]

Torax wrote...

Lob why do you post like this.

For example when you took Benchmark's post from page one. You then remove the quote he had of Polaris trying to call someone's reply irrelevent and then you go and remove his opener that refers to that.

I was addressing Benchmark, and responded to Benchmark with different points to explain why some people took offense to what Meredith did when she invoked the Right of Annulment, since it's part of the OP.

Torax wrote...

Then you take snippiets of his entire post to attempt to rip it apart. Why not just show the entire post instead of trying to dissect just the things that support your case and not the others?

I'd rather address specific points one at a time.

Torax wrote...

By the way cause you are really just trying to make more of a villain out of Meredith. Gaider never said she was right or wrong.

You mean, by bringing up that she condemns innocent people to die for something they didn't do?

Torax wrote...

Even goes as far as to say she'd have probably been punished or worse for her actions. Yet you beat the dead horse. Yes her use of it is not MORAL. But when is a zealot ever really moral. Especially one so extreme as to refer to all magic as a "Curse". If you think us just not in agreement of said "loop hole" as automatically being in support of Meredith? You are just sad.

Why are you taking this so personally? You're acting like Meredith is a real person instead of a fictional character. I'm within my rights to find her actions repellant.

[Torax]

Except that none of the points are part of this thread. Per Polaris' opinion cause he was discarding them for the most part since they didn't support his "Legal Argument" of opinion. So why argue it still if it has no part to support that Letter topic. Unless you just want to paint her more of a villain when no one seems to think she isn't one.

Modifié par Torax, 08 avril 2011 - 05:17 .

[LobselVith8]

Torax wrote...

Except that none of the points are part of this thread. Per Polaris' opinion cause he was discarding them for the most part since they didn't support his "Legal Argument" of opinion. So why argue it still if it has no part to support that Letter topic. Unless you just want to paint her more of a villain when no one seems to think she isn't one.

The Right of Annulment is part of the OP, actually.

[IanPolaris]

Torax wrote...

The Chantry did kind of take so much land by force. To a point so many of them wanting to crush all their enemies. I'm not sure which is more dangerous. I think people would be better off with the Dalish or the Qunari. At least in those societies everyone eats and is more equal. Tevinter and the Chantry leave so many S.O.L.

The Chantry never took the northern realm by force (well except retaking Rivvain and that was such a bloodbath, the veil was torn).  The people in these realms revolted (or adopted in the case of Tevinter) in favor of the Chantry long ago.

The Chantry conqured in the South (Orlais, Fereldan, Nevarra) but not the north.

-Polaris

[Torax]

IanPolaris wrote...

Torax wrote...

The Chantry did kind of take so much land by force. To a point so many of them wanting to crush all their enemies. I'm not sure which is more dangerous. I think people would be better off with the Dalish or the Qunari. At least in those societies everyone eats and is more equal. Tevinter and the Chantry leave so many S.O.L.

The Chantry never took the northern realm by force (well except retaking Rivvain and that was such a bloodbath, the veil was torn).  The people in these realms revolted (or adopted in the case of Tevinter) in favor of the Chantry long ago.

The Chantry conqured in the South (Orlais, Fereldan, Nevarra) but not the north.

-Polaris

I never said they took every where. But the did get a ton of land. Tevinter had so much of it afterall.

[1Nosphorus1]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Torax wrote...

noneofyourbussines77 wrote...

Does any of this matter? What difference does it make if Meredith was acting illegaly?

It's Polaris trying to prove Gaider wrong. It's all it is.

For a debate over whether Meredith asking for permission from the Divine calls into question the legality of the Right of Annulment, you seem to be taking this very personally.

Yes I noticed this as I read through the topic, and predicted an ending.

A dev shows up and immediately he turned into a zealot fan of DG proclaiming love and all sorts (He has enough of those followers ya know, the ones who need to remove head from arse).

I think rather than him replying to DG in another thread, it would've rendered his point moot since it's took several pages for half of the forum to actually get on the same wavelength.

[Morgora]

IanPolaris wrote...
What I am saying, however, is we have new information that wasn't talked about when DG made his statements and you can not assume he considered them.  The Fact is Meridith specifically consulted and requested the intervention of the Divine on Appeal.  THAT limits her authority because she is obligated to wait for an answer unless the situation with regard to the circle (the only thing that matters for a Rite of Annulment) changes....and it didn't.

-Polaris

While the Knight-Commander may have been required to wait, the "new Grand Cleric" does not have to wait. The Knight-Commander made the request to the Divine. The "new Grand Cleric" did not make such a request. Therefore, Meredith, acting as the "new Grand Cleric", had the legal authority to enact the Right of Annulment.

[IanPolaris]

Morgora wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
What I am saying, however, is we have new information that wasn't talked about when DG made his statements and you can not assume he considered them.  The Fact is Meridith specifically consulted and requested the intervention of the Divine on Appeal.  THAT limits her authority because she is obligated to wait for an answer unless the situation with regard to the circle (the only thing that matters for a Rite of Annulment) changes....and it didn't.

-Polaris

While the Knight-Commander may have been required to wait, the "new Grand Cleric" does not have to wait. The Knight-Commander made the request to the Divine. The "new Grand Cleric" did not make such a request. Therefore, Meredith, acting as the "new Grand Cleric", had the legal authority to enact the Right of Annulment.

Except Meridith is not the new Grand Cleric.  DG only said that this particular authority fell to her.  At no time does a Templar officer become a member of the chantry at least in the Dragon Age universe I am familiar with.  DG said t was legal apparently because it's important for the story for her actions to be (just barely) legal.

-Polaris

[AshenEndymion]

IanPolaris wrote...

Morgora wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
What I am saying, however, is we have new information that wasn't talked about when DG made his statements and you can not assume he considered them.  The Fact is Meridith specifically consulted and requested the intervention of the Divine on Appeal.  THAT limits her authority because she is obligated to wait for an answer unless the situation with regard to the circle (the only thing that matters for a Rite of Annulment) changes....and it didn't.

-Polaris

While the Knight-Commander may have been required to wait, the "new Grand Cleric" does not have to wait. The Knight-Commander made the request to the Divine. The "new Grand Cleric" did not make such a request. Therefore, Meredith, acting as the "new Grand Cleric", had the legal authority to enact the Right of Annulment.

Except Meridith is not the new Grand Cleric.  DG only said that this particular authority fell to her.  At no time does a Templar officer become a member of the chantry at least in the Dragon Age universe I am familiar with.  DG said t was legal apparently because it's important for the story for her actions to be (just barely) legal.

-Polaris

Because KC Meredith has the authority to act as the Grand Cleric(ie approve of the Right of Annulment) it does, by definition, make her acting Grand Cleric.  She's obviously not going to be Grand Cleric permanently.  But until the new Grand Cleric arrives, Meredith is it (and when she died, that authority fell to the new Knight Commander -- Cullen).

[Morgora]

IanPolaris wrote...
Except Meridith is not the new Grand Cleric.  DG only said that this particular authority fell to her.  At no time does a Templar officer become a member of the chantry at least in the Dragon Age universe I am familiar with.  DG said t was legal apparently because it's important for the story for her actions to be (just barely) legal.

-Polaris

The Templars are the military arm of the Chantry. This makes all Templars members of the Chantry.