1072 réponses à ce sujet

[Torax]

PantheraOnca wrote...

Torax wrote...

When Tevinter destroyed Arlathan they took all the knowledge they could from the Elves as well as the knowledge they had arleady learned supposedly from the Old Gods. So their knowledge on magic is the most greatest of any of the currently know groups. While even the current magisters may have lost some or their older magical knowledge. The current Circle's magic most likely is weak compared to Tevinter's Magisters. Especially the current Archon. They have old and Ancient knowledge of Magic. So it is possible they could summon demons and abominations without becoming one themselves. As a nation they have been studying it for thousands of years.

Even when the Imperium was pushed back before it supposedly took a uniting of forces and the powers granted to Andraste to defeat the Imperium. Tales of things like famine and so on that aided them to weaken the Imperium's forces.

I mean, ok? but if abominations can be controlled, then it kind of shoots the whole "BUT THE MAGES WILL KILL THE TOWN WITHOUT MEANING TOOOOOOOOOOO" argument in the head (rather than the foot).

I don't think its that the Magisters know how to handle abominations as much as there just aren't that many abominations there, but I'm basing this off essentially my own speculation.

Aye we also have to just take it as it is that npcs will fear abominations and magic as just towns folk because they don't have armor. Even Templars will fear it because it's things they don't understand. The thought that every mage they watch could become and abomination. Or not even truly understanding what the fade is really like if you are there. It could lead many them to be irrational and willing to follow an order to kill the mages. Plus I'm sure many never saw an Abomination before until then so it would be like seeing a Darkspawn for the first time. Supposedly scary, smelly and so on. We as players are sheltered to what they can animate. NPC's are not that way. They are actually there. We're lucky if a npc even mentions if the room is cold or warm. Let alone what it smells like.

Modifié par Torax, 08 avril 2011 - 10:10 .

[Paeyne]

IanPolaris wrote...

Paeyne wrote...

Typhoid Mary through no fault of her own was a lethal danger to sociey and needed to be contained. 

Mages through possession and no fault of their own can become a lethal danger to society  and need to be contained.

In both cases they are people and need to be treated as such, within the bounds of reasonable protection to

Read the bolded words.  The difference between a known, certain threat (whichTyphoid Mary willfully ignored which makes her culpable) and a possible threat that's never been quantified (only fear-mongered by the Chantry) is all the difference in the world especially when we know that societies can contain any possible danger without locking away mages (because several do just that).

-Polaris

I am sure that the distinction would be a great comfort to the survivors or Redcliffe

[Torax]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Torax wrote...

And what new are you adding to the conversation by mentioning it all? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. it's been a month. Move on really. Even what little bit of new that Polaris started this entire thread with was basically made irrelevent. Just find something new to complain about in the game. If you even still play it.

What's gained from you trying to kick the original poster out of the thread he started, or when you try to order people who have a different opinion than you to discuss something else?

I'm fine with a topic. It's just not really a conversation if all you'll do is go back to something about it being genocide or baby killers instead of talking about say the fear of magic or the dangerous of and things of that nature. While also trying to add things of the outside world into Thedas since that won't fit. But trying to go from Templars may believe something going back to "it's genocide" goes no where. Try to be either cooperative or adding to the argument. Not changing it back to one that was already done pages ago.

[AshenEndymion]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Torax wrote...

We get it okay. You think it is Genocide. You have said the same damn things over and over. Why do you keep doing it then.

It's genocide according to the definition of the word. The Right of Annulment entails murdering the population of the Kirkwall Circle. Regardless of whether it's legal or not (and Gaider already addressed that it was legal), it's still genocide.

I have to say, it's only "genocide" if the mages are people.... Since the mages are weapons, it's not genocide, but rather "disarmament."

[PantheraOnca]

Ashen, you troll so well.

[Torax]

AshenEndemion wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Torax wrote...

We get it okay. You think it is Genocide. You have said the same damn things over and over. Why do you keep doing it then.

It's genocide according to the definition of the word. The Right of Annulment entails murdering the population of the Kirkwall Circle. Regardless of whether it's legal or not (and Gaider already addressed that it was legal), it's still genocide.

I have to say, it's only "genocide" if the mages are people.... Since the mages are weapons, it's not genocide, but rather "disarmament."

Which is the harsher look some would have in Thedas. Player may or may not agree. A warrior can put down their sword. A mage cannot put down their ability without being made tranquil. Which scary enough may not be permanent if a spirit is walking around doing magic I guess. But I digress, some in Thedas will see magic as a true threat. Even the magic users being asleep could pose a threat to those around them. It is the "could" that would get a random citizen scared if they were aware of the threat next door. Some find magic dangerous to them. Some do not. It's not black or white, it's a world of greys. Pun intended.

[asindre]

Wulfram wrote...
The whole circle, including Bethany?  Including the Children?

Ok poor choise of words, I meant most of the circle, and I'm not saying I agree with the annulment. (Which is why I sided with the mages.) I'm saying I can understand why they did it.

  How many people think Merrill should be killed?

That depends on what kind of character I'm playing. My mage Hawke thought so. For him there was no excuse for blood magic.

I judge all Templars because the Templars followed her orders.  Unless Meredith had mind controlling abilities, they are culpable.  And the Right of Annullment, which is a Right to kill children because there's a riot in the prison you put them in, is not something Meredith invented.

They were given an order, Meredith had the law on her side, they had to follow.

[asindre]

AshenEndemion wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Torax wrote...

We get it okay. You think it is Genocide. You have said the same damn things over and over. Why do you keep doing it then.

It's genocide according to the definition of the word. The Right of Annulment entails murdering the population of the Kirkwall Circle. Regardless of whether it's legal or not (and Gaider already addressed that it was legal), it's still genocide.

I have to say, it's only "genocide" if the mages are people.... Since the mages are weapons, it's not genocide, but rather "disarmament."

Mages are people.

[Torax]

asindre wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
I judge all Templars because the Templars followed her orders.  Unless Meredith had mind controlling abilities, they are culpable.  And the Right of Annullment, which is a Right to kill children because there's a riot in the prison you put them in, is not something Meredith invented.

They were given an order, Meredith had the law on her side, they had to follow.

Also in support of following orders. It's also one of those times where one lone Templar wouldn't stand up to her for fear of death. But once Cullen tells her to stand down. The other Templars seem to be in agreement.

[AshenEndymion]

PantheraOnca wrote...

Ashen, you troll so well.

Thank you.

Not that I don't believe what I said.  I do.  Wholeheartedly....  I'm just tired of the whole "Mages are people, it's genocide" being repeated over, and over, and over again with no statement of any real value beyond that....

So I've decided that I'm just going to start replying to the "it's genocide" bits with "it's not genocide, it's disarmament" from now on with no real statement of value beyond that....

[LobselVith8]

Torax wrote...

I'm fine with a topic. It's just not really a conversation if all you'll do is go back to something about it being genocide or baby killers instead of talking about say the fear of magic or the dangerous of and things of that nature.

The thread focuses on Meredith ordering the Right of Annulment as Knight-Commander - the fate of the mages is going to come into play in the discussion as a result.

Torax wrote...

While also trying to add things of the outside world into Thedas since that won't fit. But trying to go from Templars may believe something going back to "it's genocide" goes no where. Try to be either cooperative or adding to the argument. Not changing it back to one that was already done pages ago.

If you want to discuss something other than the genocide of the Circle, feel free to ask me something besides the Right of Annulment. Also, I'm not certain how cooperative you think you're being by trying to kick Ian out of the thread he started.

[Wulfram]

asindre wrote...

They were given an order, Meredith had the law on her side, they had to follow.

Nuremberg disagreed.  

Anyway, they were willing to disobey Meredith's eminently reasonable "Kill the dangerous Apostate who has just slaughtered loads of Templars" order, so they could have disobeyed her "kill the mage kids" order too.

[LobselVith8]

AshenEndemion wrote...

PantheraOnca wrote...

Ashen, you troll so well.

Thank you.

Not that I don't believe what I said.  I do.  Wholeheartedly....  I'm just tired of the whole "Mages are people, it's genocide" being repeated over, and over, and over again with no statement of any real value beyond that....

So I've decided that I'm just going to start replying to the "it's genocide" bits with "it's not genocide, it's disarmament" from now on with no real statement of value beyond that....

The problem is mages are people, and they're being executed for something Anders speciifcally did. That's part of the OP. If you dislike it, why are you posting in this thread when it's part of the OP?

[IanPolaris]

asindre wrote...
They were given an order, Meredith had the law on her side, they had to follow.

Actually they don't and halfway through Cullen doesn't at least once and certainly doesn't at the end.  This question (admittedly IRL but it applies since we are RL people playing the game) was addressed in the Nuremberg Trials.  You are obligated to disobey an immoral order even if it's technically illegal at the time.  Genocide is such a case.  People even today can and are sentenced to prison by the Hague for following :"legal" orders.

-Polaris

[Torax]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Torax wrote...

I'm fine with a topic. It's just not really a conversation if all you'll do is go back to something about it being genocide or baby killers instead of talking about say the fear of magic or the dangerous of and things of that nature.

The thread focuses on Meredith ordering the Right of Annulment as Knight-Commander - the fate of the mages is going to come into play in the discussion as a result.

Torax wrote...

While also trying to add things of the outside world into Thedas since that won't fit. But trying to go from Templars may believe something going back to "it's genocide" goes no where. Try to be either cooperative or adding to the argument. Not changing it back to one that was already done pages ago.

If you want to discuss something other than the genocide of the Circle, feel free to ask me something besides the Right of Annulment. Also, I'm not certain how cooperative you think you're being by trying to kick Ian out of the thread he started.

You keep bringing up this kicking thing. That was from like a day ago and I didn't keep saying that part. You are taking it personal mostly because others also didn't agree with either Ian or you. Move on. Or not if you wish. The sad part is I side with the mages but I also will pay attention to what the characters would think. it's the lack of Ian seeming to accept that and to a point you vicariously unnable to which seems to then paint me as an evil templar lover maybe. Just like Gaider. Just because we don't coddle. We are evil? Meredith had the Authority to do what she did. I never agreed with it. Trying to continue that topic goes no where. We cannot change what happened. So dwelling on it a month later goes no where.

[AshenEndymion]

LobselVith8 wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

PantheraOnca wrote...

Ashen, you troll so well.

Thank you.

Not that I don't believe what I said.  I do.  Wholeheartedly....  I'm just tired of the whole "Mages are people, it's genocide" being repeated over, and over, and over again with no statement of any real value beyond that....

So I've decided that I'm just going to start replying to the "it's genocide" bits with "it's not genocide, it's disarmament" from now on with no real statement of value beyond that....

The problem is mages are people, and they're being executed for something Anders speciifcally did. That's part of the OP. If you dislike it, why are you posting in this thread when it's part of the OP?

Read it again.... The OP is actually about how the order for the Right of Annulment coming from Meredith was illegal.

Not that it was immoral, or wrong, unwarrented, or genocide, or disarmament... That it was ILLEGAL.

Why are you posting in this thread about genocide when that has nothing to do with the OP?

[IanPolaris]

Lob,

Honestly the original point of the thread has been addressed (though the implications esp from the Devs are fascinating in a dark and deeply disturbing way). Meridith will always be legally in the right because the story demands it. I found that out on page 6.

-Polaris

[AngryFrozenWater]

Whether or not the Rite of Annulment is used illegally or not doesn't seem to be important. The game wants to destroy mages, no matter what you decide. There is no way for mages to win and playing one is effectively pointless. It's no longer a matter of black, white or grey. It's clear that when the harvester appears the game wants to betray the player. There is no choice or logic leading to it. It's just bad story telling. But I could be wrong. Maybe it is just there to make the game look cool. Maybe BW tried to walk the thin line between RPG and action game and in this case the brainless hack and slash won. Whatever it is, it's an all time low.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 08 avril 2011 - 10:28 .

[LobselVith8]

Paeyne wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Read the bolded words.  The difference between a known, certain threat (whichTyphoid Mary willfully ignored which makes her culpable) and a possible threat that's never been quantified (only fear-mongered by the Chantry) is all the difference in the world especially when we know that societies can contain any possible danger without locking away mages (because several do just that).

-Polaris

I am sure that the distinction would be a great comfort to the survivors or Redcliffe

Considering the Circle of Magi can be brought in to resolve the dilemma that happened because of the anti-mage ideals of the Chantry that lead to the pious Arlessa Isolde wanting her son to be taught not to be a mage, I'm sure they would have appreciated if there was a better solution than the current system that lead to the deaths of some of the people in Redcliffe.

[Torax]

IanPolaris wrote...

asindre wrote...
They were given an order, Meredith had the law on her side, they had to follow.

Actually they don't and halfway through Cullen doesn't at least once and certainly doesn't at the end.  This question (admittedly IRL but it applies since we are RL people playing the game) was addressed in the Nuremberg Trials.  You are obligated to disobey an immoral order even if it's technically illegal at the time.  Genocide is such a case.  People even today can and are sentenced to prison by the Hague for following :"legal" orders.

-Polaris

Only flaw is things like that real life reference have no place in Thedas. It never happened there. Many do not see mages are beings. They see them as monsters. Just like some view elves are inferior and borderline slaves. Thedas is not a world of equality. Expecting it to be that way goes no where. Like beating ones head against a wall. After a while it's just a head ache that would never go away. Trying to imagine things that are not there in what is know as Thedas.

[LobselVith8]

AshenEndemion wrote...

Read it again.... The OP is actually about how the order for the Right of Annulment coming from Meredith was illegal.

Yes, the OP focused on the Right of Annulment, and the Knight-Commander ordering it.

AshenEndemion wrote...

Not that it was immoral, or wrong, unwarrented, or genocide, or disarmament... That it was ILLEGAL.

Why are you posting in this thread about genocide when that has nothing to do with the OP?

Because it pertains to the Right of Annulment ordered by Meredith? 

This entire discussion dovetailed into genocide when David Gaider responded to my post where he said mages weren't innocent because they have magical ability when I addressed that, regardless of the fact that it's legal, it's still genocide.

[asindre]

Wulfram wrote...

Nuremberg disagreed. 

sorry don't know what this means?

Anyway, they were willing to disobey Meredith's eminently reasonable "Kill the dangerous Apostate who has just slaughtered loads of Templars" order, so they could have disobeyed her "kill the mage kids" order too.

I have never actually seen any of these kids you keep talking about, and they were also willing to let some mages go.

[WhiteKnyght]

Frankly its sickening that the rulers of these nations let the Chantry have that much power.

Templars causing mass slaughter of men, women, and children. The Kings/Emperors/Presidents/etc of these lands should have to give their approval too, not just allow the Chantry go acting like they make the law.

Rulers bow to the Chantry and give them all the rights in the world, and don't oppose them either out of beliefs or fear of Exalted March. And Templars/Seekers aren't even obligated to help fight during wars or Blights. It makes you wonder who is really calling the shots.

[Torax]

LobselVith8 wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

Read it again.... The OP is actually about how the order for the Right of Annulment coming from Meredith was illegal.

Yes, the OP focused on the Right of Annulment, and the Knight-Commander ordering it.

AshenEndemion wrote...

Not that it was immoral, or wrong, unwarrented, or genocide, or disarmament... That it was ILLEGAL.

Why are you posting in this thread about genocide when that has nothing to do with the OP?

Because it pertains to the Right of Annulment ordered by Meredith? 

This entire discussion dovetailed into genocide when David Gaider responded to my post where he said mages weren't innocent because they have magical ability when I addressed that, regardless of the fact that it's legal, it's still genocide.

Gaider was only saying Mages are not innocent of ever becoming a danger. That many in the world of Thedas will not see them as innocents as you or I would. That doesn't let you then just call it genocide as another way to invalidate what happened whether we like or not. Calling it that just because you can does not solve or prove anything. It's a futile effort really. We can't change the past.

Modifié par Torax, 08 avril 2011 - 10:35 .

[AshenEndymion]

LobselVith8 wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

Not that it was immoral, or wrong, unwarrented, or genocide, or disarmament... That it was ILLEGAL.

Why are you posting in this thread about genocide when that has nothing to do with the OP?

Because it pertains to the Right of Annulment ordered by Meredith? 

This entire discussion dovetailed into genocide when David Gaider responded to my post where he said mages weren't innocent because they have magical ability when I addressed that, regardless of the fact that it's legal, it's still genocide.

And my response to you is that it is not genocide.  It is disarmament.  Because mages aren't people, they are weapons and therefore are as innocent as a bomb is....  Regardless of the fact that it's legal, it's still disarmament...