1072 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

IanPolaris wrote...

Lob,

Honestly the original point of the thread has been addressed (though the implications esp from the Devs are fascinating in a dark and deeply disturbing way). Meridith will always be legally in the right because the story demands it. I found that out on page 6.

-Polaris

I understand that, Ian, and I actually addressed that point on page 11, but it bothers me that the retort from the Head Writer of DA to what Knight-Commander Meredith does in ordering the Right of Annulment is that mages have magical ability and are dangerous.

How is the Right of Annulment excused simply because mages and apprentices have magical ability when we consider that Anders isn't a mage of the Kirkwall Circle, and his last affiliation was with the Grey Wardens? The Circle is blameless for the destruction of the Chantry, but they suffer the consequences of a known apostate who was protected by the Champion's reputation.

[asindre]

IanPolaris wrote...

asindre wrote...
They were given an order, Meredith had the law on her side, they had to follow.

Actually they don't and halfway through Cullen doesn't at least once and certainly doesn't at the end.  This question (admittedly IRL but it applies since we are RL people playing the game) was addressed in the Nuremberg Trials.  You are obligated to disobey an immoral order even if it's technically illegal at the time.  Genocide is such a case.  People even today can and are sentenced to prison by the Hague for following :"legal" orders.

-Polaris

But Meredith was allowed to annull the circle, Gaider has said so himself, and as some others have said, they might have been too afraid of Meredith to say no at first but when cullen says it they all agree.

[IanPolaris]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Frankly its sickening that the rulers of these nations let the Chantry have that much power.

Templars causing mass slaughter of men, women, and children. The Kings/Emperors/Presidents/etc of these lands should have to give their approval too, not just allow the Chantry go acting like they make the law.

Rulers bow to the Chantry and give them all the rights in the world, and don't oppose them either out of beliefs or fear of Exalted March. And Templars/Seekers aren't even obligated to help fight during wars or Blights. It makes you wonder who is really calling the shots.

Agreed and if I am reading the world correctly, that's about to change in a major way.  In fact from what we hear from King Alister, it already is changing in a big way in Fereldan where the crown has essetially de-certified the chantry's rights over mages in Fereldan and nationalized magic.  If this war heats up like I expect, I think a lot of other nations will follow Fereldan's example...especially when (after the smoke clears) it becomes readily apparent that much of Kirkwall's problems lay in the fact there was no real secular govt and through Meridith, the Chantry sabotaged any attempt to establish one.

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

AshenEndemion wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Because it pertains to the Right of Annulment ordered by Meredith? 

This entire discussion dovetailed into genocide when David Gaider responded to my post where he said mages weren't innocent because they have magical ability when I addressed that, regardless of the fact that it's legal, it's still genocide.

And my response to you is that it is not genocide.  It is disarmament.  Because mages aren't people, they are weapons and therefore are as innocent as a bomb is....  Regardless of the fact that it's legal, it's still disarmament...

It's legally genocide considering that mages are people.

[IanPolaris]

asindre wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

asindre wrote...
They were given an order, Meredith had the law on her side, they had to follow.

Actually they don't and halfway through Cullen doesn't at least once and certainly doesn't at the end.  This question (admittedly IRL but it applies since we are RL people playing the game) was addressed in the Nuremberg Trials.  You are obligated to disobey an immoral order even if it's technically illegal at the time.  Genocide is such a case.  People even today can and are sentenced to prison by the Hague for following :"legal" orders.

-Polaris

But Meredith was allowed to annull the circle, Gaider has said so himself, and as some others have said, they might have been too afraid of Meredith to say no at first but when cullen says it they all agree.

The Toten-Kopf SS and the NKVD also followed perfectly legal orders.  It's still mass murder and genocide, and per Nuremburg, following orders does not eliminate your culpability in following them.

-Polaris

[Torax]

LobselVith8 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Lob,

Honestly the original point of the thread has been addressed (though the implications esp from the Devs are fascinating in a dark and deeply disturbing way). Meridith will always be legally in the right because the story demands it. I found that out on page 6.

-Polaris

I understand that, Ian, and I actually addressed that point on page 11, but it bothers me that the retort from the Head Writer of DA to what Knight-Commander Meredith does in ordering the Right of Annulment is that mages have magical ability and are dangerous.

How is the Right of Annulment excused simply because mages and apprentices have magical ability when we consider that Anders isn't a mage of the Kirkwall Circle, and his last affiliation was with the Grey Wardens? The Circle is blameless for the destruction of the Chantry, but they suffer the consequences of a known apostate who was protected by the Champion's reputation.

Gaider never seemed to imply that it was excused morally. He just stated that they she had the ability to use it since the Grand Cleric and most likely the majority of the clergy were all killed. Cullen wasn't there to stand up to her if I recall. Maybe he would have stopped it earlier? Hard to say. Meredith having the ability to invoke in that scene doesn't resolve her being right morally. Gaider even implied before that the Divine would have had some pretty cruel punishments from the Divine when she found it. Granted Meredith is dead by then.

[LobselVith8]

asindre wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Nuremberg disagreed. 

sorry don't know what this means?

I believe it pertains to The Nuremberg Trials.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 08 avril 2011 - 10:42 .

[PantheraOnca]

Torax wrote...



Many do not see mages are beings. They see them as monsters. Just like some view elves are inferior and borderline slaves. Thedas is not a world of equality. Expecting it to be that way goes no where. Like beating ones head against a wall. After a while it's just a head ache that would never go away. Trying to imagine things that are not there in what is know as Thedas.

Just because someone views something someway doesn't make it Right or acceptable.

If you are saying "fighting (perceived) injustice is just bashing your head into a wall, you should stop" then I vehemently disagree with you. You try to find a better way to remove injuste, but if only a head bashing works, bash away.

[AshenEndymion]

LobselVith8 wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Because it pertains to the Right of Annulment ordered by Meredith? 

This entire discussion dovetailed into genocide when David Gaider responded to my post where he said mages weren't innocent because they have magical ability when I addressed that, regardless of the fact that it's legal, it's still genocide.

And my response to you is that it is not genocide.  It is disarmament.  Because mages aren't people, they are weapons and therefore are as innocent as a bomb is....  Regardless of the fact that it's legal, it's still disarmament...

It's legally genocide considering that mages are people.

See, and now we're just going to argue in circles.   Delving in deeper and deeper with no end.

I have no problem with you thinking the action is morally wrong.  I don't believe that it is.  It is a philosophical difference.

I propose a truce.  You stop using "genocide" in your arguments, and I will stop responding with "mages are not people, but rather weapons and so it's disarmament" in any thread not specifically addressing the question.  Fair enough?

[asindre]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Toten-Kopf SS and the NKVD also followed perfectly legal orders.  It's still mass murder and genocide, and per Nuremburg, following orders does not eliminate your culpability in following them.

-Polaris

The Germans were trying to murder an entire people, the templars were protecting Kirkwall. Like Gaider said, there is no point in using real world examples.

Edit: apparently we're not allowed to use the "n" word:whistle:

Modifié par asindre, 08 avril 2011 - 10:47 .

[IanPolaris]

LobselVith8 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Lob,

Honestly the original point of the thread has been addressed (though the implications esp from the Devs are fascinating in a dark and deeply disturbing way). Meridith will always be legally in the right because the story demands it. I found that out on page 6.

-Polaris

I understand that, Ian, and I actually addressed that point on page 11, but it bothers me that the retort from the Head Writer of DA to what Knight-Commander Meredith does in ordering the Right of Annulment is that mages have magical ability and are dangerous.

How is the Right of Annulment excused simply because mages and apprentices have magical ability when we consider that Anders isn't a mage of the Kirkwall Circle, and his last affiliation was with the Grey Wardens? The Circle is blameless for the destruction of the Chantry, but they suffer the consequences of a known apostate who was protected by the Champion's reputation.

Oh I perfectly agree, and to be honest except to get particular achievements and/or be a completionist and/or if you want to play a genuinely evil Hawke, I don't understand how anyone of good moral character can side with Meridith at the very end (I can see Law and Order types doing so earlier esp given what happens to your mother).

The bottom line is that Meridith gleefully orders the mass-murder of people for a crime they clearly and obviously did not commit while completely ignoring the obvious guilty party who wants to be arrested and tried.

It doesn't get much more clearer or evil than that, and it's why I find DG's comments in this thread to be deeply worrying and disturbing.

-Polaris

[asindre]

LobselVith8 wrote...

asindre wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Nuremberg disagreed. 

sorry don't know what this means?

I believe it pertains to The Nuremberg Trials.

Yes I noticed that when another poster said it, I feel kind of stupid:pinched:

[IanPolaris]

Torax wrote...

Gaider never seemed to imply that it was excused morally. He just stated that they she had the ability to use it since the Grand Cleric and most likely the majority of the clergy were all killed. Cullen wasn't there to stand up to her if I recall. Maybe he would have stopped it earlier? Hard to say. Meredith having the ability to invoke in that scene doesn't resolve her being right morally. Gaider even implied before that the Divine would have had some pretty cruel punishments from the Divine when she found it. Granted Meredith is dead by then.

Actually he does seem to say that Meridith's position is an arguably reasonable one and thus it could be morally justified.

http://social.biowar...1321/13#6995376

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

asindre wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The Toten-Kopf SS and the NKVD also followed perfectly legal orders.  It's still mass murder and genocide, and per Nuremburg, following orders does not eliminate your culpability in following them.

-Polaris

The ****s were trying to murder an entire people, the templars were protecting Kirkwall. Like Gaider said, there is no point in using real world examples.

How was Meredith protecting Kirkwall by ignoring the guilty party standing right in front of her and attacking the population in the Gallows who were innocent of the crime?

[Torax]

PantheraOnca wrote...

Torax wrote...



Many do not see mages are beings. They see them as monsters. Just like some view elves are inferior and borderline slaves. Thedas is not a world of equality. Expecting it to be that way goes no where. Like beating ones head against a wall. After a while it's just a head ache that would never go away. Trying to imagine things that are not there in what is know as Thedas.

Just because someone views something someway doesn't make it Right or acceptable.

If you are saying "fighting (perceived) injustice is just bashing your head into a wall, you should stop" then I vehemently disagree with you. You try to find a better way to remove injuste, but if only a head bashing works, bash away.

The statement about banging one's head against wall is trying to apply things form the real world into Thedas. Those things have never happened in that world for all to view actions of mages in that light. So bringing them up in context to the game changes nothing. I don't see anyone really caring that Tevinter killed most of all the elves and then made the rest slaves for thousands of years. Most the world still sees them as inferior. Thedas is not a fair and kind world for the most part. Even the Chantry while it does help widows and orphans is still as harsh as so many other groups. It still has zealots and fanatics. Nothing is perfect in Thedas. Trying to pretend it is or trying to imply it is say present day europe? Pointless and goes no where.

Modifié par Torax, 08 avril 2011 - 10:52 .

[IanPolaris]

asindre wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The Toten-Kopf SS and the NKVD also followed perfectly legal orders.  It's still mass murder and genocide, and per Nuremburg, following orders does not eliminate your culpability in following them.

-Polaris

The ****s were trying to murder an entire people, the templars were protecting Kirkwall. Like Gaider said, there is no point in using real world examples.

No they weren't.  The templars under Meridith completely ignored the one person who was obviously and clearly guilty of a terrorist act.  They wanted to kill all mages period, guilty or not, reason or not.  That's genocide and thus the comparison is valid.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 08 avril 2011 - 10:48 .

[LobselVith8]

asindre wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I believe it pertains to The Nuremberg Trials.

Yes I noticed that when another poster said it, I feel kind of stupid:pinched: 

There's no reason to feel stupid. This is a civil debate about an imagined universe crafted by a myraid of different people, that's all. And it's Friday.

[Wulfram]

asindre wrote...

sorry don't know what this means?

I was referring to the Nuremberg trials, where people accused of warcrimes adopted the infamous defence that they were "one following orders".

edit: I post too slowly for a thread this fast it seems

In truth, I might be willing to allow that for individual non-officer templars, at least to some extent.  But not for the order as a whole

I have never actually seen any of these kids you keep talking about, and they were also willing to let some mages go.

Only if the Champion intervenes will they let them go.  Otherwise Cullen will order them to carry out the Knight Commanders orders.
The cutscene is actually pretty well done.  It's a shame we don't see it in every playthrough, since it does a pretty decent job of showing what annullment means.
We don't see any mage children in DA2.  Which is a bit cowardly on Bioware's part IMO.  But unless Bioware has changed something from Origins - and Mr Gaider has had ample opportunity to correct me if this is so - they are there and included in the Anullment.

Modifié par Wulfram, 08 avril 2011 - 10:52 .

[Torax]

IanPolaris wrote...

Torax wrote...

Gaider never seemed to imply that it was excused morally. He just stated that they she had the ability to use it since the Grand Cleric and most likely the majority of the clergy were all killed. Cullen wasn't there to stand up to her if I recall. Maybe he would have stopped it earlier? Hard to say. Meredith having the ability to invoke in that scene doesn't resolve her being right morally. Gaider even implied before that the Divine would have had some pretty cruel punishments from the Divine when she found it. Granted Meredith is dead by then.

Actually he does seem to say that Meridith's position is an arguably reasonable one and thus it could be morally justified.

http://social.biowar...1321/13#6995376

-Polaris

Yes justified for some templars. You tried to imply that it was his personal belief after that. He was just saying for say Meredith and the other pricks like Alrik. They would consider themselves justified. Loghain even thought he was justified in his actions including letting the son of Maric die. It just is what it is. Painting gaider to be some mage hater gets us no where. Infact it just makes you seem more bias and petty. While you attempt to make Gaider look like a mage hater he has been neutral. You just try to make him your enemy cause he works for Bioware.

[IanPolaris]

Torax wrote...

The statement about baging one's head against wall is trying to apply things form the real world into Thedas. Those things have never happened in that world for all to view actions of mages in that light. So bringing them up in context to the game changes nothing. I don't see anyone really caring that Tevinter killed most of all the elves and then made the rest slaves for thousands of years. Most the world still sees them as inferior. Thedas is not a fair and kind world for the most part. Even the Chantry while it does help widows and orphans is still as harsh as so many other groups. It still has zealots and fanatics. Nothing is perfect in Thedas. Trying to pretend it is or trying to imply it is say present day europe? Pointless and goes no where.

Actually I've argued heatedly and vehemently that what the Chantry did to the Dales (and Elves) was not only evil but a gross betrayal of Andraste herself, but that's a very different topic so I haven't mentioned it until now.

It also doesn't matter.  Just because the Chantry is guilty of other things doesn't make them less culpable in this case.

-Polaris

[asindre]

LobselVith8 wrote...
How was Meredith protecting Kirkwall by ignoring the guilty party standing right in front of her and attacking the population in the Gallows who were innocent of the crime?

Meredith wanted to annull the circle long before Anders blew up the chantry, but when he did, she got the power to do it.

[IanPolaris]

Torax wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Torax wrote...

Gaider never seemed to imply that it was excused morally. He just stated that they she had the ability to use it since the Grand Cleric and most likely the majority of the clergy were all killed. Cullen wasn't there to stand up to her if I recall. Maybe he would have stopped it earlier? Hard to say. Meredith having the ability to invoke in that scene doesn't resolve her being right morally. Gaider even implied before that the Divine would have had some pretty cruel punishments from the Divine when she found it. Granted Meredith is dead by then.

Actually he does seem to say that Meridith's position is an arguably reasonable one and thus it could be morally justified.

http://social.biowar...1321/13#6995376

-Polaris

Yes justified for some templars. You tried to imply that it was his personal belief after that. He was just saying for say Meredith and the other pricks like Alrik. They would consider themselves justified. Loghain even thought he was justified in his actions including letting the son of Maric die. It just is what it is. Painting gaider to be some mage hater gets us no where. Infact it just makes you seem more bias and petty. While you attempt to make Gaider look like a mage hater he has been neutral. You just try to make him your enemy cause he works for Bioware.

No.  What I linked to and what I am talkig about IS DG's personal beliefs.  Not that the templars are right or wrong, but that locking away people for what they might do can be considered reasonable and anyone that disasgrees is naive.  He even used that exact word when addressing me.

If I am to be called naive for calling the slaughter of people for a crime they didn't commit to be murder and genocide and that saying that it's considered evil to punish people for what they are rather than what they've done, then I will proudly bear the title of Naive.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

Meredith was insane out of her mind, going against everything legal and what the Templars stand for. I'm just glad I got to kill her (well, technically she killed herself.) She let her personal experiences interfere with her duty. Because her sister was a mage and became an Abomination, she viewed all mages as evil and dangerous. It's a conflict of interest I believe, letting her personal beliefs influence her job.

[Torax]

IanPolaris wrote...

Torax wrote...

The statement about baging one's head against wall is trying to apply things form the real world into Thedas. Those things have never happened in that world for all to view actions of mages in that light. So bringing them up in context to the game changes nothing. I don't see anyone really caring that Tevinter killed most of all the elves and then made the rest slaves for thousands of years. Most the world still sees them as inferior. Thedas is not a fair and kind world for the most part. Even the Chantry while it does help widows and orphans is still as harsh as so many other groups. It still has zealots and fanatics. Nothing is perfect in Thedas. Trying to pretend it is or trying to imply it is say present day europe? Pointless and goes no where.

Actually I've argued heatedly and vehemently that what the Chantry did to the Dales (and Elves) was not only evil but a gross betrayal of Andraste herself, but that's a very different topic so I haven't mentioned it until now.

It also doesn't matter.  Just because the Chantry is guilty of other things doesn't make them less culpable in this case.

-Polaris

Who said they were innocent? I never would. Personally I think the Chantry is just as bad as others except probably the worst of them all is the Dwarf Nobles vs. Castless. Maybe Tevinter is worse than that. We never got to truly see how that one plays out by going there. I figure most Thedas is such chaos and power struggles. The main reason the Qun came to be. To make order out of the chaos. As well as equality for all the people in the Qun. Not sure who would have said the Chantry is innocent. I didn't for example yet you bring it up like they are.

[TEWR]

Torax wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Torax wrote...

The statement about baging one's head against wall is trying to apply things form the real world into Thedas. Those things have never happened in that world for all to view actions of mages in that light. So bringing them up in context to the game changes nothing. I don't see anyone really caring that Tevinter killed most of all the elves and then made the rest slaves for thousands of years. Most the world still sees them as inferior. Thedas is not a fair and kind world for the most part. Even the Chantry while it does help widows and orphans is still as harsh as so many other groups. It still has zealots and fanatics. Nothing is perfect in Thedas. Trying to pretend it is or trying to imply it is say present day europe? Pointless and goes no where.

Actually I've argued heatedly and vehemently that what the Chantry did to the Dales (and Elves) was not only evil but a gross betrayal of Andraste herself, but that's a very different topic so I haven't mentioned it until now.

It also doesn't matter.  Just because the Chantry is guilty of other things doesn't make them less culpable in this case.

-Polaris

Who said they were innocent? I never would. Personally I think the Chantry is just as bad as others except probably the worst of them all is the Dwarf Nobles vs. Castless. Maybe Tevinter is worse than that. We never got to truly see how that one plays out by going there. I figure most Thedas is such chaos and power struggles. The main reason the Qun came to be. To make order out of the chaos. As well as equality for all the people in the Qun. Not sure who would have said the Chantry is innocent. I didn't for example yet you bring it up like they are.

Having Bhelen on the throne eliminates the Casteless point really. Had I been given the chance for my DN to become king, he would've done everything Bhelen did, minus the pointless slaughtering of the Harrowmont family.