1072 Antworten in diesem Thema

[Zippy72]

While your logic is sound you're applying the finer points of modern law to a feudal society that's just suffered a major incident. Put armed people in high stress situations and stuff will happen, even without accounting for the sharp, pointy idol of insanitude.

[IanPolaris]

Tell me, how had the situation changed?

The chantry got blown up by a mage? That mage was a former Grey Warden apostate and there was not one scintilla of evidence that linked the circle to the act. Thus this does not fall under the perview of the Rite of Annulment.

Were the mages rioting in the streets? No. The mages remained where they had been, under lock and key in the Gallows. In fact until Meridith calls for her Rite, there is no other violence whatsoever.

Also Meridith does not have the authority to declare marital law. The Guard Captain did that, and the city was under control.

Thus at no point has the situation actually changed in the only way it mattered: With regard to the circle. Until then, Meridth is bound by her own appeal and is required to wait. {Elthina is not because she never asked for higher authority on appeal. Had she asked the Divine to intervene she would have been.}

-Polaris

[sphinxess]

Circumstances change - doesn't matter if the Divine turns her down or is still thinking about it based on her earlier claim she calls for the Right of Annulment because of the destruction of the chantry and has the legal authority to do so. That might be why she ignored Anders - she didnt want to make it clear that a outside force was responsible.

Bearbeitet von sphinxess, 08 April 2011 - 12:40 .

[TobiTobsen]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Irrelevant.  The situation regarding the CIRCLE had not.  Templars only have authority over the circle and defending the Chantry (as Orsino very correctly points out at the start of Act 3.

Templars are also obligated to protect normal citizens from mages.

And vice-versa although most of the templars seem to have forgotten that.  It's irrelevant.  By locking down the Gallows, the Templars have done that (protected the city).

Have they? There seem to be pretty many mages outside of the Gallows. Many mages that summon many demons or succumb to them. There are even Pride Demons in the street. I think the templars need to do a little more than just locking down the Gallows.

[Torax]

Polaris while I understand your attempt at making it a more illegal or wrong act. I think there is one key thing you are forgetting in that brain of your's.

Gaider's Opinion > Your's

If he says she had the Right to do it, then she had the right to do it.

Bearbeitet von Torax, 08 April 2011 - 12:37 .

[The Angry One]

IanPolaris wrote...

And vice-versa although most of the templars seem to have forgotten that.  It's irrelevant.  By locking down the Gallows, the Templars have done that (protected the city).

In your opinion. Not Meredith's.

There is not one scintilla of evidence that suggests that Anders did anything other than act alone

And there's no evidence to say that he didn't act alone either.
Again, judgement call.

(and he specifically acted alone so others would not be blamed.  He all but says this).

 

He did it to instigate a war. He KNEW all mages would be blamed for his act.

Moreover, Meridith at no point accuses the Circle of being complicit at all when Orisino denies it.  That means by implication she accepts the circle is innocent but doesn't care.  That means the situaion witht the circle itself (the only thing that matters for a Rite of Annulment) hasn't actually changed.

She doesn't have to. She can simply determine that mages overall have become uncontrollable in Kirkwall.

Per DG, normlly she would, but she ceded that right when she appealed to the Divine.  Deal with it.

No she didn't, as circumstances changed. Whether you think the circumstances didn't change enough is irrelevant.

Nope.  She doesn't.  Had Meridith not appealed to the Divine then very technically (per DG) she would have.  But she did and the situation with the circle itself had not changed.  Ergo, Meridith's order was illegal.  Either she:

1. Disobeyed a direct order from the DIvine.
2.  Abrogated authority given to the Divine by Meridith's own request.

-Polaris

You're forgetting one simple fact. The Circle is in the city.
Or at least in close proximity to it. What affects the city can affect the circle. The circumstances in the city changed, therefore Meredith has the legal right as acting Grand Cleric to determine whether the Right is needed or not even if the only reason is to maintain order.

Bearbeitet von The Angry One, 08 April 2011 - 12:38 .

[IanPolaris]

thurmanator692 wrote...

My guess is that it was a contingency order. If the mages end up killing the Grand Cleric, then, by the contingency order, the local Kinght Commander has the right to invoke the Rite (Right?) of Annulment. This theory fits because if the mages DID revolt and kill the Grand Cleric, I doubt the templars could be bothered to wait for a go ahead from the Divine all the way in Orlais. Meridith probably intended to cover up the fact that it was an apostate that killed the Grand Cleric once all the folks that knew the truth were dead.


Unless I've missed your point, in which case, I'm sorry.

Now that is an excellent point and worth discussing.  The problem I have with it is we've seen no game lore evidene that such contingency orders actually exist.  We didn't even know (and I won't go any further than that), that a Templar Knight Commander could miraculously become a member of the clergy in such a case until DG said so.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Angry One,

The Circle is NOT in the city. It is on an isolated prison island in the harbor.

-Polais

[Oneiropolos]

He's already given his input. He flat out told us in the "Was Anders Justified" thread that Meredith acted legally. He wrote the character of Meredith, I suspect he knows where her limitations are. He said it was not morally right of her, but it was her LEGAL right, and that no codex entry discusses the chain of power regarding the Right of Anullment in a situation where the Grand Cleric has been killed. He said a Knight-Commander had the legal right to make the call in such a case, presumably until another Grand Cleric can be appointed in the city. Which might be take a bit in Kirkwall because the chantry they had is now in rubble...and as we quickly see, there are mages all over the streets immediately after the explosion occurred. The mages are not contained in the Galllows. They are ON THE STREETS. Presumably because they saw a red beam into the sky from the area of the chantry, realized only a mage could have done that, and were trying to get the heck away from trouble because they knew what was going to result.

[The Angry One]

IanPolaris wrote...

Now that is an excellent point and worth discussing.  The problem I have with it is we've seen no game lore evidene that such contingency orders actually exist.  We didn't even know (and I won't go any further than that), that a Templar Knight Commander could miraculously become a member of the clergy in such a case until DG said so.

-Polaris

It's not miraculously become a member of the clergy, it's assuming their authority in a state of emergency when they've been killed or incapacitated.

[IanPolaris]

Torax wrote...

Polaris while I understand your attempt at making it a more illegal or wrong act. I think there is one key thing you are forgetting in that brain of your's.

Gaider's Opinion > Your's

If he says she had the Right to do it, then she had the right to do it.

DG has never addressed this particular point.  I don't think he's fully considered it honestly.

-Polaris

[The Angry One]

IanPolaris wrote...

Torax wrote...

Polaris while I understand your attempt at making it a more illegal or wrong act. I think there is one key thing you are forgetting in that brain of your's.

Gaider's Opinion > Your's

If he says she had the Right to do it, then she had the right to do it.

DG has never addressed this particular point.  I don't think he's fully considered it honestly.

-Polaris

Says someone who refuses to accept that the Chantry explosion affected mages at all.. when it clearly did and we see it.
Or do you think all those mages instantly teleported to the city when Meredith declared the Right?

[AshenEndymion]

IanPolaris wrote...

Tell me, how had the situation changed?

Elthina, the current Grand Cleric, died.

The chantry got blown up by a mage? That mage was a former Grey Warden apostate and there was not one scintilla of evidence that linked the circle to the act. Thus this does not fall under the perview of the Rite of Annulment.

Irrelevant.

Were the mages rioting in the streets? No. The mages remained where they had been, under lock and key in the Gallows. In fact until Meridith calls for her Rite, there is no other violence whatsoever.

Irrelevant.

Also Meridith does not have the authority to declare marital law. The Guard Captain did that, and the city was under control.

Irrelevant.

Thus at no point has the situation actually changed in the only way it mattered: With regard to the circle. Until then, Meridth is bound by her own appeal and is required to wait. {Elthina is not because she never asked for higher authority on appeal. Had she asked the Divine to intervene she would have been.}

Meredith became acting Grand Cleric.  That is how the situation changed.  And the only situational change that matters.  The acting Grand Cleric does not need permission from the Divine to do anything.  If she did, there would be no reason for making an acting Grand Cleric.

[IanPolaris]

Oneiropolos wrote...

He's already given his input. He flat out told us in the "Was Anders Justified" thread that Meredith acted legally. He wrote the character of Meredith, I suspect he knows where her limitations are. He said it was not morally right of her, but it was her LEGAL right, and that no codex entry discusses the chain of power regarding the Right of Anullment in a situation where the Grand Cleric has been killed. He said a Knight-Commander had the legal right to make the call in such a case, presumably until another Grand Cleric can be appointed in the city. Which might be take a bit in Kirkwall because the chantry they had is now in rubble...and as we quickly see, there are mages all over the streets immediately after the explosion occurred. The mages are not contained in the Galllows. They are ON THE STREETS. Presumably because they saw a red beam into the sky from the area of the chantry, realized only a mage could have done that, and were trying to get the heck away from trouble because they knew what was going to result.

No he hasn't.  The question was, if the Grand Cleric when kaplewy, did the Knight Commander have the authority to step in as Grand Cleric and declare the Rite.  DG said that she did.  That point this entire thread has never been in question.  Not once.

What I am saying, however, is we have new information that wasn't talked about when DG made his statements and you can not assume he considered them.  The Fact is Meridith specifically consulted and requested the intervention of the Divine on Appeal.  THAT limits her authority because she is obligated to wait for an answer unless the situation with regard to the circle (the only thing that matters for a Rite of Annulment) changes....and it didn't.

-Polaris

[1Nosphorus1]

No codex discusses said issue because most of the codexes were a straight copy->paste from Origins.

Edit: I find it irrelevant that people in this topic keep using the word irrelevant as a means of high intellectual discussing.

Bearbeitet von 1Nosphorus1, 08 April 2011 - 12:45 .

[The Angry One]

IanPolaris wrote...

Angry One,

The Circle is NOT in the city. It is on an isolated prison island in the harbor.

-Polais

It is still next to the main areas of the city and within the city limits.

Bearbeitet von The Angry One, 08 April 2011 - 12:43 .

[blothulfur]

Well we're operating on shaky grounds as we do not have a complete understanding of chantry law, we do not know whether that law can be suspended in extremis, whether there is prededent in chantry history and we do not know whether the templars as a military institution follow the mission command model so we can't logically make a truly informed choice.

Seems to be a fairly balanced argument if it weren't for the magical mcguffin taking all the blame.

[IanPolaris]

The Angry One wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Torax wrote...

Polaris while I understand your attempt at making it a more illegal or wrong act. I think there is one key thing you are forgetting in that brain of your's.

Gaider's Opinion > Your's

If he says she had the Right to do it, then she had the right to do it.

DG has never addressed this particular point.  I don't think he's fully considered it honestly.

-Polaris

Says someone who refuses to accept that the Chantry explosion affected mages at all.. when it clearly did and we see it.
Or do you think all those mages instantly teleported to the city when Meredith declared the Right?

I said it didn't affect the circle which it did not. The Rite of Annulment does not target apostates.  It deals only with circle mages which had nothing to do with it.  Elthina's death also has nothing to do with it.

Had Elthina died in her sleep of a heart attack, Meridith still would have been obligated to wait for word from the Divine because she made the request.  That doesn't change because of how Elthina died.  It has nothing to do with the circle and that's all that matters.

-Polaris

[The Angry One]

IanPolaris wrote...

No he hasn't.  The question was, if the Grand Cleric when kaplewy, did the Knight Commander have the authority to step in as Grand Cleric and declare the Rite.  DG said that she did.  That point this entire thread has never been in question.  Not once.

What I am saying, however, is we have new information that wasn't talked about when DG made his statements and you can not assume he considered them.  The Fact is Meridith specifically consulted and requested the intervention of the Divine on Appeal.  THAT limits her authority because she is obligated to wait for an answer unless the situation with regard to the circle (the only thing that matters for a Rite of Annulment) changes....and it didn't.

-Polaris

There are really two ways why this is legal.

1) A major event happens in the city that's next to the circle. With the death of the Grand Cleric the Knight-Commander has the authority to determine if this changes the situation enough to declare an emergency and the Right.

2) She is acting Grand Cleric. The reason she had to ask the Divine is because she was not the Grand Cleric. Legally, now she is and is allowed to make the decision herself.

[Torax]

God, you just found a tiny loop hole and will argue it to death won't you. Despite Gaider saying what the situation was at the end point when she called the event. You will argue this to the death just because you can. Some people just need to go outside.

[IanPolaris]

The Angry One wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Angry One,

The Circle is NOT in the city. It is on an isolated prison island in the harbor.

-Polais

It is still next to the main areas of the city and within the city limits.

No it's not in both cases.  The gallows is like Alcatraz.  It's in the harbor but clearly seperate from the city and outside the bounds of the city.  That's why the refugees were sent there (to keep most out of the city).

-Polaris

[The Angry One]

IanPolaris wrote...

I said it didn't affect the circle which it did not. The Rite of Annulment does not target apostates.  It deals only with circle mages which had nothing to do with it.  Elthina's death also has nothing to do with it.

The circle mages who are already in the streets.

Had Elthina died in her sleep of a heart attack, Meridith still would have been obligated to wait for word from the Divine because she made the request.  That doesn't change because of how Elthina died.  It has nothing to do with the circle and that's all that matters.

-Polaris

Which is irrelevant because that's not what happened. The Grand Cleric was assassinated and this compounds the issue.