1072 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

asindre wrote...

Because she didn't care about Anders, she wanted to annull the circle and needed him as an excuse.

She doesn't need him alive. It doesn't make sense for her to ignore him. Not only did he prove to be very dangerous and radical, but he has shown that there is a spirit inside of him, aka very likely to be an abomination.

As KC, she thinks it's smart to ignore him?

I get that she wants to annull the Circle (idol), but she can at least make some effort to get Anders first.

Really, all she had to do was arrest Anders and tell the citizens "This is your culprit! I will kill him!". But her insanity, coupled with Lyrium Idol insanity, really made her an idiot blind to rational thinking.

The Circle was innocent of any action taken against the Chantry. Legally she may have had the right to enact the Rite, but there was no justifiable basis for carrying through with such a course. Which inevitably led Meredith and Orsino to fall right into Anders' plans for how he was hoping things would turn out

[Torax]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

asindre wrote...

Because she didn't care about Anders, she wanted to annull the circle and needed him as an excuse.

She doesn't need him alive. It doesn't make sense for her to ignore him. Not only did he prove to be very dangerous and radical, but he has shown that there is a spirit inside of him, aka very likely to be an abomination.

As KC, she thinks it's smart to ignore him?

I get that she wants to annull the Circle (idol), but she can at least make some effort to get Anders first.

Attacking Anders could be problematic. If she attacked him then and there, she could have risked having to fight the champion and all his companions first. Better to leave him for last in that case. Since you still would want the Champion aiding you possibly.

[AshenEndymion]

IanPolaris wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

But threatening someone is only a crime because people are known to carry out the threats.

It's still based on what someone has DONE.  If you don't think that verbally threatening soemone is a crime because you don' intend to carry through, then go ahead and (hypothetically for all the secret service people reading) threaten Obama's life on the 'net, phone, and even tell your closest friends.

Be sure to say hello to the beefy hunks in the secret service who obviously are not there to arrest you for any crime.

-Polaris

I don't think you're understanding the meaning... If everyone, everywhere threatened each other daily, and no one had EVER carried out their threat, we'd be living in a world full of liars.  But more importantly, threatening someone would NOT be a crime.  Even though there was an act of threatening someone every day.

It is the possibility that someone could carry out their threat, and actually follow through, that makes threatening someone a crime...

Mages, by virtue of being alive, threaten society.  Society should do nothing about that threat?

[asindre]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

asindre wrote...

Because she didn't care about Anders, she wanted to annull the circle and needed him as an excuse.

She doesn't need him alive. It doesn't make sense for her to ignore him. Not only did he prove to be very dangerous and radical, but he has shown that there is a spirit inside of him, aka very likely to be an abomination.

As KC, she thinks it's smart to ignore him?

I get that she wants to annull the Circle (idol), but she can at least make some effort to get Anders first.

That's probably more because of gameplay than story, they wanted it to be the players choice what to do with him.

[TEWR]

Torax wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

asindre wrote...

Because she didn't care about Anders, she wanted to annull the circle and needed him as an excuse.

She doesn't need him alive. It doesn't make sense for her to ignore him. Not only did he prove to be very dangerous and radical, but he has shown that there is a spirit inside of him, aka very likely to be an abomination.

As KC, she thinks it's smart to ignore him?

I get that she wants to annull the Circle (idol), but she can at least make some effort to get Anders first.

Attacking Anders could be problematic. If she attacked him then and there, she could have risked having to fight the champion and all his companions first. Better to leave him for last in that case. Since you still would want the Champion aiding you possibly.

Not if the Champion goes "**** you Anders you're a murderer! Take him Meredith!"


Granted I always let Anders live because 1) I agree with him. and 2) Watching Sebastian's hypocrisy is always funny.

[WhiteKnyght]

David Gaider wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
Please show us where the Right of Annulment can only be granted if evidence is presented in a court of law or something rather than a judgement call on the Knight-Commander's part which can be supported or denied by the Grand Cleric.

So long as the Grand Cleric was alive and refused Meredith's request for the Right of Annulment, Meredith's only option was to appeal to the Divine. Once the Grand Cleric was dead, and no immediate successor in evidence, Meredith had the legal authority she needed.

This does not mean the Divine could not theoretically call her to the mat later on for choosing wrongly... and one could argue that she was morally obligated to wait for the Divine's answer, but she certainly wasn't legally obligated to do so. Beyond that, one can conjecture until the cows come home with regards to what the repercussions of such a decision would be.

What if, hypothetically Meredith had gotten her reply the day before Ander's went terrorist on the Chantry and the answer were "No"? Would Meredith have the legal right to defy the Divine's wishes just because she is in the position where she can invoke the right?

Magic may have its dangers, but arguably the Templars can be just as dangerous. Some of the Templars seem to enjoy hunting mages the same way the ****s enjoyed hunting Jews. Not all of the Templars stick to their so called duty and abuse their powers. They could kill a mage for fun and no one would argue with them if they said "I saw him using blood magic" and nobody would argue with them.

What in my opinion is needed is a reform within the Chantry, Templars, and Circle of Magi. If basic law enforcement had the same powers/training as the Templars, mages wouldn't be as much of a danger as the Chantry claims if they were given their freedom.

[IanPolaris]

Torax wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

asindre wrote...

Because she didn't care about Anders, she wanted to annull the circle and needed him as an excuse.

She doesn't need him alive. It doesn't make sense for her to ignore him. Not only did he prove to be very dangerous and radical, but he has shown that there is a spirit inside of him, aka very likely to be an abomination.

As KC, she thinks it's smart to ignore him?

I get that she wants to annull the Circle (idol), but she can at least make some effort to get Anders first.

Attacking Anders could be problematic. If she attacked him then and there, she could have risked having to fight the champion and all his companions first. Better to leave him for last in that case. Since you still would want the Champion aiding you possibly.

Attacking yes, but the Champion and Capt of the City guard are both standing right there, so she could have called on the Champion (and Aveline) to place Anders under arrest.  Since Anders is a mage, she could reasonable do so herself on her own authority as a Templar, and no one would say boo....or if they did, then those that defended Anders would be painted with his crime (and all of my Hawkes wind up executing Anders themselves since no one else seems to actually be interested in justice).

-Polaris

[AshenEndymion]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

What if, hypothetically Meredith had gotten her reply the day before Ander's went terrorist on the Chantry and the answer were "No"? Would Meredith have the legal right to defy the Divine's wishes just because she is in the position where she can invoke the right?

Hypothetically?  Yes.  Meredith could still invoke the right.

If Meredith invoked the right, and 20 seconds later a messenger arrived with a letter from the Divine saying "no," then Meredith would have problems....

[IanPolaris]

AshenEndemion wrote...

Mages, by virtue of being alive, threaten society.  Society should do nothing about that threat?

I smell a strawman.  Thare are many stable and viable societies that both control magic and treat mages like human beings.  The two are not incompatible.

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

Wulfram wrote...

Sheryl Chee wrote...

This is what David is actually saying:

It is naive to assume that absolutely no one in Thedas would find it justified to lock up a bunch of people who are, by an accident of birth, dangerous.

Well if he insists on arguing against a position no one holds, then it's hardly surprising if people get confused.

I think that's the issue here.

[asindre]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Not all the mages practiced blood magic or became abominations.

Not everyone  in the Ferelden circle either but that didn't stop the templars there.

In which the entire Circle is condemned for the actions of a man who isn't a member of the Kirkwall Circle, which many people take issue with (including me).

Including me too

It calls into question the validity of her claims if she wasn't mentally capable of making rational decisions.

Not if nobody knew she was insane, untill we learned she had the idol I just thought she really hated mages.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Torax wrote...
Attacking Anders could be problematic. If she attacked him then and there, she could have risked having to fight the champion and all his companions first. Better to leave him for last in that case. Since you still would want the Champion aiding you possibly.

What if when Hawke sides with her and she just "leaves his fate to the Champion"? On what basis?
Didn't she think that Hawke might forgive his / her possible friend / lover?

If you side with her, it's like she saying:
"Oh who? Anders? Meh, do whatever you want with him, I'm off to kill the Circle finally!"
You'd think she, being driven insane and paranoid, would go bezerk on an abomination that is standing right next to her!

I don't agree with him often, but Ian comparing Meredith to a spoiled little girl is not that off the mark.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 avril 2011 - 11:36 .

[IanPolaris]

AshenEndemion wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

What if, hypothetically Meredith had gotten her reply the day before Ander's went terrorist on the Chantry and the answer were "No"? Would Meredith have the legal right to defy the Divine's wishes just because she is in the position where she can invoke the right?

Hypothetically?  Yes.  Meredith could still invoke the right.

If Meredith invoked the right, and 20 seconds later a messenger arrived with a letter from the Divine saying "no," then Meredith would have problems....

Had Meridith lived she would have had problems anyway.  Once Cassandra found out what the truth was at the end of the story (and the Seekers quickly would have found out the truth in an after action investigation had things not completely gone to pot), she seems to make it very clear that Divine Justina would have flayed Meridith one millimeter at a time for abusing her authority so badly and creating such problems for the Chantry.  Indeed a part of me suspects that the Divine/Seeker wish Meridith were still alive so they could arrest, try, and very publically execute her in full humiliation mode for what she did (notbecause they disagree with Meridith vis a vis magic but because she harmed the Chantry so badly by being such a clod about it).

-Polaris

[AshenEndymion]

IanPolaris wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

Mages, by virtue of being alive, threaten society.  Society should do nothing about that threat?

I smell a strawman.  Thare are many stable and viable societies that both control magic and treat mages like human beings.  The two are not incompatible.

-Polaris

You can call strawman.  But that's the argument of the Chantry.

They don't agree that there are stable and viable societies.  They don't believe that the Imperium is one such thing.  They don't believe that the Dalish are either...

The point is, the argument exists.  And that the claim that mages in no way threaten society is naive.

[PantheraOnca]

Torax wrote...

Eventually Gaider stated that with the Grand Cleric dead and no successor evident. Meredith was the acting Grand Cleric and gave herself the permission to do Right.

Minor quibble: What he actually states, is that with no immediate successor for Grand Cleric, Meredith, as Knight Commander, has the ability to enact an annulment by herself.

I will edit in the post by DG in a moment.


Edit: Here is my post contesting this notion earlier, and the specific line by DG that should be considered:

PantheraOnca wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Once the Grand Cleric was dead, and no immediate successor in evidence, Meredith had the legal authority she needed.

This line means that Meredith wasn't "acting grand cleric" or in any kind of line of succession to become the grand cleric.

If
there was a line of succession, Meredith would have been an "immediate
successor in evidence." Since there was no such successor, it means that
Meredith was not in any line of succession related to Grand Clericry.

It
does however, seem to indicate that in cases where a grand cleric
cannot be reached, the Knight Commander has the authority to declare an
Annulment.

So its basically:

If <local Grand Cleric exists and is contactable> then <Knight Commander must pettition for Annulment>
If no<local Grand Cleric exists and is contactable>  then <Knight Commander may declare Annulment>.

Modifié par PantheraOnca, 08 avril 2011 - 11:36 .

[LobselVith8]

AshenEndemion wrote...

I don't think you're understanding the meaning... If everyone, everywhere threatened each other daily, and no one had EVER carried out their threat, we'd be living in a world full of liars.  But more importantly, threatening someone would NOT be a crime.  Even though there was an act of threatening someone every day.

It is the possibility that someone could carry out their threat, and actually follow through, that makes threatening someone a crime...

Mages, by virtue of being alive, threaten society.  Society should do nothing about that threat?

Doesn't every living person, by virtue of being alive, have the capacity to harm others? Isn't that why we have laws and law enforcement? Look at where the Chantry controlled Circles have lead to: open rebellion against the Chantry and the Order of Templars because of what transpired at the Kirkwall Circle.

[AshenEndymion]

LobselVith8 wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

I don't think you're understanding the meaning... If everyone, everywhere threatened each other daily, and no one had EVER carried out their threat, we'd be living in a world full of liars.  But more importantly, threatening someone would NOT be a crime.  Even though there was an act of threatening someone every day.

It is the possibility that someone could carry out their threat, and actually follow through, that makes threatening someone a crime...

Mages, by virtue of being alive, threaten society.  Society should do nothing about that threat?

Doesn't every living person, by virtue of being alive, have the capacity to harm others? Isn't that why we have laws and law enforcement? Look at where the Chantry controlled Circles have lead to: open rebellion against the Chantry and the Order of Templars because of what transpired at the Kirkwall Circle.

I didn't say it is not a hypocritcal viewpoint (assuming one believes mages are people:whistle:).

[IanPolaris]

AshenEndemion wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

Mages, by virtue of being alive, threaten society.  Society should do nothing about that threat?

I smell a strawman.  Thare are many stable and viable societies that both control magic and treat mages like human beings.  The two are not incompatible.

-Polaris

You can call strawman.  But that's the argument of the Chantry.

They don't agree that there are stable and viable societies.  They don't believe that the Imperium is one such thing.  They don't believe that the Dalish are either...

The point is, the argument exists.  And that the claim that mages in no way threaten society is naive.

It's an invalid argument.  In fact I will go further.  It's an excuse.  If the chantry really worried about magic, they would openly train all warriors that could pass the muster to learn Templar anti-magic techniques.  If one soldier/guardsman in say three had at least some templar training,  then mages become a lot less threatening.

The fact is the Chantry makes that argument and then willfully ignores all the copious evidence to the contrary.  The Dalish exist as a stable society (as does the Imperium) whether the Chantry wants to admit this or not (just to name two of many examples).

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

asindre wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Not all the mages practiced blood magic or became abominations.

Not everyone  in the Ferelden circle either but that didn't stop the templars there.

It was an outbreak of abominations that wrested control over Kinloch Hold.

asindre wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It calls into question the validity of her claims if she wasn't mentally capable of making rational decisions.

Not if nobody knew she was insane, untill we learned she had the idol I just thought she really hated mages.

I'd agree that no one could know that Meredith was insane because of the Idol., I only meant in terms of how accurate her reasoning was in doing what she did.

[AshenEndymion]

IanPolaris wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

Mages, by virtue of being alive, threaten society.  Society should do nothing about that threat?

I smell a strawman.  Thare are many stable and viable societies that both control magic and treat mages like human beings.  The two are not incompatible.

-Polaris

You can call strawman.  But that's the argument of the Chantry.

They don't agree that there are stable and viable societies.  They don't believe that the Imperium is one such thing.  They don't believe that the Dalish are either...

The point is, the argument exists.  And that the claim that mages in no way threaten society is naive.

It's an invalid argument.  In fact I will go further.  It's an excuse.  If the chantry really worried about magic, they would openly train all warriors that could pass the muster to learn Templar anti-magic techniques.  If one soldier/guardsman in say three had at least some templar training,  then mages become a lot less threatening.

The fact is the Chantry makes that argument and then willfully ignores all the copious evidence to the contrary.  The Dalish exist as a stable society (as does the Imperium) whether the Chantry wants to admit this or not (just to name two of many examples).

-Polaris

It isn't invalid.

Whether the Imperium or the Dalish are stable societies is an opinion.  It isn't fact.  You believe they are such, the Chantry doesn't.  And the Chantry has won the argument over the past 700 years everywhere but the Tivinter Imperium (and Par Vollen, but the Qunari don't count, do they?)...

[Apollo Starflare]

Y'know, Meredith was right about one thing. Just giving the people Anders would never have been enough, with everything else that had been going on it would have lit the torchpaper and had many demanding a crack down on the Mages of some kind anyway.

It's quite right that it was all Anders' fault and he should have been held accountable instead of annulling the Circle, however with all the blood magic that HAD been practised the average joe Andrastian (plus all those that would join in even if they weren't devout) would demand more.

I'm not saying the Annulment was the ideal course of action, but if you think they would have just put Anders on trial, executed him and gone back to normal then you probably don't know enough about Human nature.

Probably the best way of dealing with the situation (if Meredith had been sane) would have been to cart away all the Mages on a boat to somewhere else. But then again she wasn't completely crazy, there WERE blood mages in the Circle and they would have taken advantage of anything of that sort to wreck havoc. Tricky.

[TEWR]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Dalish exist as a stable society

sadly the Dalish cannot be considered a full society because they're separated into clans. However the ancient city of Arlathan fits into your point. They controlled magic and lived in harmony with magic. In fact look at how Merrill defends herself against demons. She says "In the Fade, you have to stay true to yourself" or "only you are real" or something to that effect.

I believe, and this is speculation, that's how all Dalish mages keep themselves safe.

[Torax]

LobselVith8 wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

I don't think you're understanding the meaning... If everyone, everywhere threatened each other daily, and no one had EVER carried out their threat, we'd be living in a world full of liars.  But more importantly, threatening someone would NOT be a crime.  Even though there was an act of threatening someone every day.

It is the possibility that someone could carry out their threat, and actually follow through, that makes threatening someone a crime...

Mages, by virtue of being alive, threaten society.  Society should do nothing about that threat?

Doesn't every living person, by virtue of being alive, have the capacity to harm others? Isn't that why we have laws and law enforcement? Look at where the Chantry controlled Circles have lead to: open rebellion against the Chantry and the Order of Templars because of what transpired at the Kirkwall Circle.

But every person alive doesn't have the power to control minds. Kill people with a thought. Or even just convince others to kill themselves. Create fire from nothing. Call in spirits to do you your dirty work. The list goes on and on. A man with a bow maybe able to shoot some people. But he can't alter reality with his mind. A mage can. Hence the fear some characters have. Even if one refuses to think that is possible or consider it in the realm of posibility.

It would make me wonder if the banter with Irving and Gregoir was more normal for a circle or not. While both conflicting they seemed more reasonable. Where as in Kirkwall it was the opposite. Be it Idol or Paranoia. She didn't seem to want to cooperate with anyone later on unless it suited her goals. Not Elthina and most definitely not Orsino. To a point so much is lost to us in character development cause we only really learn about her in Act 3. Besides rare references and a cameo more or less in Act 2.

Modifié par Torax, 08 avril 2011 - 11:48 .

[AlexXIV]

The fact that is was legal actually speaks more against the templars than if they did something illegal imo. That the Right of Annullment exists in this fashion speaks more about the Chantry and templars than any actions of fanatics or mad/wo)men.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 08 avril 2011 - 11:49 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

How exactly are Tevinter and the Dalish stable societies? One is a mage tyranny, the other is a soon to be extinct nomad people....