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[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

How exactly are Tevinter and the Dalish stable societies? One is a mage tyranny, the other is a soon to be extinct nomad people....

I think he meant more along the lines of Arlathan for the elves

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

How exactly are Tevinter and the Dalish stable societies? One is a mage tyranny, the other is a soon to be extinct nomad people....

I think he meant more along the lines of Arlathan for the elves

Or the Dales.

[IanPolaris]

AshenEndemion wrote...
It isn't invalid.

Whether the Imperium or the Dalish are stable societies is an opinion.  It isn't fact.  You believe they are such, the Chantry doesn't.  And the Chantry has won the argument over the past 700 years everywhere but the Tivinter Imperium (and Par Vollen, but the Qunari don't count, do they?)...

Wrong.  It's a fact.  The Dalish have existed in their current form for 700 years or so.  Most nations in Thedas can't boast of that!  Before then, the Kdm of the Dales was stable for three centuris prior to that and ceased to exist only because it was destroyed by an Exalted March of very questionable legality.  The Imperium has existed longer and in much it's present form for almost all of regarded history (only the Dwarves can claim more stability than that).  

See the point?  Just because you are stronger military than another society does not mean you are a better society or that the oher society isn't instrinsically stable.  I am leaving out morality.  I consider the Tevinter Imperium to be an evil realm (even if most of the people and even many of the magisters might not be) but that's neither here or there when talking about how stable it is.

-Polaris

[PantheraOnca]

AshenEndemion wrote...


It isn't invalid.

Whether the Imperium or the Dalish are stable societies is an opinion.  It isn't fact.  You believe they are such, the Chantry doesn't.  And the Chantry has won the argument over the past 700 years everywhere but the Tivinter Imperium (and Par Vollen, but the Qunari don't count, do they?)...

Also Rivain has its hedgemages or whatever it was they called them... seers! (yay wiki) And the Korcari barbarians have shaman or witch doctors or something.

I think the chantry admits that Rivain exists and that it has existed for a while, and that it isn't in a state of constant turmoil, I don't know what criteria you want for a stable society outside of that.

I mean, allowing the chantry to choose the metrics seems a little counterproductive, but whatever.

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

How exactly are Tevinter and the Dalish stable societies? One is a mage tyranny, the other is a soon to be extinct nomad people....

I think he meant more along the lines of Arlathan for the elves

Or the Dales.

There is that possibility too. Out of curiosity, how long were the Dales allowed to be before the "Exalted March on the heathens" was called?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Well if what we have seen is any indication, two clans could have been potentially annihilated because of mages (Zathrian / Merrill / Marethari).

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The Dalish exist as a stable society

sadly the Dalish cannot be considered a full society because they're separated into clans. However the ancient city of Arlathan fits into your point. They controlled magic and lived in harmony with magic. In fact look at how Merrill defends herself against demons. She says "In the Fade, you have to stay true to yourself" or "only you are real" or something to that effect.

I believe, and this is speculation, that's how all Dalish mages keep themselves safe.

Can I have the source for your claim that the city of Arlathan lived in "harmony" with magic? The only thing we have about Arlathan is a bunch of collected propaganda from the Dalish, claiming their ancient race was "oh so magnificent". I'm willing to bet that it was just as much of a mage tyranny as Tevinter is now.

[LobselVith8]

AshenEndemion wrote...

It isn't invalid.

Whether the Imperium or the Dalish are stable societies is an opinion.  It isn't fact.  You believe they are such, the Chantry doesn't.  And the Chantry has won the argument over the past 700 years everywhere but the Tivinter Imperium (and Par Vollen, but the Qunari don't count, do they?)...

I think there's a difference between whether they're stable societies and whether they should be emulated. The Imperium has existed long before the Andrastian nations, but I wouldn't endorse the pro-slavery regime of the Magisters. The Dalish are different, and the clans are reminiscent of certain Native American societies who were nomadic.

[AngryFrozenWater]

AshenEndemion wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

No.  What I linked to and what I am talkig about IS DG's personal beliefs.  Not that the templars are right or wrong, but that locking away people for what they might do can be considered reasonable and anyone that disasgrees is naive.  He even used that exact word when addressing me.

If I am to be called naive for calling the slaughter of people for a crime they didn't commit to be murder and genocide and that saying that it's considered evil to punish people for what they are rather than what they've done, then I will proudly bear the title of Naive.

-Polaris

So... what you're saying is that there is no reason, none whatsoever, for anyone to be locked away for something they may do in the future?  That is a tad naive.

I would think if someone threatened you with death, that you would want that person locked up... I don't think you would want to be told "locking him up for something he might do in the future is wrong."

I think it is best that you will be locked away. You may be dangeroeus to those from who you think will do something dangerous in the future. Or maybe better. You should be killed. That makes sure you will not do such a thing in the future. It's for your own good. One cannot be careful enough, don't you agree?

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

How exactly are Tevinter and the Dalish stable societies? One is a mage tyranny, the other is a soon to be extinct nomad people....

I think he meant more along the lines of Arlathan for the elves

Or the Dales.

There is that possibility too. Out of curiosity, how long were the Dales allowed to be before the "Exalted March on the heathens" was called?

Three centuries.

[IanPolaris]

AlexXIV wrote...

The fact that is was legal actually speaks more against the templars than if they did something illegal imo. That the Right of Annullment exists in this fashion speaks more about the Chantry and templars than any actions of fanatics or mad/wo)men.

Indeed.  I made that poin sometime ago myself.  The fact it was legally possible for a clearly unhinged knight commander to take legally usurp both her own authority AND that of the grand cleric to slaughter all mages, says a lot about the Chantry and Templar oversight......and none of it is good.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Can I have the source for your claim that the city of Arlathan lived in "harmony" with magic? The only thing we have about Arlathan is a bunch of collected propaganda from the Dalish, claiming their ancient race was "oh so magnificent". I'm willing to bet that it was just as much of a mage tyranny as Tevinter is now.

They were a powerful empire across Thedas that took the full effort of the Imperium to finally conquer and the Magisters feared them so much that they destroyed as much of Arlathan and the ancient Elves as they could (and this is from a group that loves to gain magical knowledge).

Sure the surviving tales are told from a pro-Dalish PoV, but it's clear that Arlathan was:

1. Long lived (ie stable)
2. Magically Powerful

That seem the ancient elves were able to coexist with magic and deal with it's dangers.  We know that Tevinter does (without saying that Tevinter is nice or should be copied).

-Polaris

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The Dalish exist as a stable society

sadly the Dalish cannot be considered a full society because they're separated into clans. However the ancient city of Arlathan fits into your point. They controlled magic and lived in harmony with magic. In fact look at how Merrill defends herself against demons. She says "In the Fade, you have to stay true to yourself" or "only you are real" or something to that effect.

I believe, and this is speculation, that's how all Dalish mages keep themselves safe.

Can I have the source for your claim that the city of Arlathan lived in "harmony" with magic? The only thing we have about Arlathan is a bunch of collected propaganda from the Dalish, claiming their ancient race was "oh so magnificent". I'm willing to bet that it was just as much of a mage tyranny as Tevinter is now.

the fact that they used magic to actually live in their city, build their city, and so forth. Merrill says that all elves had the ability to use magic in the times of Arlathan. However it could be false just as much as it could be true.

Maybe it was as you say, another tyranny. Or maybe it was a great civilization. Who knows. But I wouldn't compare it to Tevinter with a lack of evidence to support it. As such, for the time being, I retract my statement of harmonious living.

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

How exactly are Tevinter and the Dalish stable societies? One is a mage tyranny, the other is a soon to be extinct nomad people....

I think he meant more along the lines of Arlathan for the elves

Or the Dales.

There is that possibility too. Out of curiosity, how long were the Dales allowed to be before the "Exalted March on the heathens" was called?

Three centuries.

yea stability could've existed within the Dales.



I really hope the Chantry burns to the ground. Or the Qunari come and convert everyone. Anaan Esaam Qun.

[PantheraOnca]

Torax wrote...

But every person alive doesn't have the power to control minds.

You could argue bards or other persuasive people have this ability.

Kill people with a thought.

The difference between :

Step 1: Think about killing someone
Step 2: That person dying

and

Step 1: Think about killing someone
Step 2: Stabbing them
Step 3: That person dying

Is minimal.

Or even just convince others to kill themselves.

This is probably the hardest one to recreate without magic, but a sufficiently skilled persuader and a person in dire straights make this possible.

Create fire from nothing.

I sure as hell can't light kindling without a lighter or match, does that make someone who can a mage?

Call in spirits to do you your dirty work.

<Wise-ass comment about chantry and/or maker>

The list goes on and on. A man with a bow maybe able to shoot some people. But he can't alter reality with his mind. A mage can. Hence the fear some characters have. Even if one refuses to think that is possible or consider it in the realm of posibility.

Putting an arrow through someone's neck that wasn't there before sounds like altering reality to me. The only difference is in efficiency and perhaps speed.

It would make me wonder if the banter with Irving and Gregoir was more normal for a circle or not. While both conflicting they seemed more reasonable. Where as in Kirkwall it was the opposite. Be it Idol or Paranoia. She didn't seem to want to cooperate with anyone later on unless it suited her goals. Not Elthina and most definitely not Orsino. To a point so much is lost to us in character development cause we only really learn about her in Act 3. Besides rare references and a cameo more or less in Act 2.

I imagine that Ferelden was the far end of the "work together" spectrum while kirkwall is the other extreme end of the "do not work together at all and basically just try and fight each other" spectrum of circles.

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Well if what we have seen is any indication, two clans could have been potentially annihilated because of mages (Zathrian / Merrill / Marethari).

In the case of Zathrien, he was keeper for centuries.  In the case of Merill, the entire clan decided to drink the Act III anti-mage koolaid (You killed our possessed keeper.  We must kill you, hurr, hurr, darr.....really dumb).

We know, that the clans have survived intact for 7 centuries or so, so that seems stable to me.

-Polaris

[sphinxess]

Doesn't Nevarra have a College of Mages that is no way like a circle?

[tmp7704]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

What if, hypothetically Meredith had gotten her reply the day before Ander's went terrorist on the Chantry and the answer were "No"? Would Meredith have the legal right to defy the Divine's wishes just because she is in the position where she can invoke the right?

I'd guess a "yes" simply because the answer from the Divine received at that point would be concerning state of the Circle/mages as it was week+ prior (given the distance, speed of messengers etc)  If Meredith decided situation since then changed and the Annulment was warranted, she was in right to carry it out.

[LobselVith8]

Torax wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Doesn't every living person, by virtue of being alive, have the capacity to harm others? Isn't that why we have laws and law enforcement? Look at where the Chantry controlled Circles have lead to: open rebellion against the Chantry and the Order of Templars because of what transpired at the Kirkwall Circle.

But every person alive doesn't have the power to control minds. Kill people with a thought. Or even just convince others to kill themselves. Create fire from nothing. Call in spirits to do you your dirty work. The list goes on and on. A man with a bow maybe able to shoot some people. But he can't alter reality with his mind. A mage can. Hence the fear some characters have. Even if one refuses to think that is possible or consider it in the realm of posibility.

Nor do the mages have the authority to command legions of templars, or royal armies under their banner, or even the power to declare an Exalted March against a nation. Different people in Thedas have different degrees of power and authority. After nearly a thousand years of the Chantry controlled Circles, we have an open rebellion by the mages.

Torax wrote...

It would make me wonder if the banter with Irving and Gregoir was more normal for a circle or not. While both conflicting they seemed more reasonable. Where as in Kirkwall it was the opposite. Be it Idol or Paranoia. She didn't seem to want to cooperate with anyone later on unless it suited her goals. Not Elthina and most definitely not Orsino. To a point so much is lost to us in character development cause we only really learn about her in Act 3. Besides rare references and a cameo more or less in Act 2.

It's what I miss from Origins. Even if the protagonist thought mages should be free, we encountered enough good templars to illustrate that they weren't an evil organization. From Lothering to the Alienage, we saw templars who wanted to help. We met mages who were varied and different, from the misguided Jowan to the Tevinter slavers, and a plethora of mages in the Circle Tower who simply wanted to live. DA2 was sorely lacking in balance in their depiction of the mages, especially in Act III.

[AshenEndymion]

IanPolaris wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...
It isn't invalid.

Whether the Imperium or the Dalish are stable societies is an opinion.  It isn't fact.  You believe they are such, the Chantry doesn't.  And the Chantry has won the argument over the past 700 years everywhere but the Tivinter Imperium (and Par Vollen, but the Qunari don't count, do they?)...

Wrong.  It's a fact.  The Dalish have existed in their current form for 700 years or so.  Most nations in Thedas can't boast of that!  Before then, the Kdm of the Dales was stable for three centuris prior to that and ceased to exist only because it was destroyed by an Exalted March of very questionable legality.  The Imperium has existed longer and in much it's present form for almost all of regarded history (only the Dwarves can claim more stability than that).  

See the point?  Just because you are stronger military than another society does not mean you are a better society or that the oher society isn't instrinsically stable.  I am leaving out morality.  I consider the Tevinter Imperium to be an evil realm (even if most of the people and even many of the magisters might not be) but that's neither here or there when talking about how stable it is.

-Polaris

Are you are saying "stable" as in "existing for long periods of time" or "stable" as in "existing without large unrest?"

If it's the former, the Chantry has existed, 900 years.  It is as "stable" as the rest of them....  I don't think the former is something you want to imply.

If it's the latter, Tivinter is not applicable, what with the slave revolts every 50 years and all...  The Dalish could be emulated, but most societies would not want to be nomadic.  The Dales may have been a stable society, but the Chantry did not think so.  The Dalish created unrest amongst the rest of Thedas, and sacked Val Royeaux.

[Torax]

IanPolaris wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...
It isn't invalid.

Whether the Imperium or the Dalish are stable societies is an opinion.  It isn't fact.  You believe they are such, the Chantry doesn't.  And the Chantry has won the argument over the past 700 years everywhere but the Tivinter Imperium (and Par Vollen, but the Qunari don't count, do they?)...

Wrong.  It's a fact.  The Dalish have existed in their current form for 700 years or so.  Most nations in Thedas can't boast of that!  Before then, the Kdm of the Dales was stable for three centuris prior to that and ceased to exist only because it was destroyed by an Exalted March of very questionable legality.  The Imperium has existed longer and in much it's present form for almost all of regarded history (only the Dwarves can claim more stability than that).  

See the point?  Just because you are stronger military than another society does not mean you are a better society or that the oher society isn't instrinsically stable.  I am leaving out morality.  I consider the Tevinter Imperium to be an evil realm (even if most of the people and even many of the magisters might not be) but that's neither here or there when talking about how stable it is.

-Polaris

At least for the oldest and longest civilizations it was the Arlathan elves and the dwarves. Thousands upon thousands of years before the humans arrived. Not much is said of the history of humans before that. But the dwarves were under ground and the elves were above ground. The elves just retreated to arlathan after the Magisters began to push. Even holding some of the elves captive in their dreams. You know that power that the half blood was in DA2? It seems that may have been used by the Magisters to trap and trick Elves in the fade to teach them magic.

Lots of vague references to things of that nature. Like learning Lyrium and the Fade from Elves but learning blood magic from Old Gods in the dreams as well. Not truly sure which came first. But better society is up in the air. None of them are equal. None of them are competely right.

The Imperium loves magic but they also will kill all around them to increase their power if the task requires it.

The Qun is strict and regulates all of their lives. But can also be considered brutal.

The Dwarves have lasted the longest of anyone but their system is so marred in tradition that change only comes by force. For better or worse.

The chantry is younger but spreading since their core belief is once their chant of light is spread across all thedas their creator will return.

The Dalish just travel in packs while trying to gather what they can of their past. rarely do they collect for meetings. For fear enemies would attack them there. Generally lots of elves in the same place seems to cause panic and uprisings. Kind of their history.

Overall there are other nations and beliefs. Rivain doesn't really believe in any gods. That is just not their way compared to others. There is even a portion of their land controlled by the Qunari. Also don't forget the smaller areas. Lands of the free marches. The wilds of fereldon and so on. Quite the fleshed out world just none of it pretty. None of them really having a great solution to magic though. The longest lasting civilization is the race that doesn't do magic. Go figure.

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Well if what we have seen is any indication, two clans could have been potentially annihilated because of mages (Zathrian / Merrill / Marethari).

In the case of Zathrien, he was keeper for centuries.  In the case of Merill, the entire clan decided to drink the Act III anti-mage koolaid (You killed our possessed keeper.  We must kill you, hurr, hurr, darr.....really dumb).

We know, that the clans have survived intact for 7 centuries or so, so that seems stable to me.

-Polaris

The point was, they were not being monitored. 

The keeper became an abomination without her clan knowing, was she so postively sure she can control it forever? Anything could have  happened to set it off. 

I personally am not arguing whether they are more or less stable. They're probably more stable, but numbers and scale play a role in that. But the Dalish, from what we've seen of those 2 examples, have some serious lack of  surveillance.

[tmp7704]

IanPolaris wrote...

Wrong.  It's a fact.  The Dalish have existed in their current form for 700 years or so.  Most nations in Thedas can't boast of that!  Before then, the Kdm of the Dales was stable for three centuris prior to that and ceased to exist only because it was destroyed by an Exalted March of very questionable legality.

Keep on mind the elves of old were supposed to have much longer lifespan and --as side-effect-- their lives and decision-making was done at much slower pace than what's normal for humans. In other words, 100 years of elf lifestyle could easily be equivalent of just 10-20 years of human time, if that.

"Stable existence for 700 years" doesn't look as that much of a feat in these conditions.

Modifié par tmp7704, 09 avril 2011 - 12:06 .

[AshenEndymion]

PantheraOnca wrote...

The difference between :

Step 1: Think about killing someone
Step 2: That person dying

and

Step 1: Think about killing someone
Step 2: Stabbing them
Step 3: That person dying

Is minimal.

And yet... Somehow I think that the difference is the only thing that would be keeping me alive....

[IanPolaris]

Stable means stable. Until now the Chantry system as stable, but that system no longer exists. I have critized the circle system for many things, but stability wasn't one of them. However, it bought that stability be dehumanizing an entire class of people...people that have access to great power. It's called ticking off the dragon and eventially it comes back to burn you. It just took a while.

-Polaris