1072 réponses à ce sujet

[tmp7704]

AshenEndemion wrote...

I disagree that 300 years is not long enough to rebuild enough power...  It's not likely, but it is possible.

World War II was started mere 21 years after the first, and not by the winners.

[IanPolaris]

Torax wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

There is no question wether or not the Dalish sacked Val Royaux. The only thing which is disputed is why the war started. The Dales were an extremely powerful nation, especially for the "short amount" of time they had existed.

We assume they were a really powerful nation. Maybe they didn't put up enough of a fight? Seems more likely they took the chance to flee. Even when they were conquered in Alrathan they did fight a lot and all over. But they eventually retreated to their main city. Outliers hunted after. The Dalish were much the same way. Odds are many left the Dales for survival. Not to be competley killed off and enslaved. Again.

I think it's very safe to infer that the Dales were indeed a massively powerful nation.  Remember that Orlais was the big dog of the time and had extended it's influence far beyond what it is now (including most of the Free Marches).

The Dalish kicked them like a rented mule and forced Imperial Armies all the way back to Val Royaleux which they sacked.  It was then that the Orlais begged the Divine to "pretty please" call an Exalted March on the 'heathens".

-Polaris

[TEWR]

AshenEndemion wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

The Dales may have been a stable society, but the Chantry did not think so. The Dalish created unrest amongst the rest of Thedas, and sacked Val Royeaux.

You really believe that, don't you? From the Pro-Chanry side of the table? The Elves had been given a new homeland for helping Andraste, where they were working to rebuild everything. There is no reason that they would've sacked Val Royeaux when they were in no condition to.

Especially when the Chantry now calls anyone who wants to believe in a different religion or ideology a "heathen". It's "Believe in the Maker or we'll kill you and you'll live in damnation!" Sounds like a collective hive mind religion to me.

The Dales existed for 300 years before the elves revolted, and the Exaulted March was called for... History says that the Dalish elves sacked Val Royeux.  There is no evidence to conclude they did not.  But, then again, history is written by the winner to justify the deeds done.

300 years isn't long enough to rebuild enough power to wage another war, especially against those people who rewarded your help with a portion of the land you once called your own. The bolded is true, and until otherwise stated all we can do is believe. unless we play that part of Thedas history ourselves or talk to someone who was witness to the events and managed to stay alive for centuries beyond centuries, no one can claim one or the other as fact.

That said, I still find it highly illogical for the Dalish Elves to have sacked, and subsequently started a war, on Val Royeaux.

I disagree that 300 years is not long enough to rebuild enough power...  It's not likely, but it is possible.  Ferelden revolted after one Age.  Granted, it was only a revolt (which resulted in independence)... but it only took one Age to build enough power to do so.

There does seem to be agreement that Val Royeaux was sacked by the Dalish elves... But whether they started the war(and why, if they did), however, is questionable.

Ferelden only succeeded because:

• Orlesians were incredibly cocky and arrogant
• Fereldans had Loghain, a battefield tactical savant
• they obtained weapons from various places, some being defeated Orlesian
• They didn't have to rebuild from scratch.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Apollo Starflare wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I think it is best that you will be locked away. You may be dangeroeus to those from who you think will do something dangerous in the future. Or maybe better. You should be killed. That makes sure you will not do such a thing in the future. It's for your own good. One cannot be careful enough, don't you agree?

The thing is, the point isn't to 'lock them away'. It may have gone horribly wrong in some places, perhaps even as a whole, but judging by what we see of the rational people (on both sides) in the Circle the whole point is to provide a safe environment for both Mages and those they may (often unintentionally) harm. Circles are often focused on as prisons, particularly since DA2, but really they are centers of learning and calm for individuals born with a power too powerful to be easily trusted.

Add to this the fact that once you have passed your harrowing you are seemingly granted much more flexibility in regards to leaving the confines of the tower, and can pursue various exploits that take you elsewhere, and it becomes a much less demonstrous prospect.

Now, is the execution of it right as of the time of the games? No, I don't think so. The Chantry and the Templars are terribly flawed in the way they go about both presenting the Circle and dealing with Mages (particularly in certain places). However does that mean the idea of the Circle, of having to live a life differently to others for the good of both yourself and others, I do not think that concept is unsalvagable.

And as for being killed, bear in mind that under the actual rules the only Mages who are supposed to be killed are those possessed. Again, flawed in execution but it's certainly not supposed to be at a drop of a hat. Perhaps the worst aspect of the Circle as it stands is the whole thing surrounding the tranquil. It seems like it gets handed out too often and in a way that has only suceeded in angering other Mages and inciting rebellion (one of Anders' own primary motivators appears to be his opposition to the tranquil process in fact).

Two groups of mages are locked up. There are mages who happen to be a mage from birth. And there are mages who have become blood mages. Both are potentionally dangerous. The blood mages are likely to become dangerous. But if I get my kitchen knife then I am potentionally dangerous as well. Should I be locked away, because having a kitchen knife allows me to commit a murder? In that regard there is no difference between being a mage and someone with a kitchen knife. I think it is best to make sure that the people who lock up the guy with the kitchen knife will be under psychiatric evaluation for a while. What's next? If people with red hair commit more murders than people with blonde hair then should we lock up all those with red hair? Just to be safe? That's what I am saying. It even becomes worse. After Anders' action they are killed because someone else commited a crime. To put it mildly: That's an idiosyncratic decision.

[TEWR]

tmp7704 wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

I disagree that 300 years is not long enough to rebuild enough power...  It's not likely, but it is possible.

World War II was started mere 21 years after the first, and not by the winners.

But did the Germans rebuild their power from scratch, from the very beginning? No. Did the Dales have industrialization that allows them to mass produce things? No.

Really, that comparison does very little.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

I disagree that 300 years is not long enough to rebuild enough power...  It's not likely, but it is possible.

World War II was started mere 21 years after the first, and not by the winners.

But did the Germans rebuild their power from scratch, from the very beginning? No. Did the Dales have industrialization that allows them to mass produce things? No.

Really, that comparison does very little.

They did more or less actually. They were only allowed to keep an absolute minimum of soldiers as their standing force afterwards, and their national infrastructure was completely destroyed. So they did actually more or less have to start from scratch.

300 years is a long time, enough so that you don't have to mass produce anything. They could produce one set of armor, a sword and a bow every day for 300 years, and they would have a 100.000 strong army in 300 years. I'm guessing they produced for more than that, being Elves and all.

[tmp7704]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

But did the Germans rebuild their power from scratch, from the very beginning? No. Did the Dales have industrialization that allows them to mass produce things? No.

No, but 300 years to 20 is a difference of roughly dozen generations to one. It's simply to put in perspective how long time it is. And it's not like the Dales were surrounded by established countries with long history of development, themselves. To the contrary, it was pretty much free-for-all wasteland of leftovers from the beaten Tevinter Imperium. Everyone there was starting from similar point, Orlais included.

[AshenEndymion]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

I disagree that 300 years is not long enough to rebuild enough power...  It's not likely, but it is possible.  Ferelden revolted after one Age.  Granted, it was only a revolt (which resulted in independence)... but it only took one Age to build enough power to do so.

There does seem to be agreement that Val Royeaux was sacked by the Dalish elves... But whether they started the war(and why, if they did), however, is questionable.

Ferelden only succeeded because:

• Orlesians were incredibly cocky and arrogant
• Fereldans had Loghain, a battefield tactical savant
• they obtained weapons from various places, some being defeated Orlesian
• They didn't have to rebuild from scratch.

So... Orlesians are cocky and arrogant, so the Dalish could not have attacked them(Because that's who they attacked first, according to the history books)...  The Dalish could never have had a battlefield tactical savant, because they are only elves....  The Dalish could never have gotten weapons from various places, they had to have made their own, because they are elves, and could never handle weapons made by shemlen...

Really, the only thing you have going for you is the "rebuild from scratch" bit.  But with the technology available to all, somehow I don't think that is such a big deal.  What with 300 years passing between the beginning of the rebuilding process to the war.

[TEWR]

AshenEndemion wrote...

So... Orlesians are cocky and arrogant, so the Dalish could not have attacked them(Because that's who they attacked first, according to the history books)... 

I'm not saying they couldn't. I'm saying it's highly illogical.

The Dalish could never have had a battlefield tactical savant, because they are only elves.... 

I'd like to know where I said they couldn't have a tactical savant, or where I said the fact that they are elves diminishes everything. Seriously, where did I start being racist towards elves in this discussion?

The Dalish could never have gotten weapons from various places, they had to have made their own, because they are elves, and could never handle weapons made by shemlen...

again, I'm not saying they couldn't, but the elves have too much pride to use Shemlen weapons. They would rather craft their own because it is what their ancestors did.

Really, the only thing you have going for you is the "rebuild from scratch" bit.  But with the technology available to all, somehow I don't think that is such a big deal.  What with 300 years passing between the beginning of the rebuilding process to the war.

Even if they did rebuild their army and strength to an appropriate level, attacking Orlais to obtain more of anything is foolhardy because of the vast land difference in size and strength of numbers. And last I checked, elves wanted peace and just to be left the **** alone.


My point for Ferelden vs. Orlais is that Orlesians see Fereldans as nothing more than uncivilized dog lovers who wallow around in filth. In their minds, they weren't a threat. And even now they still see them as such if you take on the King Alistair Meeting quest in DA2

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 09 avril 2011 - 01:04 .

[AshenEndymion]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

Really, the only thing you have going for you is the "rebuild from scratch" bit.  But with the technology available to all, somehow I don't think that is such a big deal.  What with 300 years passing between the beginning of the rebuilding process to the war.

Even if they did rebuild their army and strength to an appropriate level, attacking Orlais to obtain more of anything is foolhardy because of the vast land difference in size and strength of numbers. And last I checked, elves wanted peace and just to be left the **** alone.


My point for Ferelden vs. Orlais is that Orlesians see Fereldans as nothing more than uncivilized dog lovers who wallow around in filth. In their minds, they weren't a threat. And even now they still see them as such if you take on the King Alistair Meeting quest in DA2

And Orlais (or any humans, for that matter) would have seen the Dalish better than Fereldens?  And a threat?

Attacking Orlais may be foolhardy, but we don't know why the war started.  If the Dalish attacked first, they attacked Red Crossing for a reason.  Why?  Only the Maker knows.

It would be rather easy to see the Dalish as not doing anything, and having the Exaulted March called on them for no reason.  But the Dalish (successfully) sacked Val Royeaux while they were at war with Orlais.  And I don't believe Orlesians held the elves back then in higher regard than they currently hold Fereldens...  My point is that they had 300 years, and took control of the largest city outside of Tivinter.... They weren't weak, by any stretch of the imagination....

[TEWR]

AshenEndemion wrote...


And Orlais (or any humans, for that matter) would have seen the Dalish better than Fereldens?  And a threat?

Considering The Dalish helped to liberate everyone from the Tevinters, yes. If they were given their own land, and if as you believe rebuilt their army to a sufficient level of power how could they not be seen as a threat. Remember Ferelden was still just a bunch of clans who united for one purpose. They were uncivilized in the eyes of Orlais, and even after Tevinter fell, would only be seen as slightly civilized at best.

Attacking Orlais may be foolhardy, but we don't know why the war started.  If the Dalish attacked first, they attacked Red Crossing for a reason.  Why?  Only the Maker knows.

I know. And I never once tried to say they never attacked first. I said it was highly illogical. It can't be ruled out, but is far from likely.

It would be rather easy to see the Dalish as not doing anything, and having the Exalted March called on them for no reason.  But the Dalish (successfully) sacked Val Royeaux while they were at war with Orlais.  And I don't believe Orlesians held the elves back then in higher regard than they currently hold Fereldens...  My point is that they had 300 years, and took control of the largest city outside of Tivinter.... They weren't weak, by any stretch of the imagination....

So the Dalish can't successfully sack Val Royeaux after Orlais started a war? It's impossible for them to have a military victory?

I believe Orlesians did hold elves in higher regard, because they actually came from a civilization. An advanced civilization, that unfortunately fell to the Tevinters because the Tevinters had dragons, demons, and magic, along with an army. Elves only had magic and an army, and one dragon is hard enough to take down, let alone vast droves of them.

I don't think I ever called them weak. But I did call them not strong enough to start a war with the hopes of winning.

[AshenEndymion]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I don't think I ever called them weak. But I did call them not strong enough to start a war with the hopes of winning.

And I would call sacking Val Royeaux a sign that the Dalish had hope of winning a war they started against Orlais...  They were only beat down when the Chantry declared an Exhaulted March against them after that point.

Modifié par AshenEndemion, 09 avril 2011 - 01:33 .

[TEWR]

AshenEndemion wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I don't think I ever called them weak. But I did call them not strong enough to start a war with the hopes of winning.

And I would call sacking Val Royeaux a sign that the Dalish had hope of winning a war they started against Orlais...  They were only beat down when the Chantry declared an Exhaulted March against them after that point.

one military victory, a surprise one at that, hardly constitutes having enough strength to win a war

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 09 avril 2011 - 01:36 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

IF you look at where Val Royaux is situated in Orlais and compare it to where the border to the Dales is (were), you will se that the Dalish sacking Val Royaux was not just a military victory. The Dales would undoubtably have won the war if the rest of Thedas had not intervened.

[Peer of the Empire]

Torax wrote...
Attacking Anders could be problematic. If she attacked him then and there, she could have risked having to fight the champion and all his companions first. Better to leave him for last in that case. Since you still would want the Champion aiding you possibly.

If the Champion defends Anders then she really has a problem.  I was surprised she didn't slice his head off then and there.

[RazorrX]

One of the problems is you have lore (which it seems is actually all written from certain perspectives, and thus not gospel) and game. The two do not always agree. (IE the mage player character and party NEVER go abomination, can freely use blood magic, etc.)

But if you go by the lore then the Dales rose up and attacked the human settlements because the Chantry was sending 'missionaries' to the dales to convert them. Now this is the Chantry, and not the Andrastians. When the Chantry was formed, the concept of 'missionaries' was pretty simple. IF the people convert, leave them alone, IF they do not you kill them until they do. The Templars were originally used to crush resistance to the chant.

"The Chantry is urged by its own dogma to proselytize forcefully, if need be. The Chantry is very much a militaristic organization and has needed its armed templars to exert control over magical corruption and to root out the heresies that were common throughout the first centuries of its existence. The teachings of Andraste had many followers prior to the Chantry's official creation, and in mamy places those teachings took on slightly different forms - different interpretations on the role of magic and on exactly what were the crimes of mankind against the Maker and how (if at all) mankind could earn his forgiveness. These heresies had to be crushed if the chant was to be one united song. So, too, did the Chantry need to battle different faiths such as the remaining worship of the old gods and the pagan beliefs of the elves."

So technically, the Chantry started it.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

IF you look at where Val Royaux is situated in Orlais and compare it to where the border to the Dales is (were), you will se that the Dalish sacking Val Royaux was not just a military victory. The Dales would undoubtably have won the war if the rest of Thedas had not intervened.

The reason why they even went to war is because their want of neutrality through the Second Blight (honestly I can't understand them being neutral during the BLIGHT) led to increased hostilities. Ultimately, who started the war is unknown. Looking at the Dales article on the DA wiki, border skirmishes were prevalent. It can be argued that whoever started the border struggle first started the war, as this eventually led up to the attack on Red Crossing.

But I wouldn't put it past the Chantry to have started the war because the elves wanted to worship their gods. The Chantry is corrupt, even with the painted image of it being holy, sacred, and nice to all the people of Thedas. Try as they might, their corruption runs deep.

[efrgfhnm_]

You already made a thread were you constantly assumed you know what the developers were saying better then they did and you failed to win any arguments.
Now you feel the need to do this again? Seriously, just shut up

[Peer of the Empire]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
Two groups of mages are locked up. There are mages who happen to be a mage from birth. And there are mages who have become blood mages. Both are potentionally dangerous. The blood mages are likely to become dangerous. But if I get my kitchen knife then I am potentionally dangerous as well. Should I be locked away, because having a kitchen knife allows me to commit a murder? In that regard there is no difference between being a mage and someone with a kitchen knife. I think it is best to make sure that the people who lock up the guy with the kitchen knife will be under psychiatric evaluation for a while. What's next? If people with red hair commit more murders than people with blonde hair then should we lock up all those with red hair? Just to be safe? That's what I am saying. It even becomes worse. After Anders' action they are killed because someone else commited a crime. To put it mildly: That's an idiosyncratic decision.

It is a matter of intent.  It is best to compare mages to violently psychotic patients.  At any time a mage may be possessed, animated by a spirit of destruction.  It is to those who have strong and sound minds, wills, who pass their Harrowing who are allowed to exist.  Then, there is the temptation of power, which, all else being equal, a person with magic is somewhat better equipped for than a person without.

Those who pursue blood magic have shown their dangerous tendencies.

Modifié par Peer of the Empire, 09 avril 2011 - 01:50 .

[TEWR]

RazorrX wrote...

One of the problems is you have lore (which it seems is actually all written from certain perspectives, and thus not gospel) and game. The two do not always agree. (IE the mage player character and party NEVER go abomination, can freely use blood magic, etc.)

But if you go by the lore then the Dales rose up and attacked the human settlements because the Chantry was sending 'missionaries' to the dales to convert them. Now this is the Chantry, and not the Andrastians. When the Chantry was formed, the concept of 'missionaries' was pretty simple. IF the people convert, leave them alone, IF they do not you kill them until they do. The Templars were originally used to crush resistance to the chant.

"The Chantry is urged by its own dogma to proselytize forcefully, if need be. The Chantry is very much a militaristic organization and has needed its armed templars to exert control over magical corruption and to root out the heresies that were common throughout the first centuries of its existence. The teachings of Andraste had many followers prior to the Chantry's official creation, and in mamy places those teachings took on slightly different forms - different interpretations on the role of magic and on exactly what were the crimes of mankind against the Maker and how (if at all) mankind could earn his forgiveness. These heresies had to be crushed if the chant was to be one united song. So, too, did the Chantry need to battle different faiths such as the remaining worship of the old gods and the pagan beliefs of the elves."

So technically, the Chantry started it.

THIS

[TEWR]

I'd like to take back my statement though now about the Dalish being unable to win. After evidence of Orlais recovering from the Second Blight which nearly destroyed them, the Dalish did have a fairly good chance of winning.

had the Second Blight occurred somewhere else though and Orlais was left intact, the Dalish would've lost.

[EmperorSahlertz]

RazorrX wrote...

One of the problems is you have lore (which it seems is actually all written from certain perspectives, and thus not gospel) and game. The two do not always agree. (IE the mage player character and party NEVER go abomination, can freely use blood magic, etc.)

But if you go by the lore then the Dales rose up and attacked the human settlements because the Chantry was sending 'missionaries' to the dales to convert them. Now this is the Chantry, and not the Andrastians. When the Chantry was formed, the concept of 'missionaries' was pretty simple. IF the people convert, leave them alone, IF they do not you kill them until they do. The Templars were originally used to crush resistance to the chant.

"The Chantry is urged by its own dogma to proselytize forcefully, if need be. The Chantry is very much a militaristic organization and has needed its armed templars to exert control over magical corruption and to root out the heresies that were common throughout the first centuries of its existence. The teachings of Andraste had many followers prior to the Chantry's official creation, and in mamy places those teachings took on slightly different forms - different interpretations on the role of magic and on exactly what were the crimes of mankind against the Maker and how (if at all) mankind could earn his forgiveness. These heresies had to be crushed if the chant was to be one united song. So, too, did the Chantry need to battle different faiths such as the remaining worship of the old gods and the pagan beliefs of the elves."

So technically, the Chantry started it.

Uhm, no? All the Chantry did was send its missionaries into the Dales. The Dalish rulers decided to forcefully expel them and deny their own people to choice. So techincally the Dalish started it. (see what I did there)

We don't know who, or what started the war. What we do know is that it happened, and that Orlais was the underdog against the Dales.

[WhiteKnyght]

AshenEndemion wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

What if, hypothetically Meredith had gotten her reply the day before Ander's went terrorist on the Chantry and the answer were "No"? Would Meredith have the legal right to defy the Divine's wishes just because she is in the position where she can invoke the right?

Hypothetically?  Yes.  Meredith could still invoke the right.

If Meredith invoked the right, and 20 seconds later a messenger arrived with a letter from the Divine saying "no," then Meredith would have problems....

Actually I don't think she could. Even if the Grand Cleric IS dead and Meredith is left in charge of Kirkwall's Chantry that doesn't give her the right to disobey orders from someone she is arguably sworn to obey.

[Paeyne]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Paeyne wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Read the bolded words.  The difference between a known, certain threat (whichTyphoid Mary willfully ignored which makes her culpable) and a possible threat that's never been quantified (only fear-mongered by the Chantry) is all the difference in the world especially when we know that societies can contain any possible danger without locking away mages (because several do just that).

-Polaris

I am sure that the distinction would be a great comfort to the survivors or Redcliffe

Considering the Circle of Magi can be brought in to resolve the dilemma that happened because of the anti-mage ideals of the Chantry that lead to the pious Arlessa Isolde wanting her son to be taught not to be a mage, I'm sure they would have appreciated if there was a better solution than the current system that lead to the deaths of some of the people in Redcliffe.

Oh I agree with you absolutely LobselVith8,  The fact that mages need to be monitored does not mean that the current system does it well at all.  They are taken from their family never to be seen again.  They are treated with suspicion and condemnation all their lives.  The Templars current system is flawed in virtually every way.  I would go so far as to say that many of the problems they have are of their own making.  

That doesn't in any way alter the fact that mages are dangerous and need to be monitored.  I think the Circle is necessary.  Templars need to start working with the Circled instead of this adversarial guard position.

[AshenEndymion]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

What if, hypothetically Meredith had gotten her reply the day before Ander's went terrorist on the Chantry and the answer were "No"? Would Meredith have the legal right to defy the Divine's wishes just because she is in the position where she can invoke the right?

Hypothetically?  Yes.  Meredith could still invoke the right.

If Meredith invoked the right, and 20 seconds later a messenger arrived with a letter from the Divine saying "no," then Meredith would have problems....

Actually I don't think she could. Even if the Grand Cleric IS dead and Meredith is left in charge of Kirkwall's Chantry that doesn't give her the right to disobey orders from someone she is arguably sworn to obey.

But it's not disobeying orders.  In theory, if she got a message saying her request was denied, and the situation changed in any way (like the Grand Cleric dying), that could be enough to change the Divine's mind.  And thus, the person with the local authority(Meredith) would be allowed to make the decision could approve the Right of Annulment.  The Divine is only making her ruling based on the information that was provided the Grand Cleric when the Grand Cleric denied the Right of Annulment (if there was more information that would help, why not provide that to the Grand Cleric herself?).  Any change, or new information, that could concievably make the Grand Cleric decide the Right of Annulment was worth implimenting, would make such an order not be in violation of the Divine's decision.

Even if she got a message from the Divine 20 seconds after her announcement, it may still not be enough, because the information provided to the Divine by Meredith would not include the new information that changed the situation (the Grand Cleric dying).  But it would have given pause, because it may have been enough for Cullen (and some other Templars) to go from "That's not really necessary, is it?" to "We can't do this right now.  We should contain them all and think for a minute."