1072 réponses à ce sujet

[AngryFrozenWater]

Peer of the Empire wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
Two groups of mages are locked up. There are mages who happen to be a mage from birth. And there are mages who have become blood mages. Both are potentionally dangerous. The blood mages are likely to become dangerous. But if I get my kitchen knife then I am potentionally dangerous as well. Should I be locked away, because having a kitchen knife allows me to commit a murder? In that regard there is no difference between being a mage and someone with a kitchen knife. I think it is best to make sure that the people who lock up the guy with the kitchen knife will be under psychiatric evaluation for a while. What's next? If people with red hair commit more murders than people with blonde hair then should we lock up all those with red hair? Just to be safe? That's what I am saying. It even becomes worse. After Anders' action they are killed because someone else commited a crime. To put it mildly: That's an idiosyncratic decision.

It is a matter of intent.  It is best to compare mages to violently psychotic patients.  At any time a mage may be possessed, animated by a spirit of destruction.  It is to those who have strong and sound minds, wills, who pass their Harrowing who are allowed to exist.  Then, there is the temptation of power, which, all else being equal, a person with magic is somewhat better equipped for than a person without.

Those who pursue blood magic have shown their dangerous tendencies.

Intent? A mage is born as a mage. There is no intent there. And... It is "best to compare mages to violently psychotic patients"? Why? Mages happen to be just mages. Blood mages are perhaps the ones to worry about. But there is no magical law that states that any mage will be come dangerous or that any mage will become a blood mage. You simply cannot know. What is happening is that some mages become dangerous and therefor all are locked away. That's not logic. That's terror. It's like some humans become serial killers, therefor all humans should be locked up... Wait, well... That's impossible. But the main idea behind it still holds.

[AshenEndymion]

It's like some humans become serial killers, therefor all humans should be locked up... Wait, well... That's impossible. But the main idea behind it still holds.

Actually, I would say that it's more like some humans become humans that can kill people with their minds, and therefore all humans that can kill people with their minds should be locked up.

Wait... no... that's impossible.  No, not the idea that they should all be locked up, but the idea that humans can kill people with their minds.  And because of that, situations in Thedas can't exactly be compared to situations on Earth, can they?

[khevan]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
...[snip]... But if I get my kitchen knife then I am potentionally dangerous as well. Should I be locked away, because having a kitchen knife allows me to commit a murder?  In that regard there is no difference between being a mage and someone with a kitchen knife. ...[/snip]

If the knife you held had the ability to make you commit murder, then yes, it's justified for me to want you locked away for my own safety.  A mage, by virtue of being a mage, is faced with the constant temptation of spirits within the Fade (as shown during the Harrowing of a DA:O mage in the Origin story).  Many many mages can and do go their entire lives resisting that temptation, but many do not, and become maleficar, abominations and the like.  The problem is, there is no way to predict who will sucumb to temptation, and because who they are makes them inherently susceptible to possession, it isn't as simple as saying that someone with a knife is potentially dangerous.

That is true, but mages are inherently much MUCH more dangerous than a random person with a knife.  That fact must be taken into account.

[TEWR]

khevan wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
...[snip]... But if I get my kitchen knife then I am potentionally dangerous as well. Should I be locked away, because having a kitchen knife allows me to commit a murder?  In that regard there is no difference between being a mage and someone with a kitchen knife. ...[/snip]

If the knife you held had the ability to make you commit murder, then yes, it's justified for me to want you locked away for my own safety.  A mage, by virtue of being a mage, is faced with the constant temptation of spirits within the Fade (as shown during the Harrowing of a DA:O mage in the Origin story).  Many many mages can and do go their entire lives resisting that temptation, but many do not, and become maleficar, abominations and the like.  The problem is, there is no way to predict who will sucumb to temptation, and because who they are makes them inherently susceptible to possession, it isn't as simple as saying that someone with a knife is potentially dangerous.

That is true, but mages are inherently much MUCH more dangerous than a random person with a knife.  That fact must be taken into account.

and what if, theoretically speaking, a way to discern the bad eggs from the good eggs did come into existence? What then?

Don't get me wrong, I don't see this as ever happening. But what if it did?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 09 avril 2011 - 03:05 .

[WhiteKnyght]

AshenEndemion wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

What if, hypothetically Meredith had gotten her reply the day before Ander's went terrorist on the Chantry and the answer were "No"? Would Meredith have the legal right to defy the Divine's wishes just because she is in the position where she can invoke the right?

Hypothetically?  Yes.  Meredith could still invoke the right.

If Meredith invoked the right, and 20 seconds later a messenger arrived with a letter from the Divine saying "no," then Meredith would have problems....

Actually I don't think she could. Even if the Grand Cleric IS dead and Meredith is left in charge of Kirkwall's Chantry that doesn't give her the right to disobey orders from someone she is arguably sworn to obey.

But it's not disobeying orders.  In theory, if she got a message saying her request was denied, and the situation changed in any way (like the Grand Cleric dying), that could be enough to change the Divine's mind.  And thus, the person with the local authority(Meredith) would be allowed to make the decision could approve the Right of Annulment.  The Divine is only making her ruling based on the information that was provided the Grand Cleric when the Grand Cleric denied the Right of Annulment (if there was more information that would help, why not provide that to the Grand Cleric herself?).  Any change, or new information, that could concievably make the Grand Cleric decide the Right of Annulment was worth implimenting, would make such an order not be in violation of the Divine's decision.

Even if she got a message from the Divine 20 seconds after her announcement, it may still not be enough, because the information provided to the Divine by Meredith would not include the new information that changed the situation (the Grand Cleric dying).  But it would have given pause, because it may have been enough for Cullen (and some other Templars) to go from "That's not really necessary, is it?" to "We can't do this right now.  We should contain them all and think for a minute."

I doubt the Divine would authorize the slaughter of the Circle for a crime that wasn't theirs. Meredith wanted any type of validation for her own zealousy and any excuse to slaughter the kind of people she hated.

Meredith = Hitler

The Right of Annulment was created for when the Circle of Magi goes out of control and there is no hope of bringing it back into line. Not to be a sanctioned slaughter invoked on a person's whim.

[TEWR]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Meredith = Hitler

And for some reason I'm imagining Meredith with a Hitler mustache

[IanPolaris]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Meredith = Hitler

And for some reason I'm imagining Meredith with a Hitler mustache

But she'd be almost a perfecf posterchild for the "mother of the new master race" per that lunatic....although the thought of Meridith being anyone's mother gives me the heebie-jeebies.

As an aside, I love sacastic-Hawke during that final confrontation when he says, "Hey you two, if you don't cut it out people will talk....."  I just about rolled over in laughter. Could you imagine Orsino + Meridith ..... ?

-Polaris

[WhiteKnyght]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Meredith = Hitler

And for some reason I'm imagining Meredith with a Hitler mustache

But she'd be almost a perfecf posterchild for the "mother of the new master race" per that lunatic....although the thought of Meridith being anyone's mother gives me the heebie-jeebies.

As an aside, I love sacastic-Hawke during that final confrontation when he says, "Hey you two, if you don't cut it out people will talk....."  I just about rolled over in laughter. Could you imagine Orsino + Meridith ..... ?

-Polaris

You know, if angry/hate sex is really better than other sex. Then the sex between those two would be legendary.

[TEWR]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Meredith = Hitler

And for some reason I'm imagining Meredith with a Hitler mustache

But she'd be almost a perfecf posterchild for the "mother of the new master race" per that lunatic....although the thought of Meridith being anyone's mother gives me the heebie-jeebies.

As an aside, I love sacastic-Hawke during that final confrontation when he says, "Hey you two, if you don't cut it out people will talk....."  I just about rolled over in laughter. Could you imagine Orsino + Meridith ..... ?

-Polaris

I just love being a smart-ass in general.

In Gamlen's Greatest Treasure one of the funniest lines (for me anyway) is when the guy at the end says "He killed Mekel!"

"What's a Mekel?"

The Grey Nayr wrote...

You know, if angry/hate sex is really better than other sex. Then the sex between those two would be legendary.

Are we talking Pre-Harvestino Ritual or Post-Harvestino Ritual here?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 09 avril 2011 - 03:33 .

[WhiteKnyght]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

You know, if angry/hate sex is really better than other sex. Then the sex between those two would be legendary.

Are we talking Pre-Harvestino Ritual or Post-Harvestino Ritual here?

"What's a Mekel?"

Probably before, unless you have a monster fetish.

[AshenEndymion]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

I doubt the Divine would authorize the slaughter of the Circle for a crime that wasn't theirs. Meredith wanted any type of validation for her own zealousy and any excuse to slaughter the kind of people she hated.

The Circle wasn't annulled for committing the crime... It was annulled because the crime was committed.  There is a distinction between the two.

The Right of Annulment was created for when the Circle of Magi goes out of control and there is no hope of bringing it back into line. Not to be a sanctioned slaughter invoked on a person's whim.

A Circle of Magi that is headed by a blood mage.   One would think that said circle is beyond saving.  The Annulment was justified prior to the Cleric's death.  After her death the Annulment is still justified, and it was carried out.

Modifié par AshenEndemion, 09 avril 2011 - 03:39 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

You know, if angry/hate sex is really better than other sex. Then the sex between those two would be legendary.

Are we talking Pre-Harvestino Ritual or Post-Harvestino Ritual here?

Idolified Meredith with soul edge + Harbinger Orsino =

[TEWR]

AshenEndemion wrote...


The Circle wasn't annulled for committing the crime... It was annulled because the crime was committed.  There is a distinction between the two..

and yet both are slaughter. No matter how much you try to, Meredith's actions will never be justified.

A Circle of Magi that is headed by a blood mage.   One would think that said circle is beyond saving.  The Annulment was justified prior to the Cleric's death.  After her death the Snnulment is still justified, and it was carried out.

And no one even knew he was a blood mage, so no one could say the Circle was beyond saving. Orsino did very idiotic things (I'm looking at you Quentin), but no one knew he was responsible for it, be it directly or indirectly.

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

You know, if angry/hate sex is really better than other sex. Then the sex between those two would be legendary.

Are we talking Pre-Harvestino Ritual or Post-Harvestino Ritual here?

Idolified Meredith with soul edge + Harbinger Orsino =

• And people thought Anders and Justice merging was horrible and despicable.
• Badass, what's this from?

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Redux
From Soul Calibur. Since most compare Meredith's evil sword to Nightmare's soul edge, it's only fitting she plus the other lunatic Orsino would be like nightmare's ultimate evolution (nightterror)

[AshenEndymion]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...


The Circle wasn't annulled for committing the crime... It was annulled because the crime was committed.  There is a distinction between the two..

and yet both are slaughter. No matter how much you try to, Meredith's actions will never be justified.

All Rights of Annulment are slaughters.  You claim different?
The previous 17 Rights of Annulments were slaughters and also justified by the Chantry.  To claim Merediths would not be justified only because it was a slaughter seems rather silly.

A Circle of Magi that is headed by a blood mage.   One would think that said circle is beyond saving.  The Annulment was justified prior to the Cleric's death.  After her death the Annulment is still justified, and it was carried out.

And no one even knew he was a blood mage, so no one could say the Circle was beyond saving. Orsino did very idiotic things (I'm looking at you Quentin), but no one knew he was responsible for it, be it directly or indirectly.

Meredith suspected his involvment with Quentin, and Orsino confirmed it in front of Hawke....  There are investigations into the Annulments by the Chantry to determine whether they were truly justified.  When the evidence shows that Orsion was a blood mage after all (because he did use blood magic) would the Divine condemn Meredith for invoking the Right of Annulment, or would she condemn Meredith for not asking for it sooner?

Modifié par AshenEndemion, 09 avril 2011 - 03:49 .

[LobselVith8]

AshenEndemion wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

I doubt the Divine would authorize the slaughter of the Circle for a crime that wasn't theirs. Meredith wanted any type of validation for her own zealousy and any excuse to slaughter the kind of people she hated.

The Circle wasn't annulled for committing the crime... It was annulled because the crime was committed.  There is a distinction between the two.

By a former Grey Warden who wasn't a member of the Kirkwall Circle.

AshenEndemion wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

The Right of Annulment was created for when the Circle of Magi goes out of control and there is no hope of bringing it back into line. Not to be a sanctioned slaughter invoked on a person's whim.

A Circle of Magi that is headed by a blood mage.   One would think that said circle is beyond saving.  The Annulment was justified prior to the Cleric's death.  After her death the Annulment is still justified, and it was carried out.

The entire Circle should be condemned because of one solitary man? And there's no evidence that murdering an entire group of people based on the desire of a mentally unbalanced drug addict who is listening to a Lyrium Idol was ever justified.

[TEWR]

All Rights of Annulment are slaughters. You claim different?
The previous 17 Rights of Annulments were slaughters and also justified by the Chantry. To claim Merediths would not only because it was a slaughter seems rather silly.

Those were different. Those were supposedly justified. The Circles then were supposedly beyond saving (We really don't know, but for the basis of this we'll assume they were). This is a needless slaughter, one enacted by a zealous woman whose paranoia ran deep prior to her obtaining the idol.  Even had Meredith found out Orsino was a blood mage, he was one man. Easily able to be brought down and arrested, made Tranquil, and the Circle is, well what do you know, saved..

Meredith suspected his involvment with Quentin

Did I.... did I miss something? I'd like to know where you got that. Meredith only says "Wasn't your own mother killed by a blood mage?"

A Right of Annulment must be enacted with proof readily available. You cannot enact it and then find out everything, because you only enacted it on a hunch at best.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 09 avril 2011 - 04:01 .

[LobselVith8]

AshenEndemion wrote...

All Rights of Annulment are slaughters.  You claim different?
The previous 17 Rights of Annulments were slaughters and also justified by the Chantry.  To claim Merediths would not be justified only because it was a slaughter seems rather silly.

Doesn't this illustrate the problem with the Chantry and the templars ruling over the mages when the slaughter of an entire population of mages for something they had nothing to do with would be jusitified in their eyes?

[AshenEndymion]

LobselVith8 wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

I doubt the Divine would authorize the slaughter of the Circle for a crime that wasn't theirs. Meredith wanted any type of validation for her own zealousy and any excuse to slaughter the kind of people she hated.

The Circle wasn't annulled for committing the crime... It was annulled because the crime was committed.  There is a distinction between the two.

By a former Grey Warden who wasn't a member of the Kirkwall Circle.

Yes.  Anders is the one who committed the crime.

But the Circle was annulled because the crime was committed.  Not because they did it.  If the crime wasn't committed, the Grand Cleric would still be alive, and the Circle would not be annulled.

AshenEndemion wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

The Right of Annulment was created for when the Circle of Magi goes out of control and there is no hope of bringing it back into line. Not to be a sanctioned slaughter invoked on a person's whim.

A Circle of Magi that is headed by a blood mage.   One would think that said circle is beyond saving.  The Annulment was justified prior to the Cleric's death.  After her death the Annulment is still justified, and it was carried out.

The entire Circle should be condemned because of one solitary man? And there's no evidence that murdering an entire group of people based on the desire of a mentally unbalanced drug addict who is listening to a Lyrium Idol was ever justified.

The Circle wasn't asked to be annulled prior to that point just because of Orsino, or a single incident for that matter....

[AngryFrozenWater]

khevan wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
...[snip]... But if I get my kitchen knife then I am potentionally dangerous as well. Should I be locked away, because having a kitchen knife allows me to commit a murder?  In that regard there is no difference between being a mage and someone with a kitchen knife. ...[/snip]

If the knife you held had the ability to make you commit murder, then yes, it's justified for me to want you locked away for my own safety.  A mage, by virtue of being a mage, is faced with the constant temptation of spirits within the Fade (as shown during the Harrowing of a DA:O mage in the Origin story).  Many many mages can and do go their entire lives resisting that temptation, but many do not, and become maleficar, abominations and the like.  The problem is, there is no way to predict who will sucumb to temptation, and because who they are makes them inherently susceptible to possession, it isn't as simple as saying that someone with a knife is potentially dangerous.

That is true, but mages are inherently much MUCH more dangerous than a random person with a knife.  That fact must be taken into account.

The problem lies not with the mages or the guy with the kitchen knife. In your reply it's the temptation part that is the problem. It is totally subjective and cannot be proven to be applied in the future. It is the fear of that temptation that makes you decide to lock them away.

If the mage fears that he will be tempted to use blood magic in the future then it is best to take action. However, if an outsider does not know what is going on in the mage's mind then locking that mage up because the outsider fears the mage might be tempted to use blood magic doesn't make sense. The alleged temptation does not prove that the mage is tempted to do so, nor does it prove that the mage is dangerous.

Is a mage more dangerous than the guy with the kitchen knife? I don't think so. If you are killed does it matter that you are killed by magic or by a kitchen knife? Death is death.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 09 avril 2011 - 04:06 .

[AshenEndymion]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

All Rights of Annulment are slaughters. You claim different?
The previous 17 Rights of Annulments were slaughters and also justified by the Chantry. To claim Merediths would not only because it was a slaughter seems rather silly.

Those were different. Those were supposedly justified. The Circles then were supposedly beyond saving (We really don't know, but for the basis of this we'll assume they were). This is a needless slaughter, one enacted by a zealous woman whose paranoia ran deep prior to her obtaining the idol.  Even had Meredith found out Orsino was a blood mage, he was one man. Easily able to be brought down and arrested, made Tranquil, and the Circle is, well what do you know, saved..

The other Rights of Annulment were probably "needless slaughter" as well.  The justification is there.  Whether you agree really doesn't matter.  Only that the Divine does.  She (All the Divines before her) agreed with the last 17.  Why so quick to assume she won't agree to this one?

Meredith suspected his involvment with Quentin

Did I.... did I miss something? I'd like to know where you got that. Meredith only says "Wasn't your own mother killed by a blood mage?"

A Right of Annulment must be enacted with proof readily available. You cannot enact it and then find out everything, because you only enacted it on a hunch at best.

Correct, I was mistaken.  I rewatched the ending sequence with Orsino (pro-templar) and Orsino offers the information unbidden.  Though Meredith calls him a Blood Mage, he denies it, then uses blood magic.

Modifié par AshenEndemion, 09 avril 2011 - 04:06 .

[TEWR]

Yes. Anders is the one who committed the crime.

But the Circle was annulled because the crime was committed. Not because they did it. If the crime wasn't committed, the Grand Cleric would still be alive, and the Circle would not be annulled.

What kind of logic is that? "Because a random mage did it, we should kill all nearby mages to show how powerful we are!"? You'll have to forgive me if I bash my head against the wall for thinking that's the dumbest argument I've read.

The other Rights of Annulment were probably "needless slaughter" as well.  The justification is there.  Whether you agree really doesn't matter.  Only that the Divine does.  She agreed with the last 17.  Why so quick to assume she won't agree to this one?

I could ask you a similar question. Why so quick to assume she will agree to this one? Justification doesn't just mean the Divine goes "Yea sure don't worry about it."

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 09 avril 2011 - 04:07 .

[AshenEndymion]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Yes. Anders is the one who committed the crime.

But the Circle was annulled because the crime was committed. Not because they did it. If the crime wasn't committed, the Grand Cleric would still be alive, and the Circle would not be annulled.

What kind of logic is that? "Because a random mage did it, we should kill all nearby mages to show how powerful we are!"? You'll have to forgive me if I bash my head against the wall for thinking that's the dumbest argument I've read.

The Circle is not being annulled for killing the Grand Cleric.

• Meredith wants the Circle annulled for their offenses prior to Anders killing the Grand Cleric.
• Anders killed the Grand Cleric.
• Because the Grand Cleric is dead, Meredith can authorize the Right of Annulment.

It is not for the death.  It is because of the death that the Circle is annulled.

[TEWR]

AshenEndemion wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Yes. Anders is the one who committed the crime.

But the Circle was annulled because the crime was committed. Not because they did it. If the crime wasn't committed, the Grand Cleric would still be alive, and the Circle would not be annulled.

What kind of logic is that? "Because a random mage did it, we should kill all nearby mages to show how powerful we are!"? You'll have to forgive me if I bash my head against the wall for thinking that's the dumbest argument I've read.

The Circle is not being annulled for killing the Grand Cleric.

• Meredith wants the Circle annulled for their offenses prior to Anders killing the Grand Cleric.
• Anders killed the Grand Cleric.
• Because the Grand Cleric is dead, Meredith can authorize the Right of Annulment.

It is not for the death.  It is because of the death that the Circle is annulled.

So.... because she now has the power and authority to enact the Right of Annulment, she is justified in doing so?

Great logic. Because she can do it, that makes it all better. Last time I checked, all prior offenses were taken care of. Mages were apprehended, made Tranquil, killed, etc. If the problems have been resolved, there is no need to say "The Circle was out of control!"