1072 réponses à ce sujet

[AngryFrozenWater]

Darth Krytie wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...

Mages don't need intent to become abominations.

I am skipping some of your text here. I agree with your last paragraph, BTW.

I think there is a difference between being a mage and a blood mage. You don't catch blood magic like it is a cold. You need some level of awareness. You need to learn it's specific spells and/or make a deal with a demon to aquire the sills. So, intent is required. There is also the situation where non-mages can become possessed. There's a quest about that. Some mage found a way to do that and is trying to use it to gain influence in society. She may have been mad before all this (she looks pretty insane in the quest), but we are not sure. We only saw the ugly end stage.

I am not quite sure why you are bringing up blood mages? Blood mages=/=abominations. You do not need to be a blood mage to become an abomination. However, becoming a blood mage requires intent. And some mages do intend to become abominations. Some of those mages are blood mages and some are not. So, those are two issues that can intersect, but are not necessarily related.

As far as I know it requires a demon or requires blood magic (like in DA:O's Circle quest) and, (according to the DA:O codex for Abominations) although any human and elf can be possessed it also depends on the strength of the individual. It appears to me that not only mages are at risk, because it mentions any human or elf specifically.

That means that mages can be possessed but that not all will be when approached by a demon. It is simply not true.

The Harrowing is a test that sends the mage into the fade to see if he or she can withstand being possessed. The idea was that if you pass the test you would be safe. If not you would be killed or made tranquil. Passing the test in combination with a proper training should allow you to be free. Locking you up any longer is of no use. I am sure that there are exceptions that walk the thin line, but that does not validate that all mages should be locked up forever.

That gives a Circle a function, but as soon as those mages have finished their eduction and passed the Harrowing then it shouldn't become their concentration camp.

[IanPolaris]

Paeyne wrote...

Or get possessed.

Its the possession thing that I have the most concerns about.  If the possession thing were off the table I would say that confinement in its current form was completely unnessessary.

But just how common is spontaneous and involtunary possession really (for mages)?  Honestly?  Even in the worst possible place to put a circle (Kirkwall where the veil is so thin that demons can spontaeously cross and give even mundanes like Lady Harriman mage-like powers), we only see two, TWO cases of spontaneous possession over the course of seven years, both were cases of extreme duress where the mage was going to die (or be brutally disfigured and raped) anyway AND from poorly/untrained/novice mages (the one in the last scene was an apprentice....tell by the robes).  In both cases, the damage was extremely limited.

That's in the WORST place in Thedas (along with the Brecillian forest.

Honestly we see far more non-mages get possessed even in DA2 than mages.

In DAO where the veil was normal in most places we don't see a single case where a mage both spontaneously and involuntarily gets posssesed.  Under NORMAL conditions, it seems to require the mage's consent...even in the Fereldan tower, Uldred had to use a long complex blood ritual and even then only AFTER the imprisoned mages had been tortured to break their will.

I think that possession based on the game lore (even DA2) is a lot rarer than the Devs want to admit or tell us.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Paeyne wrote...

Remember I am not a big supporter of the the Templars either.  In a all these years you would think someone would figured out a way of protecting them from possession that didn't involve reducing them to emotionless shells.

I blame the Chantry for this.  To quote Wilhelm of Honnelth (who was an ass but also right in this case), "How are we supposed to prevent possession if we aren't permitted to study it?"

This was in a letter to First Enchanter Arlen and he's right.  The chantry's rules keeps mages ignorant and unable to study the spirit world and thus denies them the ability to research means to protect themselves.  I point out that the Rite of Adralla happened after years of research by  BLOODMAGE  (yes Adralla was a bloodmage...she knew bloodmagic...a point the chantry tries to gloss over) that was a Tevineter renegade/refugee.

-Polaris

[Paeyne]

IanPolaris wrote...

Paeyne wrote...

Or get possessed.

Its the possession thing that I have the most concerns about.  If the possession thing were off the table I would say that confinement in its current form was completely unnessessary.

But just how common is spontaneous and involtunary possession really (for mages)?  Honestly?  Even in the worst possible place to put a circle (Kirkwall where the veil is so thin that demons can spontaeously cross and give even mundanes like Lady Harriman mage-like powers), we only see two, TWO cases of spontaneous possession over the course of seven years, both were cases of extreme duress where the mage was going to die (or be brutally disfigured and raped) anyway AND from poorly/untrained/novice mages (the one in the last scene was an apprentice....tell by the robes).  In both cases, the damage was extremely limited.

That's in the WORST place in Thedas (along with the Brecillian forest.

Honestly we see far more non-mages get possessed even in DA2 than mages.

In DAO where the veil was normal in most places we don't see a single case where a mage both spontaneously and involuntarily gets posssesed.  Under NORMAL conditions, it seems to require the mage's consent...even in the Fereldan tower, Uldred had to use a long complex blood ritual and even then only AFTER the imprisoned mages had been tortured to break their will.

I think that possession based on the game lore (even DA2) is a lot rarer than the Devs want to admit or tell us.

-Polaris

Even if you are correct (and the truth is we just don't know what the rate is), once things go bad it could go bad very quickly.  I fought lots of abominations in the Fereldan Circle.  It started with a small group of mages and ended up nearly destroying the Circle.

A higher prevalancy actually supports your argument.  Probably not the best idea to stick all the people who can spontaineously combust all in one place. 

[Darth Krytie]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...

Mages don't need intent to become abominations.

I am skipping some of your text here. I agree with your last paragraph, BTW.

I think there is a difference between being a mage and a blood mage. You don't catch blood magic like it is a cold. You need some level of awareness. You need to learn it's specific spells and/or make a deal with a demon to aquire the sills. So, intent is required. There is also the situation where non-mages can become possessed. There's a quest about that. Some mage found a way to do that and is trying to use it to gain influence in society. She may have been mad before all this (she looks pretty insane in the quest), but we are not sure. We only saw the ugly end stage.

I am not quite sure why you are bringing up blood mages? Blood mages=/=abominations. You do not need to be a blood mage to become an abomination. However, becoming a blood mage requires intent. And some mages do intend to become abominations. Some of those mages are blood mages and some are not. So, those are two issues that can intersect, but are not necessarily related.

As far as I know it requires a demon or requires blood magic (like in DA:O's Circle quest) and, (according to the DA:O codex for Abominations) although any human and elf can be possessed it also depends on the strength of the individual. It appears to me that not only mages are at risk, because it mentions any human or elf specifically.

That means that mages can be possessed but that not all will be when approached by a demon. It is simply not true.

The Harrowing is a test that sends the mage into the fade to see if he or she can withstand being possessed. The idea was that if you pass the test you would be safe. If not you would be killed or made tranquil. Passing the test in combination with a proper training should allow you to be free. Locking you up any longer is of no use. I am sure that there are exceptions that walk the thin line, but that does not validate that all mages should be locked up forever.

That gives a Circle a function, but as soon as those mages have finished their eduction and passed the Harrowing then it shouldn't become their concentration camp.

I'm still not following how you arrive here from anything I've said?  

[Torax]

Dressing up the Circle as completely evil like Polaris would wish to state. Belittles all the Mages who support and love the Circle. Like Wynne and so many of the Enchanters who were not Libertarians. It demeans all the work they put into teaching fellow mages. The joy they tend to have by being with others of their kind. To take the actions of just Kirkwall as this absolute rule of evil. When many still seemed to like being there at times.

Also trying to shelter your arguments around hyperbole and or using rules of outside sources that do not apply will not change what happened or will happen. This is Thedas and not the U.S. or any other modern day nation. This is Thedas in all it's glory and madness. Trying to take what some say and then use it for another argument or applying things to their statements are not there already shows a lack of reason on your part. It's not white or black in Thedas. Just like not all here are Templar lovers. They just don't necessarily agree with trying to paint every mage as white and not victim.

Lastly, try to remember, just because people may not agree with you. Doesn't mean they support the right of Annulment or even support how the Circle works. In the end we cannot change either. They are parts of a fiction in a fictional world. Trying to beat some argument into the ground about that world does not change it. Also trying to ignore the the fact that fictional characters will never agree with your opinions also changes nothing. You could argue the plight of mages to death, but Thedas and all it's denizens cannot hear you and will not care.

Modifié par Torax, 09 avril 2011 - 08:46 .

[Plaintiff]

Paeyne wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Yes, but the flaw in your comparison is that the Circle of Magi is not a care facility, it's a gilded cage. The vast majority of mages are sane, and in full control of their actions, and they're in no danger of hurting themselves or others unless they conciously choose to.

Or get possessed.

Its the possession thing that I have the most concerns about.  If the possession thing were off the table I would say that confinement in its current form was completely unnessessary.

I'd like to start off by saying that I find your comparison quite apt, but not in the way you think. You're using mental illness as a comparison to all mages, when in fact it only applies to those that are already possessed.

The only difference between a sane mage and a sane person is that a sane mage can shoot fireballs out of their fingertips. They are still in full control of their actions and there is no reason to suppose they would use them to hurt others. Insane/posessed individuals do not have that control, and both are dangerous for that reason

An ordinary mage presents no danger, unless they get possessed. Similarly, an ordinary human being presents no danger unless they develop a mental illness. Mental illness/possession can occur as a result of predisposed weakness, external sources, emotional distress, etc. Any human being can develop mental illness, just as any mage can become possessed. The mentally ill can function in society at different level, and the same goes for possessed mages. For instance, both Wynne and Anders function in society just as a sane person would (Anders' actions at the end of the game are not necessarily indicative of insanity).

But we do not lock people up because they might develop mental illness, that would be unconscienable. Following that logic, it is also wrong to lock up sane mages who have demonstrated that they're capable of living among regular human.

[Torax]

IanPolaris wrote...

Paeyne wrote...

Remember I am not a big supporter of the the Templars either.  In a all these years you would think someone would figured out a way of protecting them from possession that didn't involve reducing them to emotionless shells.

I blame the Chantry for this.  To quote Wilhelm of Honnelth (who was an ass but also right in this case), "How are we supposed to prevent possession if we aren't permitted to study it?"

This was in a letter to First Enchanter Arlen and he's right.  The chantry's rules keeps mages ignorant and unable to study the spirit world and thus denies them the ability to research means to protect themselves.  I point out that the Rite of Adralla happened after years of research by  BLOODMAGE  (yes Adralla was a bloodmage...she knew bloodmagic...a point the chantry tries to gloss over) that was a Tevineter renegade/refugee.

-Polaris

Why Tevinter is likely to have more control over spirits and demons. Though their Sith like power struggles could likely even have much of their knowledge lost as well. Just Tevinter may allow these types of studies. As long as the studies of others do not usurp their power.

[skunkdoctor]

SNIP
The only difference between a sane mage and a sane person is that a sane mage can shoot fireballs out of their fingertips.

Not true. Especially in a world of balanced gameplay, a sword/dagger/bow weilder is just as dangerous as a fireball fingertip weilder (in theory) when it comes to pure damage capabilities. I get your argument, but the other person's aregument was that mages are susceptible to being possessed by demons, at least much moreso than someone who doesn't have dealings with the Fade if I understand correctly. Not nearly the same comparison as a comparison between an average sane person and a sane mages's capability for destruction.

About the OP, I want to reload my save now because I am almost certain I had a dialog with someone  and the wheel itself even said "isn't this illegal?" I was playing a mainly agressive warrior who had seduced and <33 anders as well.

Modifié par skunkdoctor, 09 avril 2011 - 09:04 .

[Paeyne]

Plaintiff wrote...

Paeyne wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Yes, but the flaw in your comparison is that the Circle of Magi is not a care facility, it's a gilded cage. The vast majority of mages are sane, and in full control of their actions, and they're in no danger of hurting themselves or others unless they conciously choose to.

Or get possessed.

Its the possession thing that I have the most concerns about.  If the possession thing were off the table I would say that confinement in its current form was completely unnessessary.

I'd like to start off by saying that I find your comparison quite apt, but not in the way you think. You're using mental illness as a comparison to all mages, when in fact it only applies to those that are already possessed.

The only difference between a sane mage and a sane person is that a sane mage can shoot fireballs out of their fingertips. They are still in full control of their actions and there is no reason to suppose they would use them to hurt others. Insane/posessed individuals do not have that control, and both are dangerous for that reason

An ordinary mage presents no danger, unless they get possessed. Similarly, an ordinary human being presents no danger unless they develop a mental illness. Mental illness/possession can occur as a result of predisposed weakness, external sources, emotional distress, etc. Any human being can develop mental illness, just as any mage can become possessed. The mentally ill can function in society at different level, and the same goes for possessed mages. For instance, both Wynne and Anders function in society just as a sane person would (Anders' actions at the end of the game are not necessarily indicative of insanity).

But we do not lock people up because they might develop mental illness, that would be unconscienable. Following that logic, it is also wrong to lock up sane mages who have demonstrated that they're capable of living among regular human.

I agree with you in theory.  Putting this into practice is the stumbling block.

Confinement would be unnecessary if:

-There was a way of protecting a mage from possession (other than Tranquility).
-The process wasn't so rapid.
-There was a way of detecting the possession and (just as importantly) the nature of the possession.

So long as non-mages have sufficient protection confinement should not be necessary.

As long as the kitten can explode without warning, precautions need to be taken.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Darth Krytie wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...

Mages don't need intent to become abominations.

I am skipping some of your text here. I agree with your last paragraph, BTW.

I think there is a difference between being a mage and a blood mage. You don't catch blood magic like it is a cold. You need some level of awareness. You need to learn it's specific spells and/or make a deal with a demon to aquire the sills. So, intent is required. There is also the situation where non-mages can become possessed. There's a quest about that. Some mage found a way to do that and is trying to use it to gain influence in society. She may have been mad before all this (she looks pretty insane in the quest), but we are not sure. We only saw the ugly end stage.

I am not quite sure why you are bringing up blood mages? Blood mages=/=abominations. You do not need to be a blood mage to become an abomination. However, becoming a blood mage requires intent. And some mages do intend to become abominations. Some of those mages are blood mages and some are not. So, those are two issues that can intersect, but are not necessarily related.

As far as I know it requires a demon or requires blood magic (like in DA:O's Circle quest) and, (according to the DA:O codex for Abominations) although any human and elf can be possessed it also depends on the strength of the individual. It appears to me that not only mages are at risk, because it mentions any human or elf specifically.

That means that mages can be possessed but that not all will be when approached by a demon. It is simply not true.

The Harrowing is a test that sends the mage into the fade to see if he or she can withstand being possessed. The idea was that if you pass the test you would be safe. If not you would be killed or made tranquil. Passing the test in combination with a proper training should allow you to be free. Locking you up any longer is of no use. I am sure that there are exceptions that walk the thin line, but that does not validate that all mages should be locked up forever.

That gives a Circle a function, but as soon as those mages have finished their eduction and passed the Harrowing then it shouldn't become their concentration camp.

I'm still not following how you arrive here from anything I've said? 

We are still talking about mages who don't need the intent to become abominations, right? I think they do need intent in the case of blood magic. In the case of spontaneous possessions things get blurry, because strength, education and a test are part of the prevention methods. Again... You don't catch it like a cold. Especially when you've passed the Harrowing.

[Torax]

I prefer exploding sheep personally

"BAA! - YOU WOULDN'T GET THIS FROM ANY OTHER SHEEP.- YOU ARE TOO LATE! - AT THE END OF THIS THERE WILL BE NO CAKE. - THREE! - TWO! - ONE! - ENJOY YOUR EXPLOSION AND HAVE A NICE DAY."

Who wouldn't want that. Beats exploding kittens anyday.

Modifié par Torax, 09 avril 2011 - 09:14 .

[Paeyne]

Torax wrote...

I prefer explosive sheep personally

"BAA! - YOU WOULDN'T GET THIS FROM ANY OTHER SHEEP.- YOU ARE TOO LATE! - AT THE END OF THIS THERE WILL BE NO CAKE. - THREE! - TWO! - ONE! - ENJOY YOUR EXPLOSION AND HAVE A NICE DAY."

Who wouldn't want that. Beats exploding kittens anyday.

There is a movie based on Weresheep.  Laughed so hard I cried.

I still like exploding kittens.  The furry whte ones with the big blue eyes.

[Darth Krytie]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...



We are still talking about mages who don't need the intent to become abominations, right? I think they do need intent in the case of blood magic. In the case of spontaneous possessions things get blurry, because strength, education and a test are part of the prevention methods. Again... You don't catch it like a cold. Especially when you've passed the Harrowing.

Okay, so you added a thread to the conversation. The first comment of mine that you replied to never claimed that Mages became Blood Mages without intent. Actually, I wasn't discussing Blood Mages at all. That's what confused me about your reply.  That comment appeared to be in direct disagreement with something I had said when in actually, it was never mentioned by me at all.

As an aside, not every mage is tested in a Harrowing. Aposates aren't a part of the circle. Moreover, passing the Harrowing does not equal automatic protection against spontaneous possession. Though, it does make it far less likely.

Modifié par Darth Krytie, 09 avril 2011 - 09:20 .

[DreGregoire]

@ those who responded, thanks.

Again, it's all based on preconceived notions. Your asking others to agree that your perception is the correct one and then arguing that anybody who disagree's is unreasonable. My largest issue with arguments of such types is that the person arguing is holding on so tightly to this one notion that they are unwilling to try to understand what others are trying to say.

In the real world there are no viable examples to understand the mage situation in Thedas. Criminals and the mentally unstable is not the same thing as mages, demons, and spirits. I'm sure there are such places in Thedas that house criminals and mentally unstable people. It is not the same thing as placing all the mages in a tower of learning to make sure they learn what they need to learn to keep the rest of the world safe. This is just the basics in your argument. Is it right? According to who? You a person who doesn't even live there in that world? or to the ordinary person who is living in the fantasy world? Compare and contrast to the real world if you need to but it doesn't change the fact that we do not have the same situation in our world.

[Torax]

Should also point out. While in Fereldon they have Aeonar for the containment of many of the greater risks besides say blood mages who may be killed on sight. The game is set in the Free Marches. So in other words it could be a case of not having the more secure location or not having the Aeonar solution for the more dangerous or at risk mages that could change how a circle in the Free Marches is handled. Just something to consider.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Darth Krytie wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

We are still talking about mages who don't need the intent to become abominations, right? I think they do need intent in the case of blood magic. In the case of spontaneous possessions things get blurry, because strength, education and a test are part of the prevention methods. Again... You don't catch it like a cold. Especially when you've passed the Harrowing.

Okay, so you added a thread to the conversation. The first comment of mine that you replied to never claimed that Mages became Blood Mages without intent. Actually, I wasn't discussing Blood Mages at all. That's what confused me about your reply.  That comment appeared to be in direct disagreement with something I had said when in actually, it was never mentioned by me at all.

As an aside, not every mage is tested in a Harrowing. Aposates aren't a part of the circle. Moreover, passing the Harrowing does not equal automatic protection against spontaneous possession. Though, it does make it far less likely.

Agreed. I am sure that the Harrowing does not offer automatic protection. I am also sure that without the Circle's education and a weak personality it becomes much easier for the demon to possess a mage. But the statement that no intent is required is far too easy. Since we are talking about the Rite of Annulment (where the whole discussion began) I've left out the apostates to simplify things.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

IanPolaris wrote...

I blame the Chantry for this.  To quote Wilhelm of Honnelth (who was an ass but also right in this case), "How are we supposed to prevent possession if we aren't permitted to study it?"

This was in a letter to First Enchanter Arlen and he's right.  The chantry's rules keeps mages ignorant and unable to study the spirit world and thus denies them the ability to research means to protect themselves.  I point out that the Rite of Adralla happened after years of research by  BLOODMAGE  (yes Adralla was a bloodmage...she knew bloodmagic...a point the chantry tries to gloss over) that was a Tevineter renegade/refugee.

-Polaris

You may be wrong about Adralla.

I know the Litany claims she was a 'Maker-fearing mage' who fled Tevinter and so on and so forth, but Wynne claims Adralla was a bard in the service of Divine Clemence I during the second Exalted March, and that she wrote the Litany with the aid of the Chantry and Templars to protect against blood magic.

Why the Litany would state one origin for Adralla and Wynne something completely different is unknown, but it's enough conflicting information that none of us can be positive that Adralla was 100% mage (let along blood mage). Considering Wynne also goes on to say the Litany is a spell and can only be used by a mage, it's even stanger Adralla would be a bard...but go figure, no one ever said Adralla created the Litany for her own use.

Edit: Also, can you cut it out with the pretentious claims that such-and-such is DEFINITELY what you think, just because you believe the author of a Codex is biassed? You don't know, so it's laughable to make such statements. Try and be a bit more objective.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 09 avril 2011 - 12:47 .

[Torax]

 I dedicate this song to all those people who think the Mages have been wronged and how they can't do jack about.

This

[sphinxess]

Paeyne wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I would say that a proven (ie adult) mage should only be confined if it's shown by his or her own actions she's a clear and present danger. That's the standard for anyone really. It doesn't have to be after they've harmed anyone...and no one will tell us what the pre-circle spontaneous abomination rate was (because I strongly suspect it's extremely low to approaching zero).

I am sure the Devs intended this to be a burning question of the rights of society vs rights of individual, but there are some things that society clearly (by western standards and those are the standards of the targeted audience) has no right to do, and punishing people for what they are is one of them.

-Polaris

Take possession off the table and I will happily agree with you on this, provided magic regulation and monitoring are involved.

As long as mages can spontaneously combust into rabid evil killing machines I will have to continue to support confinement.

Remember I am not a big supporter of the the Templars either.  In a all these years you would think someone would figured out a way of protecting them from possession that didn't involve reducing them to emotionless shells.

I wish Harrowing was better defined. If its purpose is to see if the mage will "never spontaneously combust into a rapid killing machine" they need to make it more clear. From our one example in DA:O it didn't really seem to be all that importent for the risk <you get your own room without a door/privacy and Templars still watching you> you don't seem to be trusted anymore than before.

I agree that the children with magic are dangerous and should be confined in some sort of watched school until they are old enough to understand what is considered right from wrong. The problem with most of the circles is instead of a loving enviroment its almost a setup to create disfunctional adults <years of fear - told your cursed - etc>

[LobselVith8]

AshenEndemion wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Meredith ordering the Right doesn't tell us whether there were any legitiment problems with the mages, only that she wanted to purge the mage population in the Gallows. This is the Knight-Commander who lost her mind due to the influence of the Idol she had in her possession.

And?  If being insane means that her justification is automatically wrong than any justification Anders can come up with for doing what he did is wrong.

It calls into question the validity of her claims, especially when she thinks templars turning against her means blood magic is involved. And how is being an abomination the same as being insane because of a Lyrium Idol?

AshenEndemion wrote...

She presented all the justifications she had in her message to the Divine asking for the Right of Annulment during Act 3.  That is the only thing the Divine (and the Seekers) will be able to know about Meredith's beliefs about the Circle at the time.

And given how wrong Cassandra is about her initial assumptions about Hawke and what happened, I don't see much support for Meredith's accuracy.

AshenEndemion wrote...

The real question that should be asked is whether Cullen, after everything is said and done, thought the Circle needed to be purged.  And that likely depends on which side Hawke chooses.  Varric's story is important to the Seekers, to be sure, but neither he, nor Cassandra, will ultimately decide the fate.

For all we know, the reason the rest of the Circles revolted is because the Divine did in fact agree with Meredith, and believed the Right of Annulment was correctly applied... or it could be they revolted, the Divine disagreed with Meredith to appease them, and the Templars revolted against the Chantry because of it.... Until the next game comes out, we won't know for certain.

The Circles revolted because of what happened to the Kirkwall Circle, because they were shown that "the templars could be defied," which is made clear in the VO at the end of DA2.

[Herr Uhl]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Considering Wynne also goes on to say the Litany is a spell and can only be used by a mage, it's even stanger Adralla would be a bard...but go figure, no one ever said Adralla created the Litany for her own use.

This was back when they could cross-class.

[LobselVith8]

RosaAquafire wrote...

If you're a parent, you don't give your child free range of the world. You keep them within your four walls. You might set a slightly bigger boundary than that. When you take them out, they're not allowed to wander off and have to stay at your side. Why? Because children have the potential to hurt themselves. They have all the rights of an adult, but their unique situation makes them vulnerable to being taken advantage of and hurt. Now, if they were -- by no choice of their own -- dangerous, to, we'd probably keep them on an even shorter leash.

So I guess we should throw open the doors and let children roam free and do what they please, because they're human beings and it's morally wrong to obstruct their wishes and "lock them away."

Considering we have societies where mages aren't locked up for being mages - like the Chasind Wilders, the Dalish clans, the seers of Rivain, the mages of the morally corrupt town of Haven - I don't find your analogy to be accurate.

RosaAquafire wrote...

This whole debate is just absurd. Anyway.

Because people disagree with you over the Chantry controlled Circles and find it morally repugnant to imprison innocent people for something they didn't do, especially when the system continually fails to protect said people from abuses, torture, rape, lobotomy, and murder?

RosaAquafire wrote...

Dear IanPolaris,

I find it a little worrisome just how much energy you have dedicated to this. It was just amusing a month ago, but damn, boy, I'm becoming concerned. Why don't you expend all this energy fighting for the human rights of an actual oppressed minority in the actual world?

Why are you condescending to people who take a different viewpoint than you do? You seem to be taking the pro-mage argument very personally considering it's concerns a fictional universe.

[Dean_the_Young]

LobselVith8 wrote...

RosaAquafire wrote...

Dear IanPolaris,

I find it a little worrisome just how much energy you have dedicated to this. It was just amusing a month ago, but damn, boy, I'm becoming concerned. Why don't you expend all this energy fighting for the human rights of an actual oppressed minority in the actual world?

Why are you condescending to people who take a different viewpoint than you do? You seem to be taking the pro-mage argument very personally considering it's concerns a fictional universe.

Rose isn't condescending to people who take a different opinion than Rose. Rose can't even be called to being condescending to 'people': one person in particular, who is not you.

And your own quote rather illustrates that it isn't the difference of position, but the extent to which IanPolaris is clinging to it, that is the cause. Rosa isn't condescending because Polaris disagrees, Rosa is remarking about about Polaris for carrying on as Polaris does.