1072 Antworten in diesem Thema

[TJPags]

The Angry One wrote...

Meredith was asking for the Right of Annulment from Val Royeux before the Chantry blew up.
She was obligated to wait for a response if the circumstances from the point she made that request didn't change.
They did. The Chantry exploded and the Grand Cleric was assassinated, the city was in chaos and she is well within her authority to declare a state of emergency and invoke the Right.

Yea, this sums it up for me, too.

Polaris, I'd agree with you if nothing had changed.  Once Meredith asks the Divine for permission, if nothing changes, she is bound to wait for that response before acting.

As you point out, there are two possibilities - either the Divine said no, or the Divine didn't answer yet,

Assume the Divin said no.  That answer was based on the facts as they existed when the request was made.  Things have changed.  A new request is in order.  Except now, as DG said, Meredith herself has the authority to give the order.  Thus, she doesn't need to ask anyone, she can give the Order.  I'll also mention that, in this scenario, Meredith did abide by the Divine's decision.  She took the "no", and didn't invoke the Right.  But once things change, its time for a reevaluation - and now, there is no need to go anywhere for permission - she has the authority.

Now, assume the Divine hasn't answered, or that the answer simply didn't reach Kirkwall yet.  That request, and the answer, was based on the facts as they existed when the request was made.  Again, circumstances have changed.  They would, I think, certainly merit a new request.  But again, as things stand now, Meredith need make no request to anyone, as she has the authority now.

Circumstances changed.  The Chantry was destroyed, the Grand Cleric - and who knows how many other people - are dead.  A new consideration of whether to invoke the Right is called for.

[TobiTobsen]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Angry One,

The Circle is NOT in the city. It is on an isolated prison island in the harbor.

-Polais

It is still next to the main areas of the city and within the city limits.

No it's not in both cases.  The gallows is like Alcatraz.  It's in the harbor but clearly seperate from the city and outside the bounds of the city.  That's why the refugees were sent there (to keep most out of the city).

-Polaris

The mages are all over the city as soon as Meredith calls for the RoA. They are obviously not locked down in the Gallows, or at least not properly. Mages, Shades and Demons are swarming through the streets and causing havoc and I have a hard time imagining that these should all be apostates.

[The Angry One]

IanPolaris wrote...

No it's not in both cases.  The gallows is like Alcatraz.  It's in the harbor but clearly seperate from the city and outside the bounds of the city.  That's why the refugees were sent there (to keep most out of the city).

-Polaris

Were there merchants in Alcatraz?
Traffic between the Gallows and the city proper is regular and the citizenry clearly visits there often for the circle's tranquil services.

[AshenEndymion]

The Angry One wrote...

There are really two ways why this is legal.

1) A major event happens in the city that's next to the circle. With the death of the Grand Cleric the Knight-Commander has the authority to determine if this changes the situation enough to declare an emergency and the Right.

2) She is acting Grand Cleric. The reason she had to ask the Divine is because she was not the Grand Cleric. Legally, now she is and is allowed to make the decision herself.

This.

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

[quote]Torax wrote...

Polaris while I understand your attempt at making it a more illegal or wrong act. I think there is one key thing you are forgetting in that brain of your's.

Gaider's Opinion > Your's

If he says she had the Right to do it, then she had the right to do it.[/quote]

DG has never addressed this particular point.  I don't think he's fully considered it honestly.

-Polaris[/quote]He rather tore you down when you tried to argue that she didn't have the right to before. His course of reasoning has not been invalidated.

[quote]David Gaider wrote...

And you decided this when, exactly?

A Knight-Commander is
second-in-command next to the Grand Cleric. With Elthina's death,
Meredith was legally in command of the Kirkwall Chantry-- such as it
was, and certainly in the absence of any ranking Revered Mother or the
Divine herself. Cullen's objection was not that her invocation of the
Rite was illegal, it was that it was unjustified.[/quote]

He also brought up when you previously insisted Meredith did or did not have the right to do something that was never specifically addressed.

[quote]David Gaider wrote...

Right.

And where in that codex entry does it say who commands the
Circle of Magi? Or who holds the authority to invoke the Rite of
Annulment? Or what happens when a Grand Cleric dies? It talks about the
heirarchy of the Chantry itself, which the templars are not part of but
rather adjacent to.

You are drawing inferences that are not
explicitly stated, and deciding they are facts. Then, when I tell you
there's more to it than that, you say I'm contradicting something you
yourself decided. You're wrong. Please deal with it.[/quote]
Which also ties in again to your insistence of what must or must not be legal despite the legalities not being defined to cite to your advantage..
[quote]David Gaider wrote...


[quote]Let me ask you
this:  If a KC can do whatever they like (as long as they can remove the
Grand Cleric first), then are there any meaningful checks to Templar
power at all?

I don't think so.
[/quote]

I'm sorry, am I in the position of defending the
templars, now? You're going to sit there with your arms crossed because
the fanfic you got going in your head makes more sense to you? To
answer your question: yes, I imagine in a theoretical world if a
Knight-Commander could conspire to remove a Grand Cleric, and also keep
any clear successor from manifesting, they would be able to do as they
please with the Circle of Magi-- subject to scrutiny once the Divine got
wind of it, no doubt. Or does the possibility of political scheming
make no sense to you? Shall I go into the intricacies of authority
between the Grand Clerics and the Divine, as well? Or did the fact such
things are not all explicitly laid out mean you've decided how it works
already?

If you wish to ask for clarification, do so. Otherwise,
I'd suggest you maintain the notion that you are speculating, and basing
at least part of that speculation on the opinions of in-world
characters (vis a vis the codex or not). You are free to draw what
judgements from that you wish-- whether it be that the templars are a
horribly corrupt organization or what have you. We have intentionally
left that part of the page blank.

Enjoy.

[IanPolaris]

The Angry One wrote...
There are really two ways why this is legal.

1) A major event happens in the city that's next to the circle. With the death of the Grand Cleric the Knight-Commander has the authority to determine if this changes the situation enough to declare an emergency and the Right.

Hightown (Chantry) is not next to the circle.  She has the authority to declare an emergency with regard to mages and the chantry.  Normally she would also be able to invoke the Rite, but since the situation with the circle hadnt changed and she already asked for superior oversight, she is obligated to wait for that oversight.  Way it works in pretty much any miltary organization.

2) She is acting Grand Cleric. The reason she had to ask the Divine is because she was not the Grand Cleric. Legally, now she is and is allowed to make the decision herself.

Erm. Not even DG said she was acting Grand Cleric.  He merely said she had he authority to act....a point I am not disputing in this thread had she not already involved the Divine. Once Meridith involved the DIvine, she is obligated to take direction from the Divine.  That's my point in a nutshell.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

The Angry One wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

No it's not in both cases.  The gallows is like Alcatraz.  It's in the harbor but clearly seperate from the city and outside the bounds of the city.  That's why the refugees were sent there (to keep most out of the city).

-Polaris

Were there merchants in Alcatraz?
Traffic between the Gallows and the city proper is regular and the citizenry clearly visits there often for the circle's tranquil services.

Given there was a prison industry, yes, I believe there were mechants at Alcatraz actually.

-Polaris

[Oneiropolos]

What proof do you have that the Divine did NOT write back saying, "We're considering a Divine march, but in terms of the Right of Anullment, we leave that to the hands of your city-states Grand Cleric." Which would have tossed the ball back to the Grand Cleric. Do you think Meredith would have waved a sheet of paper in front of all the other templars, "Look! The Divine refuses to interfere in this! Oh, but she is thinking of coming to kill us all. That part kind of sucks." But then the Grand Cleric is still steadfast in her refusal. Oh, oops, she got killed and legally, that ball the Divine tossed back to the Grand Cleric is now in Meredith's hands. Again, thank you SO much, Anders.

And as the Angry One stated...did your game somehow bug out and there weren't a ton of mages on the streets of Kirkwall in the end game? Because there were in mine, for supposedly being 'confined' to the Gallows...

[IanPolaris]

Guys,

You are missing it. When I talked with DG, I did not realize at the time that Meridith had asked and involved superior authority. That changes everything which you'd know if you'd been in a military or paramilitary organization (like the Templars clearly are).

-Polaris

[The Angry One]

IanPolaris wrote...

Hightown (Chantry) is not next to the circle.  She has the authority to declare an emergency with regard to mages and the chantry.  Normally she would also be able to invoke the Rite, but since the situation with the circle hadnt changed and she already asked for superior oversight, she is obligated to wait for that oversight.  Way it works in pretty much any miltary organization.

Your insistence that nothing with regards to the circle changed flies in the face of what happens in the game, aside from the fact that the event compromises the safety and order of the entire city, which includes the Gallows.

Erm. Not even DG said she was acting Grand Cleric.  He merely said she had he authority to act....a point I am not disputing in this thread had she not already involved the Divine. Once Meridith involved the DIvine, she is obligated to take direction from the Divine.  That's my point in a nutshell.

-Polaris

She has the authority, because virtually every member of the Chantry was incinerated in the blast.
With no senior members able to take on the role of acting Grand Cleric it falls to the Templars as members of the Chantry to assume responsibility for the time being.

[Torax]

IanPolaris wrote...

Guys,

You are missing it. When I talked with DG, I did not realize at the time that Meridith had asked and involved superior authority. That changes everything which you'd know if you'd been in a military or paramilitary organization (like the Templars clearly are).

-Polaris

You are going to tell the WRITER what they didn't realize. You know the story they worked on. You presume soo much. He already adressed the situation multiple times. Just because you wanted to find a way to work the argument doesn't make you right. Ever. He worked on the character. You did not.

[The Angry One]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

No it's not in both cases.  The gallows is like Alcatraz.  It's in the harbor but clearly seperate from the city and outside the bounds of the city.  That's why the refugees were sent there (to keep most out of the city).

-Polaris

Were there merchants in Alcatraz?
Traffic between the Gallows and the city proper is regular and the citizenry clearly visits there often for the circle's tranquil services.

Given there was a prison industry, yes, I believe there were mechants at Alcatraz actually.

-Polaris

Prison industry ships goods wholesale, they didn't place merchants at the Alcatraz docks to sell goods to citizens coming and going all day as far as I know.

[TJPags]

IanPolaris wrote...

Guys,

You are missing it. When I talked with DG, I did not realize at the time that Meridith had asked and involved superior authority. That changes everything which you'd know if you'd been in a military or paramilitary organization (like the Templars clearly are).

-Polaris

It changes everything in your mind.

It changes nothing in ours.

The situation in Kirkwall had clearly changed.  How can you dispute that?

[IanPolaris]

Oneiropolos wrote...

What proof do you have that the Divine did NOT write back saying, "We're considering a Divine march, but in terms of the Right of Anullment, we leave that to the hands of your city-states Grand Cleric." Which would have tossed the ball back to the Grand Cleric. Do you think Meredith would have waved a sheet of paper in front of all the other templars, "Look! The Divine refuses to interfere in this! Oh, but she is thinking of coming to kill us all. That part kind of sucks." But then the Grand Cleric is still steadfast in her refusal. Oh, oops, she got killed and legally, that ball the Divine tossed back to the Grand Cleric is now in Meredith's hands. Again, thank you SO much, Anders.

And as the Angry One stated...did your game somehow bug out and there weren't a ton of mages on the streets of Kirkwall in the end game? Because there were in mine, for supposedly being 'confined' to the Gallows...

:Pffft:  That had been happening at the drop of a hat all of act three. The veil is so thin that demons can actually cross over and give mundanes like Lady Harriman mage-like powers.  The fact is that all this happens AFTER the RIte is declared.  You can't use knowlege of what happens after the declaration to inform a decision before it.   Doesn't work that way.

-Polars

[IanPolaris]

TJPags wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Guys,

You are missing it. When I talked with DG, I did not realize at the time that Meridith had asked and involved superior authority. That changes everything which you'd know if you'd been in a military or paramilitary organization (like the Templars clearly are).

-Polaris

It changes everything in your mind.

It changes nothing in ours.

The situation in Kirkwall had clearly changed.  How can you dispute that?

Because the situation in Kirwall itself is not relavent when it comes to the legality of the Annulment.  The situation regarding the circle of magi itself has to change and when Meridith made her declaration, it had not.

-Polaris

[TobiTobsen]

IanPolaris wrote...

Guys,

You are missing it. When I talked with DG, I did not realize at the time that Meridith had asked and involved superior authority. That changes everything which you'd know if you'd been in a military or paramilitary organization (like the Templars clearly are).

-Polaris

And you would actually wait on the OK from Orlais if your were in Meredith's position, while Mages, Abominations and Demons are tearing the city apart? She had to act immediately and not in two weeks when the letter from Val Royeaux arrived.

[The Angry One]

IanPolaris wrote...

Because the situation in Kirwall itself is not relavent when it comes to the legality of the Annulment.  The situation regarding the circle of magi itself has to change and when Meridith made her declaration, it had not.

-Polaris

And you're the one deciding it hasn't changed when the game shows us it has.
Even if you ignore the demons and abominations, the mages were in the streets. There was no order in the Gallows to begin with.

[IanPolaris]

Torax wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Guys,

You are missing it. When I talked with DG, I did not realize at the time that Meridith had asked and involved superior authority. That changes everything which you'd know if you'd been in a military or paramilitary organization (like the Templars clearly are).

-Polaris

You are going to tell the WRITER what they didn't realize. You know the story they worked on. You presume soo much. He already adressed the situation multiple times. Just because you wanted to find a way to work the argument doesn't make you right. Ever. He worked on the character. You did not.

You do realize that the game was written by committee.  I've seem plenty of cases where even the author himself forget some crucial details.   You can't assume that DG automatically considered this wrinkle.

-Polaris

[1Nosphorus1]

I'm going to say the reason behind mages appearing during the declaration of the right of annulment are:

Hawke says: "ANOTHER WAVE!"

[Torax]

The Angry One wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Because the situation in Kirwall itself is not relavent when it comes to the legality of the Annulment.  The situation regarding the circle of magi itself has to change and when Meridith made her declaration, it had not.

-Polaris

And you're the one deciding it hasn't changed when the game shows us it has.
Even if you ignore the demons and abominations, the mages were in the streets. There was no order in the Gallows to begin with.

I think this is one of those kinds of threads where even if Gaider wanted to reply saying she had the right to do so. Polaris wouldn't listen and tell himself that Gaider is ignoring something that he came up himself...

[TJPags]

IanPolaris wrote...

TJPags wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Guys,

You are missing it. When I talked with DG, I did not realize at the time that Meridith had asked and involved superior authority. That changes everything which you'd know if you'd been in a military or paramilitary organization (like the Templars clearly are).

-Polaris

It changes everything in your mind.

It changes nothing in ours.

The situation in Kirkwall had clearly changed.  How can you dispute that?

Because the situation in Kirwall itself is not relavent when it comes to the legality of the Annulment.  The situation regarding the circle of magi itself has to change and when Meridith made her declaration, it had not.

-Polaris

And do you honestly think that Anders acts did not change the situation with the Circle?  As Meredith said, the Chantry was destroyed by a mage - do you think people in the streets are going to distinguish between an apostate, a Circle mage, or a Grey Warden?  No, not a change - they want mage blood.  And there's a whole lot of that in the Gallows.

It also shows that the Templars have lost control of the situation they are there to control - that being, not only the Circle, but locating and bringing under control apostate mages for the safety of the people.  That loss of control absolutely changes the situation.

[IanPolaris]

The Angry One wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Because the situation in Kirwall itself is not relavent when it comes to the legality of the Annulment.  The situation regarding the circle of magi itself has to change and when Meridith made her declaration, it had not.

-Polaris

And you're the one deciding it hasn't changed when the game shows us it has.
Even if you ignore the demons and abominations, the mages were in the streets. There was no order in the Gallows to begin with.

Say what?  The only mages prior to the order we see are the small group the first enchanter took with him.  We see pehaps all of a dozen or so unique circle mages the entire trip (out of at least hundreds if not thousands).  There was completely calm in the streets until Meridith issued her order.  Play the game again and you will see.

-Polaris

[The Angry One]

IanPolaris wrote...

Say what?  The only mages prior to the order we see are the small group the first enchanter took with him.  We see pehaps all of a dozen or so unique circle mages the entire trip (out of at least hundreds if not thousands).  There was completely calm in the streets until Meridith issued her order.  Play the game again and you will see.

-Polaris

Um, no. Everything was completely calm until the Chantry exploded in pretty red fireworks. That's when the feces hit the oscillator.

[IanPolaris]

TobiTobsen wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Guys,

You are missing it. When I talked with DG, I did not realize at the time that Meridith had asked and involved superior authority. That changes everything which you'd know if you'd been in a military or paramilitary organization (like the Templars clearly are).

-Polaris

And you would actually wait on the OK from Orlais if your were in Meredith's position, while Mages, Abominations and Demons are tearing the city apart? She had to act immediately and not in two weeks when the letter from Val Royeaux arrived.

Gregoire would have waited.  Right after the Chantry had blown up, there wern't any abominations or the like running im the streets.  There was no emergency.  That only happened after the Templars tried to kill every mage in sight.  Battlefields tend to get ugly fast.  Until Meridith issued her order, there was NO emergency with regard to the circle.  There simply was not.

-Polaris