1072 réponses à ce sujet

[PantheraOnca]

Dean_the_Young wrote...



Now, if you could actualy point to cases in which I put **** in my mouth, it would be true and not a disparaging remark.

Well, you're spewing enough of it so its gotta come from somewhere!

(bam! zing! wow!)

[AshenEndymion]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

Has the subject of this discussion changed in the last 20 or so pages or can I assume people still insist on debating an already resolved non-issue?

It's changed since page 11 when I mentioned that the Right of Annulment was genocide against innocent people who weren't responsible for what Anders did, and David Gaider responded that mages have magical ability and are dangerous.

DG also said that the mages were innocent as kitten-bombs....  The key word being bombs.  Not kittens.

Edit: Kittens are cute and innocent.  They make you go "awww" and want to love them. 
Bombs are not innocent, and they will kill you.
Mages are bombs (not innocent) in a kitten skin(so they look innocent and you say "aww, you can't kill them, they're pretty and cute.")

Modifié par AshenEndemion, 09 avril 2011 - 05:33 .

[IanPolaris]

AshenEndemion wrote...
DG also said that the mages were innocent as kitten-bombs....  The key word being bombs.  Not kittens.

Edit: Kittens are cute and innocent.  They make you go "awww" and want to love them. 
Bombs are not innocent, and they will kill you.
Mages are bombs (not innocent) in a kitten skin(so they look innocent and you say "aww, you can't kill them, they're pretty and cute.")

Yes and that is precisely the problem.  DG is stating not from the PoV of a Thedas resident but as lead developer that mages really should be punished (becuase they are never innocent) for what they are rather than what they've done.  I take serious issue with that especially from a lead Dev.  As another poster (not me) said:  It's the Winderbank (sp) argument and it's evil.  It's the reasoning that permits otherwise decent people in plush rooms to sign immoral orders with the stroke of a pen.  It's happened all too often in history I am sorry to say.

-Polaris

[Dean_the_Young]

He is stating nothing of the like.

[IanPolaris]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

He is stating nothing of the like.

By stating that no mage is innocent (and thus can reasonably be punished) simply for being a mage, that is precisely what he is saying and I'm not the only one that has said so by a long chalk.

-Polaris

[AshenEndymion]

IanPolaris wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

He is stating nothing of the like.

By stating that no mage is innocent (and thus can reasonably be punished) simply for being a mage, that is precisely what he is saying and I'm not the only one that has said so by a long chalk.

-Polaris

See... now you're reading into things more than what they are.  I was describing what kitten-bombs mean to me...  Not what it means to DG.

If you see kitten-bombs as innocent things, and therefore cannot be punished, that's entirely up to you.

DG certainly didn't say you can't.

But I will say you're stupid for thinking that kitten-bombs are innocent....

[The Angry One]

Really we're getting nowhere if all you're doing is twisting the lead writers words to continue complaining for the sake of complaining.

[IanPolaris]

Ashen,

Think what you like. I don't care, but while Dean's argument was snarky he did (IMHO unitentially) gave a very good precis of the argument that DG tried to sell us back on page 11. Because magic could be dangerous no mage is innocent. From that it's a straight line logical deduction to conclude that since no mage is innocent, all can be punished or treated as 'potentially guilty' for no other reason than being a mage. That wasn't DG speaking in "Templar" mode, that was the WoG.

If that doesn't bother you, then you're not paying attention.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

The Angry One wrote...

Really we're getting nowhere if all you're doing is twisting the lead writers words to continue complaining for the sake of complaining.

I'm not twisting anything.  Read page 11.  DG really said that because of what they are (mages) no mage should be considered innocent.

That's appalling because it essentially states (as WoG) that mages aren't supposed to be treated like human beings (because at least one human right...the right NOT to be punished for what you are....is absent).

-Polaris

[AshenEndymion]

IanPolaris wrote...

Ashen,

Think what you like. I don't care, but while Dean's argument was snarky he did (IMHO unitentially) gave a very good precis of the argument that DG tried to sell us back on page 11. Because magic could be dangerous no mage is innocent. From that it's a straight line logical deduction to conclude that since no mage is innocent, all can be punished or treated as 'potentially guilty' for no other reason than being a mage. That wasn't DG speaking in "Templar" mode, that was the WoG.

If that doesn't bother you, then you're not paying attention.

-Polaris

No.  You are not paying attention, Polaris.

DG specifically said...

Who are innocent in the manner of, say, a kitten that
CAN EXPLODE IN YOUR FACE
AND TAKE OUT AN ENTIRE CITY BLOCK IF YOU TOUCH IT... and might also bite
your nose just because. But relatively innocent nonetheless.

Now.  If you think that a kitten that can explode in your face is innocent, that's perfectly fair.  If you don't, I fail to see the problem.

Is the issue that you don't think mages are kittens that can explode in your face?
The thing is, you don't have a better analogy for the mages.  Because, as much as you would like to think it so, "people with weapons" is NOT a good comparison for mages.  Is kitten-bombs a good comparison?  Perhaps not, but it's a million times more apt than "people with weapons."

[TJPags]

Where in the world of DA do we see the Bill of Rights? A Magna Carta? Any statement that ANY person has these "basic human rights" that people go on about so much?

[IanPolaris]

TJPags wrote...

Where in the world of DA do we see the Bill of Rights? A Magna Carta? Any statement that ANY person has these "basic human rights" that people go on about so much?

Easy.  The fact that DA is market to a western culture and the choices presented assume a player in the same type of culture.  That's true with most modern fantasy btw.  The Real World informs the fantasy one and we weren't talking about the PoV of Fantasy Thedas Templar here so this is all the more apparent.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Ashen,

Yes, I am going to accept that from the same person that explicitly agreed with Cullen that mages are weapons and not really people (and yes I seem to recall that you DID say just that several times). If you believe that, then we have nothing to say to each other.

-Polaris

[The Angry One]

IanPolaris wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Where in the world of DA do we see the Bill of Rights? A Magna Carta? Any statement that ANY person has these "basic human rights" that people go on about so much?

Easy.  The fact that DA is market to a western culture and the choices presented assume a player in the same type of culture.  That's true with most modern fantasy btw.  The Real World informs the fantasy one and we weren't talking about the PoV of Fantasy Thedas Templar here so this is all the more apparent.

-Polaris

Because in western culture, it's entirely acceptable to round up people in ghettos where they will be subject to inequity, beatings and rape upon the whim of those in charge because they have different physical features.
Oh wait, no.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Angry One wrote...
Because in western culture, it's entirely acceptable to round up people in ghettos where they will be subject to inequity, beatings and rape upon the whim of those in charge because they have different physical features.
Oh wait, no.

Half a century ago, it was.

Maybe one should specify and add "contemporary Western culture".
Though I am not so sure that French banlieus are that great.

[barryl89]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Really we're getting nowhere if all you're doing is twisting the lead writers words to continue complaining for the sake of complaining.

I'm not twisting anything.  Read page 11.  DG really said that because of what they are (mages) no mage should be considered innocent.

No. You really are twisting his words.

He said they are not "Innocent of being dangerous".

Which is absolutely true, and is also very clever wordplay. As you'd expect, mind.

That's appalling because it essentially states (as WoG) that mages
aren't supposed to be treated like human beings (because at least one
human right...the right NOT to be punished for what you are....is
absent).

Mages are not only Human Beings. They are either Qunari, Elven or Human.

That brings me to the core point of my argument:

THIS IS NOT OUR WORLD

Do we have mages in our world? NO. So stop trying to apply your real world logic to a fictional universe.

On another note: dwarves prove that you can drive the ability to do magic from a race without making them all mindless drones. The chantry really should look into copying that.

[Camenae]

Why aren't people more upset about the way the Elves are treated? It seems to me that their oppression is even more unfair than the mages'. But as it is even Merrill, an elf, seems to care more about Mage injustice than the injustices she herself suffers and are surrounded by, living in the Alienage.

[The Angry One]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
Because in western culture, it's entirely acceptable to round up people in ghettos where they will be subject to inequity, beatings and rape upon the whim of those in charge because they have different physical features.
Oh wait, no.

Half a century ago, it was.

Maybe one should specify and add "contemporary Western culture".
Though I am not so sure that French banlieus are that great.

I know but since Polaris referred to the game being marketed to western culture I assumed he meant contemporary.. as I doubt you'd find many buyers in the 1960s. They'd have nothing to play it on.

[stobie]

I didn't get anything more from Mr. Gaider than an acknowledgment that mages are, in fact, inherently dangerous, and thus, those in their world are leery of them until proven otherwise. As far as laws regulating them, that doesn't seem extreme. (killing them all because of what one does IS extreme, however) You don't get to see a lot of strong, positive mages in this game. Even Morrigan had a painful tendency to discount 'weaker' human life. (though she wanted to free Sten, she was ready to exchange captive elves for blood magic - this is when I tried to have my human boy break up with her...) Anders starts as a compassionate healer, more Wynne than Morrigan, then turns into something quite different. He's not doing much to calm the masses.

[The Angry One]

Camenae wrote...

Why aren't people more upset about the way the Elves are treated? It seems to me that their oppression is even more unfair than the mages'. But as it is even Merrill, an elf, seems to care more about Mage injustice than the injustices she herself suffers and are surrounded by, living in the Alienage.

It's especially ironic given that the Circles are the only way for an elf in Thedas to gain any kind of status.
Well aside from Grey Wardens.

Modifié par The Angry One, 09 avril 2011 - 06:13 .

[stobie]

Camenae wrote...

Why aren't people more upset about the way the Elves are treated? It seems to me that their oppression is even more unfair than the mages'. But as it is even Merrill, an elf, seems to care more about Mage injustice than the injustices she herself suffers and are surrounded by, living in the Alienage.

I thought this, too!  I hoped Sandal's weird 'When he comes back' phrase meant elves are going to get some power back!  Maybe a bit more meat on their bones, too, and get their height back!  The City Elves remain my favorite - they're so poignant. (Casteless dwarves, too - but they have the disadvantage of having weirdly disproportionate arms & I don't get far with them...)  

The scene with the Keeper entering the Alienage is just glorious.  I save it. 

[earl of the north]

TJPags wrote...

Where in the world of DA do we see the Bill of Rights? A Magna Carta? Any statement that ANY person has these "basic human rights" that people go on about so much?

Nowhere....In fact, quite the opposite really.

Most of the cultures that have been described in any depth in DA have oppressed members of the populations....Qunari drugged workers/chained mages, Elven second class citzens, Castless dwarfs, Tevinter slaves, circle mages etc.

Modifié par earl of the north, 09 avril 2011 - 06:17 .

[IanPolaris]

Camenae wrote...

Why aren't people more upset about the way the Elves are treated? It seems to me that their oppression is even more unfair than the mages'. But as it is even Merrill, an elf, seems to care more about Mage injustice than the injustices she herself suffers and are surrounded by, living in the Alienage.

There's been lots of discussion about the horrid way the Chantry treats elves (more in DAO than here, but it's happened), but in this case the protagonist is always human, and almost all of the characters you interact with are human.  You do get to be an elf-friend, but mage v. templar is the overall theme so it's what we tend to talk about in DA2, that's all.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

The Angry One wrote...

Camenae wrote...

Why aren't people more upset about the way the Elves are treated? It seems to me that their oppression is even more unfair than the mages'. But as it is even Merrill, an elf, seems to care more about Mage injustice than the injustices she herself suffers and are surrounded by, living in the Alienage.

It's especially ironic given that the Circles are the only way for an elf in Thedas to gain any kind of status.
Well aside from Grey Wardens.

Elves can (and often do) become Magisters in Tevinter.

-Polaris

Edit:  We also learn in DAO that Elves can and frequently do hold positions of great importance in Qunari lands.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 09 avril 2011 - 06:18 .

[LobselVith8]

AshenEndemion wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's changed since page 11 when I mentioned that the Right of Annulment was genocide against innocent people who weren't responsible for what Anders did, and David Gaider responded that mages have magical ability and are dangerous.

DG also said that the mages were innocent as kitten-bombs....  The key word being bombs.  Not kittens.

The mages were innocent of the crime Anders committed.

AshenEndemion wrote...

Edit: Kittens are cute and innocent.  They make you go "awww" and want to love them. 
Bombs are not innocent, and they will kill you.
Mages are bombs (not innocent) in a kitten skin(so they look innocent and you say "aww, you can't kill them, they're pretty and cute.")

Having magical ability doesn't excuse an act of genocide, but I suppose this explains why we were denied a proper apostate POV from Hawke and had to put up with mage antagonists even as an apostate Hawke who condemned Meredith before the people of Kirkwall.