1072 réponses à ce sujet

[Nashiktal]

IanPolaris wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...
And this is the problem...

Because the Right of Annulment was legal, it was determined that the mages ARE guilty.  The Right of Annulment, in essence, is a guilty verdict that the Circle is so corrupted it is beyond saving.

No.  The mages were not guilty.  Even Cullen objects to the use of the Right in this case.  However, what Meridith did was (apparently) legal albeit just barely especially since she already asked the Divine for a ruling.  It think it's very clear (no matter what the Divine thinks about magic) that the Divine would have many sharp, smoking hot, and very pointed discucussions with Meridith about the abuse of her authority.....had Meridith lived.

That's the probem.  The fact that such power legally fell into the hands of a clear fruitloop with NO oversight and NO determination (or even attempt) of true guilt just makes the Chantry (and Templars) look even worse.

-Polaris

They were seen as guilty by the legal presence within the city, as followed by the way the world works in DA.

In thedas, there is no democracy. There is no Locke. There is no idea of "basic human rights" at least not in appliance to mages. 

Right and wrong as we know it does not fully fit within this world. If it is to change, it will be by some fictional figure within that world. Perhaps they will have their own locke someday.

However if said Locke entire family was killed by a young lad who turned into an abomination....

[Augustei]

If only Cullen had the gonads to pull a coup himself, I mean with his position as second in command he would have obtained far more support than Thrask ever did... And the Grand Cleric wouldn't have done anything because well.. She never does

[Augustei]

Nashiktal wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...
And this is the problem...

Because the Right of Annulment was legal, it was determined that the mages ARE guilty.  The Right of Annulment, in essence, is a guilty verdict that the Circle is so corrupted it is beyond saving.

No.  The mages were not guilty.  Even Cullen objects to the use of the Right in this case.  However, what Meridith did was (apparently) legal albeit just barely especially since she already asked the Divine for a ruling.  It think it's very clear (no matter what the Divine thinks about magic) that the Divine would have many sharp, smoking hot, and very pointed discucussions with Meridith about the abuse of her authority.....had Meridith lived.

That's the probem.  The fact that such power legally fell into the hands of a clear fruitloop with NO oversight and NO determination (or even attempt) of true guilt just makes the Chantry (and Templars) look even worse.

-Polaris

They were seen as guilty by the legal presence within the city, as followed by the way the world works in DA.

In thedas, there is no democracy. There is no Locke. There is no idea of "basic human rights" at least not in appliance to mages. 

Right and wrong as we know it does not fully fit within this world. If it is to change, it will be by some fictional figure within that world. Perhaps they will have their own locke someday.

However if said Locke entire family was killed by a young lad who turned into an abomination....

They were seen as guilty by one of the legal athorities within the city, the only remaining one. All others and those who had higher authority did not permit the annulment and did not see the mages in the wrong (Divine Justina V, Grand Cleric Elthina)

Also Meredith wanted to Annul the circle before the mages commited any crime (sending request to the divine) since Elthina wouldn't grant it.. All this has probably been mentioned already but I havn't been paying attention lol

[LobselVith8]

AshenEndemion wrote...

And this is the problem...

Because the Right of Annulment was legal, it was determined that the mages ARE guilty.  The Right of Annulment, in essence, is a guilty verdict that the Circle is so corrupted it is beyond saving.

Except the Right of Annulment was invoked for a crime Anders committed, and an entire population is being executed as a result instead.

[AngryFrozenWater]

I see it like this: The only group that is interested in the rights of mages are the mages themselves. The rest is only interested in keeping or expanding their own power. The Rite of Annulment is just the templar's tool to enforce the power over mages.

[Camenae]

Say everybody did agree that Meredith calling the Annulment was illegal. Okay, now what?

What does this whole discussion accomplish?

The way I see it, MOST people are in the camp of:

Was it legal? Yes.
Was it right? No.

What more are you hoping to get out of the illegality argument?

[LobselVith8]

Nashiktal wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

According to the law he did not.  He had his day in court and was found not-guilty.  I don't believe the verdict was correct either, but it is what it is.  Otherwise you descend into vigalante justice.

-Polaris

Isn't that what the templar is doing though? Following the laws of their day?

You mean they were following orders when we started to execute men, women, and children? Isn't that always the excuse when atrocities are committed?

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

And this is the problem...

Because the Right of Annulment was legal, it was determined that the mages ARE guilty.  The Right of Annulment, in essence, is a guilty verdict that the Circle is so corrupted it is beyond saving.

Except the Right of Annulment was invoked for a crime Anders committed, and an entire population is being executed as a result instead.

And again we must point out that it is not because of what Anders did the Circle gets annulled. Had Meredith had her way, the Circle would have been annulled long before Anders had a chance to pull his little stunt.

[AshenEndymion]

LobselVith8 wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

And this is the problem...

Because the Right of Annulment was legal, it was determined that the mages ARE guilty.  The Right of Annulment, in essence, is a guilty verdict that the Circle is so corrupted it is beyond saving.

Except the Right of Annulment was invoked for a crime Anders committed, and an entire population is being executed as a result instead.

I went over this 4 or 5 pages back.

The Right of Annulment was invoked BECAUSE of Anders' actions.  It was not invoked FOR Anders' actions.

There is a difference between the two.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Except the Right of Annulment was invoked for a crime Anders committed, and an entire population is being executed as a result instead.

And again we must point out that it is not because of what Anders did the Circle gets annulled. Had Meredith had her way, the Circle would have been annulled long before Anders had a chance to pull his little stunt.

That must explain why Meredith says "the people will demand blood."

[AngryFrozenWater]

AshenEndemion wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

And this is the problem...

Because the Right of Annulment was legal, it was determined that the mages ARE guilty.  The Right of Annulment, in essence, is a guilty verdict that the Circle is so corrupted it is beyond saving.

Except the Right of Annulment was invoked for a crime Anders committed, and an entire population is being executed as a result instead.

I went over this 4 or 5 pages back.

The Right of Annulment was invoked BECAUSE of Anders' actions.  It was not invoked FOR Anders' actions.

There is a difference between the two.

Meredith would have gone fruity anyway. I fear her lyrium sword had more to do with it.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Except the Right of Annulment was invoked for a crime Anders committed, and an entire population is being executed as a result instead.

And again we must point out that it is not because of what Anders did the Circle gets annulled. Had Meredith had her way, the Circle would have been annulled long before Anders had a chance to pull his little stunt.

That must explain why Meredith says "the people will demand blood."

Indeed. But had the tensions in Kirkwall not been as they were, the people would have wanted Anders's blood and not every mage in Kirkwall's. Matter of fact is: Meredith had asked for permission to invoke the Right, she was denied. Do you actually think she was like "meh" afterwards and let it slip?

[AshenEndymion]

LobselVith8 wrote...

That must explain why Meredith says "the people will demand blood."

They wouldn't have?  The Chantry got blown up, Meredith executes Anders, and the people of Kirkwall (and the rest of Thedas) say "cool, everything's fine now."

They didn't say that with the Qunari, and the Qunari were less of a threat than the mages.

[AngryFrozenWater]

What I don't get is that you people talk about Meredith as if she made some sensible arguments. She did not. She was a fruitcake. She was possessed by the same kind of substance that made Bartrand mad. But no... Meredith made a sane decision. That does not compute.

[EmperorSahlertz]

She made lots of reasonable arguements, such as for example that elements within the Circle was planning to overthrow her, and others were practicing Blood Magic. All of which prooves to be true. The Circle was so far past redemption that I wonder what the hell Elthina was hoping for.

[AshenEndymion]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

What I don't get is that you people talk about Meredith as if she made some sensible arguments. She did not. She was a fruitcake. She was possessed by the same kind of substance that made Bartrand mad. But no... Meredith made a sane decision. That does not compute.

This assumes that her reasoning for the Right of Annulment in her request to the Elthina and the Divine was non-existant and/or insane.  It may not have been approved, but it doesn't mean her reasoning for it was insane (because if it was, then Elthina is an even bigger ****** for allowing an insane Knight Commaner, who is seeing offenses that don't exist, to continue at her post).

Since that reasoning is still there, her decision is sane.  The Idol only kept her from seeing anything but her goal.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

That must explain why Meredith says "the people will demand blood."

Indeed. But had the tensions in Kirkwall not been as they were, the people would have wanted Anders's blood and not every mage in Kirkwall's. Matter of fact is: Meredith had asked for permission to invoke the Right, she was denied. Do you actually think she was like "meh" afterwards and let it slip?

Public opinion shouldn't condemn people to genocide. Meredith orders the execution of an entire group of people for something they didn't do. Anders openly confessed to the crime before the Knight-Commander and the First Enchanter, and she handwaves his existance.

Meredith decrees, "As Knight-Commander of Kirkwall, I hereby invoke the Right of Annulment. Every mage in the Circle is to be executed - immediately!" Meredith demands that the Champion aid her because even he (or she) "must see that this outrage cannot be tolerated." Merrill points out the mages are innocent of the crime. "This wasn't their fault! You can't possibly want to slaughter innocent people," in response to Meredith's demand for Hawke to help her kill the mages.

Even when Anders confesses to his part in the destruction of the Chantry, Meredith acts as though she has no choice when she says, "It doesn't matter. Even if I wished to, I could not stay my hand. The people will demand blood." Which must explain why she doesn't even bother with the man who actually committed the crime...

[Torax]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

That is fine as long as the Devs understand that the game is played by people who DO accept the concept of human rights and use that tension as a dramatic foil.  There are far too many examples (good and bad) in fiction to count.

And?
That doesn't mean that the game world has to follow these concepts.

Perhaps not, but it also doesn't mean that the Devs should belittle or even by suprised by those people who do when they play in that world.

-Polaris

Is this before or after you belittled him repeatedly and assumed you know what he is thinking and adding things to him that he never said. Making novels up in your head to then apply as evidence against him. Yup he is the villain. Not you trolling him countless times like the preverbial child you are. You basically have been resorting to a "I'm not touching." game with someone who has no bias at all. Just because you can. Grow up already.

[LobselVith8]

AshenEndemion wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

That must explain why Meredith says "the people will demand blood."

They wouldn't have?  The Chantry got blown up, Meredith executes Anders, and the people of Kirkwall (and the rest of Thedas) say "cool, everything's fine now."

They didn't say that with the Qunari, and the Qunari were less of a threat than the mages.

In other words, murder innocent people for an act Anders did because the mob will demand blood. There's no justification for the slaughter of innocent people simply to appease the public.

[Nashiktal]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

According to the law he did not.  He had his day in court and was found not-guilty.  I don't believe the verdict was correct either, but it is what it is.  Otherwise you descend into vigalante justice.

-Polaris

Isn't that what the templar is doing though? Following the laws of their day?

You mean they were following orders when we started to execute men, women, and children? Isn't that always the excuse when atrocities are committed?

Not comparable in this situation. Quit thinking with modern day, western values. There isn't even a "West" in the game as comparable to our history. By the law of the city (In this case Meridith) the mages  were seen as guilty. She had the Authority, she had the means, and by the process of their system gave the order.

Meridith was facing blood mages, a coup, and the Qunari. Whether or not the act was "right" doesn't mean it isn't justified or legal in the way the law is handled in the world.

Had she have succeeded meridith would still probably be punished by the divine, but at that moment she was in the "right" until forced out of power. Its the way these things work.

[Torax]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

That must explain why Meredith says "the people will demand blood."

Indeed. But had the tensions in Kirkwall not been as they were, the people would have wanted Anders's blood and not every mage in Kirkwall's. Matter of fact is: Meredith had asked for permission to invoke the Right, she was denied. Do you actually think she was like "meh" afterwards and let it slip?

Public opinion shouldn't condemn people to genocide. Meredith orders the execution of an entire group of people for something they didn't do. Anders openly confessed to the crime before the Knight-Commander and the First Enchanter, and she handwaves his existance.

Meredith decrees, "As Knight-Commander of Kirkwall, I hereby invoke the Right of Annulment. Every mage in the Circle is to be executed - immediately!" Meredith demands that the Champion aid her because even he (or she) "must see that this outrage cannot be tolerated." Merrill points out the mages are innocent of the crime. "This wasn't their fault! You can't possibly want to slaughter innocent people," in response to Meredith's demand for Hawke to help her kill the mages.

Even when Anders confesses to his part in the destruction of the Chantry, Meredith acts as though she has no choice when she says, "It doesn't matter. Even if I wished to, I could not stay my hand. The people will demand blood." Which must explain why she doesn't even bother with the man who actually committed the crime...

On Earth maybe. But not the case in Thedas. Get over it.

[Augustei]

"Why are we discussing the right of Annulment when the bastard who did this is right here"

Yeah! What Sebastian said!

[AshenEndymion]

LobselVith8 wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

That must explain why Meredith says "the people will demand blood."

They wouldn't have?  The Chantry got blown up, Meredith executes Anders, and the people of Kirkwall (and the rest of Thedas) say "cool, everything's fine now."

They didn't say that with the Qunari, and the Qunari were less of a threat than the mages.

In other words, murder innocent people for an act Anders did because the mob will demand blood. There's no justification for the slaughter of innocent people simply to appease the public.

Innocent does not equal not guilty.  And by virtue of the Right of Annulment being approved, the mages of the Circle were found guilty(Edit: Of being a corrupt Circle full of Maleficarum and Abominations, NOT of killing the Grand Cleric)....

It's not "murder or innocent people," but the "execution of guilty criminals."

Modifié par AshenEndemion, 09 avril 2011 - 08:02 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

That must explain why Meredith says "the people will demand blood."

Indeed. But had the tensions in Kirkwall not been as they were, the people would have wanted Anders's blood and not every mage in Kirkwall's. Matter of fact is: Meredith had asked for permission to invoke the Right, she was denied. Do you actually think she was like "meh" afterwards and let it slip?

Public opinion shouldn't condemn people to genocide. Meredith orders the execution of an entire group of people for something they didn't do. Anders openly confessed to the crime before the Knight-Commander and the First Enchanter, and she handwaves his existance.

Meredith decrees, "As Knight-Commander of Kirkwall, I hereby invoke the Right of Annulment. Every mage in the Circle is to be executed - immediately!" Meredith demands that the Champion aid her because even he (or she) "must see that this outrage cannot be tolerated." Merrill points out the mages are innocent of the crime. "This wasn't their fault! You can't possibly want to slaughter innocent people," in response to Meredith's demand for Hawke to help her kill the mages.

Even when Anders confesses to his part in the destruction of the Chantry, Meredith acts as though she has no choice when she says, "It doesn't matter. Even if I wished to, I could not stay my hand. The people will demand blood." Which must explain why she doesn't even bother with the man who actually committed the crime...

But all of this is moot once you realize that within the Circle there were still a lot of Blood Mages and insurgents which alone would have been enough to call for the RIght. The Circle was doomed long before what Anders did.

[LobselVith8]

Torax wrote...

On Earth maybe. But not the case in Thedas. Get over it.

Why do you insist on telling people what to do? You do realize the OP focused on the Right of Annulment?

AshenEndemion wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

In other words, murder innocent people for an act Anders did because the mob will demand blood. There's no justification for the slaughter of innocent people simply to appease the public.

Innocent does not equal not guilty.  And by virtue of the Right of Annulment being approved, the mages of the Circle were found guilty....

It's not "murder or innocent people," but the "execution of guilty criminals."

The mages and apprentices of the Circle of Kirkwall were being killed because of an act Anders did, and Knight-Commander Meredith was well aware of that fact.