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[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Public opinion shouldn't condemn people to genocide. Meredith orders the execution of an entire group of people for something they didn't do. Anders openly confessed to the crime before the Knight-Commander and the First Enchanter, and she handwaves his existance.

Meredith decrees, "As Knight-Commander of Kirkwall, I hereby invoke the Right of Annulment. Every mage in the Circle is to be executed - immediately!" Meredith demands that the Champion aid her because even he (or she) "must see that this outrage cannot be tolerated." Merrill points out the mages are innocent of the crime. "This wasn't their fault! You can't possibly want to slaughter innocent people," in response to Meredith's demand for Hawke to help her kill the mages.

Even when Anders confesses to his part in the destruction of the Chantry, Meredith acts as though she has no choice when she says, "It doesn't matter. Even if I wished to, I could not stay my hand. The people will demand blood." Which must explain why she doesn't even bother with the man who actually committed the crime...

But all of this is moot once you realize that within the Circle there were still a lot of Blood Mages and insurgents which alone would have been enough to call for the RIght. The Circle was doomed long before what Anders did.

We have no idea what would have happened to the Circle in Kirkwall if Anders never destroyed the Chantry and killed Grand Cleric Elthina.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The mages and apprentices of the Circle of Kirkwall were being killed because of an act Anders did, and Knight-Commander Meredith was well aware of that fact.

And because they conspired to overthrow the Knight-Commander, and becasue they assisted apostates throughout the city, and because they harbored Blood Mages and the list goes on.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 09 avril 2011 - 08:06 .

[AshenEndymion]

LobselVith8 wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

In other words, murder innocent people for an act Anders did because the mob will demand blood. There's no justification for the slaughter of innocent people simply to appease the public.

Innocent does not equal not guilty.  And by virtue of the Right of Annulment being approved, the mages of the Circle were found guilty....

It's not "murder or innocent people," but the "execution of guilty criminals."

The mages and apprentices of the Circle of Kirkwall were being killed because of an act Anders did, and Knight-Commander Meredith was well aware of that fact.

I edited in my clarification...

The mages of the Circle of Kirkwall were found guilty of being a corrupt Circle full of Maleficarum and Abominations, NOT of killing the Grand Cleric.

If Anders did not kill the Grand Cleric, it's unlikely she would have approved the Right of Annulment without additional evidence.  Anders killing the Grand Cleric allowed the Right of Annulment to be approved based on the evidence gained already.

[AngryFrozenWater]

AshenEndemion wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

What I don't get is that you people talk about Meredith as if she made some sensible arguments. She did not. She was a fruitcake. She was possessed by the same kind of substance that made Bartrand mad. But no... Meredith made a sane decision. That does not compute.

This assumes that her reasoning for the Right of Annulment in her request to the Elthina and the Divine was non-existant and/or insane.  It may not have been approved, but it doesn't mean her reasoning for it was insane (because if it was, then Elthina is an even bigger ****** for allowing an insane Knight Commaner, who is seeing offenses that don't exist, to continue at her post).

Since that reasoning is still there, her decision is sane.  The Idol only kept her from seeing anything but her goal.

I think she was a dumb ass...

I think the chantry caused its own destruction: The grand cleric knew that Meredith was going to far. The divine must have known it too. After all: "The whole world was watching Kirkwall". Yet both didn't act. The harder Meredith squeezed, the worse the situation became. An uprising would have been inevitable. IIRC Varric painted the situation along those lines. Yet they didn't act. The divine even warned the grand cleric to get out of there. Only Cullen tried to remove Meredith from office until it was too late. Even if Anders never blew up the Chantry and Meredith never got her shiny toy a revolt would happen sooner or later. And only because the Chantry allowed Meredith to escalate.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 09 avril 2011 - 08:12 .

[Dave of Canada]

LobselVith8 wrote...

We have no idea what would have happened to the Circle in Kirkwall if Anders never destroyed the Chantry and killed Grand Cleric Elthina.

We have a very basic idea of what would've happened, though. Meredith was asking for annulment and the majority of the Circle were blood mages, Annulment would've been called regardless of Anders eventually. Hell, the public might've actually supported the mages in this scenario.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 09 avril 2011 - 08:10 .

[AshenEndymion]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

What I don't get is that you people talk about Meredith as if she made some sensible arguments. She did not. She was a fruitcake. She was possessed by the same kind of substance that made Bartrand mad. But no... Meredith made a sane decision. That does not compute.

This assumes that her reasoning for the Right of Annulment in her request to the Elthina and the Divine was non-existant and/or insane.  It may not have been approved, but it doesn't mean her reasoning for it was insane (because if it was, then Elthina is an even bigger ****** for allowing an insane Knight Commaner, who is seeing offenses that don't exist, to continue at her post).

Since that reasoning is still there, her decision is sane.  The Idol only kept her from seeing anything but her goal.

I think she was a dumb ass...

I think the chantry caused its own destruction: The grand cleric knew that Meredith was going to far. The divine must have known it too. After all: "The whole world was watching Kirkwall". Yet both didn't act. The harder Meredith squeezed, the worse the situation became. An uprising would have been inevitable. IIRC Varric painted the situation along those lines. Yet they didn't act. Only Cullen tried to remove Meredith from office until it was too late. Even if Anders never blew up the Chantry and Meredith never got her shiny toy a revolt would happen sooner or later. And only because the Chantry allowed Meredith to escalate.

Meredith only escelated because of the Maleficarum within the Circle.  If there were none to begin with, Meredith would never have squeezed the Circle.

Perhaps the blame should be laid down on the Mages of the Circle (specifically Orsino) who refused to turn in their fellow mages who were blatently breaking the law....

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
The mages and apprentices of the Circle of Kirkwall were being killed because of an act Anders did, and Knight-Commander Meredith was well aware of that fact.

And because they conspired to overthrow the Knight-Commander, and becasue they assisted apostates throughout the city, and because they harbored Blood Mages and the list goes on.

Which explains why Meredith only addresses the attack on the Kirkwall Chantry and not the attempt at insurrection that was being lead by her own templars.

[Torax]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Torax wrote...

On Earth maybe. But not the case in Thedas. Get over it.

Why do you insist on telling people what to do? You do realize the OP focused on the Right of Annulment?

Why do you insist on arguing things you and I cannot change? The game is out. You have played it right? I assume so with how much energy you and Polaris have put to this issue. But we cannot change what Meredith did. We cannot change what is out. Posting about it for a year won't change anything. Also all the characters of Thedas cannot be swayed by attempting to call things genocide or trying to get them to see equality. Even in the Qunari lands Mages are not equal afterall. You say it's me telling you what to do. I think of them as more things you should think about.

Now Imagine if I walked outside and kept yelling at the sky to rain. The sky cannot hear me. It won't motivate it at all. Infact there are no clouds in the sky at all. It gets me know where. The same is trying to advocate things for Thedas that are not and were never there in the first place. You not wanting to accept that is more like looking for an excuse to troll. I don't see productive in arguiing things form page 3 or 11. It's no matter what futile but I wager your ego demands as much as the Qun does.

Modifié par Torax, 09 avril 2011 - 08:11 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
The mages and apprentices of the Circle of Kirkwall were being killed because of an act Anders did, and Knight-Commander Meredith was well aware of that fact.

And because they conspired to overthrow the Knight-Commander, and becasue they assisted apostates throughout the city, and because they harbored Blood Mages and the list goes on.

Which explains why Meredith only addresses the attack on the Kirkwall Chantry and not the attempt at insurrection that was being lead by her own templars.

She didn't really have time to go into a debate about the finer points of the cause for the Annulment. What the hell did you expect her to do? Pull up a chair and sit down and have a talk with you, carefully explaining in fine detail just how stupid the mages had been, and that they had basically been asking for it for years? She was kind of in a hurry, you know.

[Dave of Canada]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Which explains why Meredith only addresses the attack on the Kirkwall Chantry and not the attempt at insurrection that was being lead by her own templars.

She doesn't have permission to cull the Templar and the Templar are unable to corrupt others with demons or control their minds?

[LobselVith8]

AshenEndemion wrote...

The mages of the Circle of Kirkwall were found guilty of being a corrupt Circle full of Maleficarum and Abominations, NOT of killing the Grand Cleric.

They are going to die because of what Anders did. You must have missed the dialogue Meredith says where she states: "Even you must see that this outrage cannot be tolerated."

AshenEndemion wrote...

If Anders did not kill the Grand Cleric, it's unlikely she would have approved the Right of Annulment without additional evidence.  Anders killing the Grand Cleric allowed the Right of Annulment to be approved based on the evidence gained already.

No, Anders killing Grand Cleric Elthina provided a mentally unbalanced Knight-Commander with the authority to murder innocent people for deaths that Anders caused.

[LobselVith8]

Dave of Canada wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

We have no idea what would have happened to the Circle in Kirkwall if Anders never destroyed the Chantry and killed Grand Cleric Elthina.

We have a very basic idea of what would've happened, though. Meredith was asking for annulment and the majority of the Circle were blood mages, Annulment would've been called regardless of Anders eventually. Hell, the public might've actually supported the mages in this scenario.

We have speculation on what the Divine would have said regarding the request for the Right of Annulment and you have absolutely no basis to say the majority of the Kirkwall Circle was full of blood mages.

[PantheraOnca]

AshenEndemion wrote...

I don't recall Hume and Locke being people in Thedas... Are they in a codex somewhere?

If they don't exist in the world, you cannot claim their ideas hold any value in the world.  Because their ideas never existed there.

Really? Ok this is getting silly with the "BUT DER WURLD EZ DERFNENT DAN ERS!!!!"

On the one hand, I don't think anyone has said that civil rights movements or anything like that has happened in thedas. On the other hand, we're dealing with fictional people.

These fictional people, by being people, or more accurately, thinking agents with will, by virtue of their persondom, are, in the vast majority of readers' minds afforded a certain amount of assumed rights. whether they have these rights or not in the fictional universe is irrelevant. Saying the fictional world's rules or customs are more right than westernized ones would be like saying slavery is ok on the moon. Sure no one lives there, but if someone did, how on earth does that make slavery ok? Alternatively, even if someone did live there already, why would it be ok for them to have slaves? Is "because they have slaves" a good rationale for defending why slavery is justifiable?

If you think it is, this conversation is dead in the water.

Moving on, just because an idea has been thought in this world, does not mean that it has no bearing on Thedas. If we consider human rights (person rights might be a better term) as an emergent property of living, thinking beings, then they apply to living, thinking, beings in thedas too.

Now maybe you could argue that at some fundemental but unseen level, thinking beings in thedas are, as far as their thinking or being is concerned, differnt from thinking beings in what we call the real world. this hasn't been stated by the authors, and until it is i will consider them in the same light as i would as if thedas were just another country on earth.

[AngryFrozenWater]

AshenEndemion wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

What I don't get is that you people talk about Meredith as if she made some sensible arguments. She did not. She was a fruitcake. She was possessed by the same kind of substance that made Bartrand mad. But no... Meredith made a sane decision. That does not compute.

This assumes that her reasoning for the Right of Annulment in her request to the Elthina and the Divine was non-existant and/or insane.  It may not have been approved, but it doesn't mean her reasoning for it was insane (because if it was, then Elthina is an even bigger ****** for allowing an insane Knight Commaner, who is seeing offenses that don't exist, to continue at her post).

Since that reasoning is still there, her decision is sane.  The Idol only kept her from seeing anything but her goal.

I think she was a dumb ass...

I think the chantry caused its own destruction: The grand cleric knew that Meredith was going to far. The divine must have known it too. After all: "The whole world was watching Kirkwall". Yet both didn't act. The harder Meredith squeezed, the worse the situation became. An uprising would have been inevitable. IIRC Varric painted the situation along those lines. Yet they didn't act. Only Cullen tried to remove Meredith from office until it was too late. Even if Anders never blew up the Chantry and Meredith never got her shiny toy a revolt would happen sooner or later. And only because the Chantry allowed Meredith to escalate.

Meredith only escelated because of the Maleficarum within the Circle.  If there were none to begin with, Meredith would never have squeezed the Circle.

Perhaps the blame should be laid down on the Mages of the Circle (specifically Orsino) who refused to turn in their fellow mages who were blatently breaking the law....

Come on. Be realistic for once. The mages were hunted down and treated like dirt for a very long time. Instead of doing something about it, Meredith squeezed harder. And thus the mages objected harder. Meredith squeezes more. You'll get the idea. That's what happened. It's not that the evil mages were out there to bring the innocent templars down.

[Torax]

Dave of Canada wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

We have no idea what would have happened to the Circle in Kirkwall if Anders never destroyed the Chantry and killed Grand Cleric Elthina.

We have a very basic idea of what would've happened, though. Meredith was asking for annulment and the majority of the Circle were blood mages, Annulment would've been called regardless of Anders eventually. Hell, the public might've actually supported the mages in this scenario.

If it stayed as is. There still could have been a chance that Justinia would have sent a march because of the Maleficars that were in the city. Hawke came across a few of those. This was all in Act 3. All the wheels in motion would have probably still happened without Hawke. Elthina didn't want to leave but basically to a point what Meredith did at least for the city of Kirkwall may have saved many of the innocents that could perish from an march on the city. Hard to say really. No matter what I doubt Kirkwall would have ended well.

[LobselVith8]

AshenEndemion wrote...

Meredith only escelated because of the Maleficarum within the Circle.  If there were none to begin with, Meredith would never have squeezed the Circle.

The endless "chicken and the egg" debate over Meredith and whether she caused some mages to resort to blood magic, or if it's the other way around.

AshenEndemion wrote...

Perhaps the blame should be laid down on the Mages of the Circle (specifically Orsino) who refused to turn in their fellow mages who were blatently breaking the law....

The mages were living in an enviornment of rape, torture, illegal tranquility for Harrowed mages, and death.

[EmperorSahlertz]

How many times must we point out that, Meredith wanted to annul the Circle long before Elthina's death? How many times must we repeat ourselves and explain to you that, the Annulment was called because of a number of different things, not only Anders's crime. How many times? Tell us, please. Cause then we can get it over with, and get on with the actual discussion.

[PantheraOnca]

Nashiktal wrote...


They were seen as guilty by the legal presence within the city, as followed by the way the world works in DA.

In thedas, there is no democracy. There is no Locke. There is no idea of "basic human rights" at least not in appliance to mages. 

Right and wrong as we know it does not fully fit within this world. If it is to change, it will be by some fictional figure within that world. Perhaps they will have their own locke someday.

However if said Locke entire family was killed by a young lad who turned into an abomination....

To restate what i just said in fewer words:

basic human rights exist in thedas regardless of someone writing something about them. the fact that they are routinely violated, and largely not respected does not mean that they do not exist.

[Dave of Canada]

LobselVith8 wrote...



We have speculation on what the Divine would have said regarding the request for the Right of Annulment and you have absolutely no basis to say the majority of the Kirkwall Circle was full of blood mages.

Except for how the streets are crawling with them and their thralls in Act 3.
Except Grace and the gang.
Except how the streets are filled with demons and blood mages as soon as you side with the templar or mages.
Except how Orsino is outright refusing the Templar to search the tower for Blood Magic.
Except how Orsino, the First Enchanter himself, was supporting a blood mage with supplies and uses it himself by using "willing sacrifices" (depending on ending) in the finale.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 09 avril 2011 - 08:20 .

[AshenEndymion]

LobselVith8 wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

The mages of the Circle of Kirkwall were found guilty of being a corrupt Circle full of Maleficarum and Abominations, NOT of killing the Grand Cleric.

They are going to die because of what Anders did. You must have missed the dialogue Meredith says where she states: "Even you must see that this outrage cannot be tolerated."

Yes.  They were going to die because of what Anders did.

They were not going to die because they killed the Grand Cleric.

You must have missed the dialogue where Kerras says "Meredith has sent to Val Royeaux for permission to invoke the Right of Annulment."  That means she felt she had enough evidence for the Annulment to be approved...  Anders killing the Grand Cleric allowed the Annulment to be approved.

AshenEndemion wrote...

If Anders did not kill the Grand Cleric, it's unlikely she would have approved the Right of Annulment without additional evidence.  Anders killing the Grand Cleric allowed the Right of Annulment to be approved based on the evidence gained already.

No, Anders killing Grand Cleric Elthina provided a mentally unbalanced Knight-Commander with the authority to murder innocent people for deaths that Anders caused.

Yes.  It provided the Knight commander to execute criminals for the crimes of being Maleficarum, harboring Maleficarum, and being incapable of reform.

I'm glad we agree.

[Torax]

PantheraOnca wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...


They were seen as guilty by the legal presence within the city, as followed by the way the world works in DA.

In thedas, there is no democracy. There is no Locke. There is no idea of "basic human rights" at least not in appliance to mages. 

Right and wrong as we know it does not fully fit within this world. If it is to change, it will be by some fictional figure within that world. Perhaps they will have their own locke someday.

However if said Locke entire family was killed by a young lad who turned into an abomination....

To restate what i just said in fewer words:

basic human rights exist in thedas regardless of someone writing something about them. the fact that they are routinely violated, and largely not respected does not mean that they do not exist.

Basic human rights don't exist everywhere in the world today. Why do you attempt to apply to them to a game? Just because some countries in the U.N.  have human rights. Not all do.

Modifié par Torax, 09 avril 2011 - 08:21 .

[LobselVith8]

Torax wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Why do you insist on telling people what to do? You do realize the OP focused on the Right of Annulment?

Why do you insist on arguing things you and I cannot change? The game is out. You have played it right? I assume so with how much energy you and Polaris have put to this issue. But we cannot change what Meredith did. We cannot change what is out. Posting about it for a year won't change anything.

This is a thread discussing the Right of Annulment called forth by Knight-Commander Meredith. If you don't want to participate, you don't have to. However, I see no reason for you to try to order police people on what they say.

Torax wrote...

Also all the characters of Thedas cannot be swayed by attempting to call things genocide or trying to get them to see equality. Even in the Qunari lands Mages are not equal afterall. You say it's me telling you what to do. I think of them as more things you should think about.

No one here is trying to sway the characters of DA2.

Torax wrote...

Now Imagine if I walked outside and kept yelling at the sky to rain. The sky cannot hear me. It won't motivate it at all. Infact there are no clouds in the sky at all. It gets me know where. The same is trying to advocate things for Thedas that are not and were never there in the first place. You not wanting to accept that is more like looking for an excuse to troll. I don't see productive in arguiing things form page 3 or 11. It's no matter what futile but I wager your ego demands as much as the Qun does.

You're welcome to think everyone who disagrees with your views is a troll, but if you have no inclination to discuss the Right, I don't see why you're responding to this thread where the OP is about the Right called forth by Meredith.

[AshenEndymion]

LobselVith8 wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

Perhaps the blame should be laid down on the Mages of the Circle (specifically Orsino) who refused to turn in their fellow mages who were blatently breaking the law....

The mages were living in an enviornment of rape, torture, illegal tranquility for Harrowed mages, and death.

If one does not believe anything Anders says (because he is a lying liar who lies)....
Only one mage is said to be raped, None are tortured.  None are "illegally" made tranquil, and only those who committed crimes were put to death.

I fail to see how that is any different from the plight of Alienage elves.... And they actually do turn in the people who break the law....

Modifié par AshenEndemion, 09 avril 2011 - 08:25 .

[LobselVith8]

Dave of Canada wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

We have speculation on what the Divine would have said regarding the request for the Right of Annulment and you have absolutely no basis to say the majority of the Kirkwall Circle was full of blood mages.

Except for how the streets are crawling with them and their thralls in Act 3.
Except Grace and the gang.
Except how the streets are filled with demons and blood mages as soon as you side with the templar or mages.
Except how Orsino is outright refusing the Templar to search the tower for Blood Magic.
Except how Orsino, the First Enchanter himself, was supporting a blood mage with supplies and uses it himself by using "willing sacrifices" (depending on ending) in the finale.

Orsino is one man. Grace and her people are a group of people working with templars operating under the auspicies of Ser Thrask. The actions of the few don't condemn everyone. The actions of a few mages Hawke directly encounters doesn't mean every man, woman, and child is a blood mage. It doesn't mean the majority of the Circle of Magi are blood mages.

[TJPags]

PantheraOnca wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

I don't recall Hume and Locke being people in Thedas... Are they in a codex somewhere?

If they don't exist in the world, you cannot claim their ideas hold any value in the world.  Because their ideas never existed there.

Really? Ok this is getting silly with the "BUT DER WURLD EZ DERFNENT DAN ERS!!!!"

On the one hand, I don't think anyone has said that civil rights movements or anything like that has happened in thedas. On the other hand, we're dealing with fictional people.

These fictional people, by being people, or more accurately, thinking agents with will, by virtue of their persondom, are, in the vast majority of readers' minds afforded a certain amount of assumed rights. whether they have these rights or not in the fictional universe is irrelevant. Saying the fictional world's rules or customs are more right than westernized ones would be like saying slavery is ok on the moon. Sure no one lives there, but if someone did, how on earth does that make slavery ok? Alternatively, even if someone did live there already, why would it be ok for them to have slaves? Is "because they have slaves" a good rationale for defending why slavery is justifiable?

If you think it is, this conversation is dead in the water.

Moving on, just because an idea has been thought in this world, does not mean that it has no bearing on Thedas. If we consider human rights (person rights might be a better term) as an emergent property of living, thinking beings, then they apply to living, thinking, beings in thedas too.

Now maybe you could argue that at some fundemental but unseen level, thinking beings in thedas are, as far as their thinking or being is concerned, differnt from thinking beings in what we call the real world. this hasn't been stated by the authors, and until it is i will consider them in the same light as i would as if thedas were just another country on earth.

But how does that get us anywhere?

Insisting that concepts such as "basic human rights" have to be applied in Thedas, when Thedas clearly has no concept like that, goes noplace.  It's like trying to arrest or condemn someone for owning a slave in a place that permits slavery.  It's going to get you nowhere.

I don't think anyone is going to argue that slavery is right, or that people shouldn't have "basic human rights".  These ideas are ingrained in us as right, in this world.

But in Thedas, that concept doesn't exist.  Slavery is allowed in certain countries.  Elves are less than humans.  Casteless dwarves have no rights.  And even among humans, "basic human rights" is a foreign concept that has no meaning.

Arguing that they should have meaning, I don't think you'll find people to disagree.  Arguing that the game should act as if they have meaning, that's not going to work.