1072 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

How many times must we point out that, Meredith wanted to annul the Circle long before Elthina's death? How many times must we repeat ourselves and explain to you that, the Annulment was called because of a number of different things, not only Anders's crime. How many times? Tell us, please. Cause then we can get it over with, and get on with the actual discussion.

Why must it be pointed out to you that Meredith addresses the attack on the Kirkwall Chantry as the reason for calling the Right of Annulment?

[IanPolaris]

Torax wrote...

Basic human rights don't exist everywhere in the world today. Why do you attempt to apply to them to a game? Just because some countries in the U.N.  have human rights. Not all do.

Yes they do.  The fact that many countries and regimes don't respect them doesn't mean they don't exist.  They exist by virtue of being a human being (or in Thedas they are granted to all thinking beings by the Maker).  Human rights exist because you are human (or elf, dwarf, whatever),  They may be violated but not denied.

-Polaris

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

We have no idea what would have happened to the Circle in Kirkwall if Anders never destroyed the Chantry and killed Grand Cleric Elthina.

We have a very basic idea of what would've happened, though. Meredith was asking for annulment and the majority of the Circle were blood mages, Annulment would've been called regardless of Anders eventually. Hell, the public might've actually supported the mages in this scenario.

We have speculation on what the Divine would have said regarding the request for the Right of Annulment and you have absolutely no basis to say the majority of the Kirkwall Circle was full of blood mages.

With the exception of Bethany, Ella and perhaps that Emille dude, find me other mages who do NOT turn to blood magic?  Hell, even when fighting on the side of mages, you see and have to kill more abominations, and fight more summoned creatures, than you ever see mages fighting FOR you.

it is absolutely fair to say the great majority of the Kirkwall Circle consists of blood mages, because that is what the game shows us.

Arguing that there are other mages we don't see who are not blood mages is nothing but speculation.

[LobselVith8]

AshenEndemion wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The mages were living in an enviornment of rape, torture, illegal tranquility for Harrowed mages, and death.

If one does not believe anything Anders says (because he is a lying liar who lies)....
Only one mage is said to be raped, None are tortured.  None are "illegally" made tranquil, and only those who committed crimes were put to death.

I fail to see how that is any different from the plight of Alienage elves.... And they actually do turn in the people who break the law....

Karl was illegally made tranquil despite the fact that he took the Harrowing. Alrik was making mages tranquil who had taken the Harrowing. Also, Ser Alrik was raping mages, Alain was raped, the da'len (child) was tortured by templars, two sane mages were driven insane after being imprisoned in the Gallows, and we hear about mages disappearing.

[AshenEndymion]

IanPolaris wrote...

Torax wrote...

Basic human rights don't exist everywhere in the world today. Why do you attempt to apply to them to a game? Just because some countries in the U.N.  have human rights. Not all do.

Yes they do.  The fact that many countries and regimes don't respect them doesn't mean they don't exist.  They exist by virtue of being a human being (or in Thedas they are granted to all thinking beings by the Maker).  Human rights exist because you are human (or elf, dwarf, whatever),  They may be violated but not denied.

-Polaris

Elves don't have human rights, because they are, by definition, NOT human.  There is no such thing as "sentient's rights.":whistle:

[IanPolaris]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

How many times must we point out that, Meredith wanted to annul the Circle long before Elthina's death? How many times must we repeat ourselves and explain to you that, the Annulment was called because of a number of different things, not only Anders's crime. How many times? Tell us, please. Cause then we can get it over with, and get on with the actual discussion.

Why must it be pointed out to you that Meredith addresses the attack on the Kirkwall Chantry as the reason for calling the Right of Annulment?

She doesn't have a leg to stand on on the other issues.  What some like Emperor Shatz conveniently forget is that yes, Merith already requested an annulment on Malifcarum grounds and her petition had already been denied.  It was only the temporary absence of a Grand Cleric that gives her any authority here at all and thus the only possible reason to invoke it must stem from NEW (not old) information.

-Polaris

[PantheraOnca]

Torax wrote...


Basic human rights don't exist everywhere in the world today. Why do you attempt to apply to them to a game? Just because some countries in the U.N.  have human rights. Not all do.

I think we have different definitions for exist.

You seem to be saying something along the lines of someone who is enslaved doesn't have human rights, or, that by becoming a slave, you lose any rights you may have had as a person, and now have ones equivalent to what a chair does, or none at all.

I am saying that someone who is enslaved has human rights, and that they are being violated. They are still a person with those rights, but they do not have access to those rights.

[TJPags]

IanPolaris wrote...

Torax wrote...

Basic human rights don't exist everywhere in the world today. Why do you attempt to apply to them to a game? Just because some countries in the U.N.  have human rights. Not all do.

Yes they do.  The fact that many countries and regimes don't respect them doesn't mean they don't exist.  They exist by virtue of being a human being (or in Thedas they are granted to all thinking beings by the Maker).  Human rights exist because you are human (or elf, dwarf, whatever),  They may be violated but not denied.

-Polaris

I think, with this post, this conversation has to be over.

The concept does not exist in Thedas.  Wishing it were so or insisting it were so does not make it so.

[IanPolaris]

TJPags wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

We have no idea what would have happened to the Circle in Kirkwall if Anders never destroyed the Chantry and killed Grand Cleric Elthina.

We have a very basic idea of what would've happened, though. Meredith was asking for annulment and the majority of the Circle were blood mages, Annulment would've been called regardless of Anders eventually. Hell, the public might've actually supported the mages in this scenario.

We have speculation on what the Divine would have said regarding the request for the Right of Annulment and you have absolutely no basis to say the majority of the Kirkwall Circle was full of blood mages.

With the exception of Bethany, Ella and perhaps that Emille dude, find me other mages who do NOT turn to blood magic?  Hell, even when fighting on the side of mages, you see and have to kill more abominations, and fight more summoned creatures, than you ever see mages fighting FOR you.

it is absolutely fair to say the great majority of the Kirkwall Circle consists of blood mages, because that is what the game shows us.

Arguing that there are other mages we don't see who are not blood mages is nothing but speculation.

Even the Devs admit that DA2 in Act 3 presents an extremely one sided and skewed view of Kirkwall's mages.

-Polaris

[hoorayforicecream]

[PantheraOnca]

AshenEndemion wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Torax wrote...

Basic human rights don't exist everywhere in the world today. Why do you attempt to apply to them to a game? Just because some countries in the U.N.  have human rights. Not all do.

Yes they do.  The fact that many countries and regimes don't respect them doesn't mean they don't exist.  They exist by virtue of being a human being (or in Thedas they are granted to all thinking beings by the Maker).  Human rights exist because you are human (or elf, dwarf, whatever),  They may be violated but not denied.

-Polaris

Elves don't have human rights, because they are, by definition, NOT human.  There is no such thing as "sentient's rights.":whistle:

:whistle:Troll on brotha', troll on.

[Camenae]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Win.

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

We have speculation on what the Divine would have said regarding the request for the Right of Annulment and you have absolutely no basis to say the majority of the Kirkwall Circle was full of blood mages.

With the exception of Bethany, Ella and perhaps that Emille dude, find me other mages who do NOT turn to blood magic?  Hell, even when fighting on the side of mages, you see and have to kill more abominations, and fight more summoned creatures, than you ever see mages fighting FOR you.

it is absolutely fair to say the great majority of the Kirkwall Circle consists of blood mages, because that is what the game shows us.

Arguing that there are other mages we don't see who are not blood mages is nothing but speculation.

If Dave of Canada wants to state that the majority of mages in the Kirkwall Circle are blood mages, I expect to see proof to back up such an assertion. Hawke never encounters the many denizens of the Gallows, so the protagonist can't say all or the majority of the Circle mages are dabbling in blood magic, because we have no knowledge to make such a claim.

[TJPags]

PantheraOnca wrote...

Torax wrote...


Basic human rights don't exist everywhere in the world today. Why do you attempt to apply to them to a game? Just because some countries in the U.N.  have human rights. Not all do.

I think we have different definitions for exist.

You seem to be saying something along the lines of someone who is enslaved doesn't have human rights, or, that by becoming a slave, you lose any rights you may have had as a person, and now have ones equivalent to what a chair does, or none at all.

I am saying that someone who is enslaved has human rights, and that they are being violated. They are still a person with those rights, but they do not have access to those rights.

Here on earth, we think this is true.

On Thedas, they do not.

[Dave of Canada]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Orsino is one man. Grace and her people are a group of people working with templars operating under the auspicies of Ser Thrask. The actions of the few don't condemn everyone. The actions of a few mages Hawke directly encounters doesn't mean every man, woman, and child is a blood mage. It doesn't mean the majority of the Circle of Magi are blood mages.

And what about the groups of them littering the streets that were attacking pedestrians (and you), using the pedestrians as their thralls? Or the ones in the Circle of Magi summoning demons? We've got a large group of mages that are blood mages, we've got the Grace gang, we've got blood mages running rampant in the streets and the first enchanter himself is a blood mage.

Kirkwall's Circle annulment was going to happen, it was only a matter of time. Blood mages were everywhere in act 3, almost every mage you helped somehow return to bite you in the ass and the first enchanter himself--which looks like a reasonable guy--is one. You can't pretend that blood mages were the "few".

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 09 avril 2011 - 08:34 .

[Torax]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Torax wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Why do you insist on telling people what to do? You do realize the OP focused on the Right of Annulment?

Why do you insist on arguing things you and I cannot change? The game is out. You have played it right? I assume so with how much energy you and Polaris have put to this issue. But we cannot change what Meredith did. We cannot change what is out. Posting about it for a year won't change anything.

This is a thread discussing the Right of Annulment called forth by Knight-Commander Meredith. If you don't want to participate, you don't have to. However, I see no reason for you to try to order police people on what they say.

Torax wrote...

Also all the characters of Thedas cannot be swayed by attempting to call things genocide or trying to get them to see equality. Even in the Qunari lands Mages are not equal afterall. You say it's me telling you what to do. I think of them as more things you should think about.

No one here is trying to sway the characters of DA2.

Torax wrote...

Now Imagine if I walked outside and kept yelling at the sky to rain. The sky cannot hear me. It won't motivate it at all. Infact there are no clouds in the sky at all. It gets me know where. The same is trying to advocate things for Thedas that are not and were never there in the first place. You not wanting to accept that is more like looking for an excuse to troll. I don't see productive in arguiing things form page 3 or 11. It's no matter what futile but I wager your ego demands as much as the Qun does.

You're welcome to think everyone who disagrees with your views is a troll, but if you have no inclination to discuss the Right, I don't see why you're responding to this thread where the OP is about the Right called forth by Meredith.

We have discussed the right. But when it is on the topic of the right other opinions appeared to be discarded by Ian and yourself when it doesn't match your frame of mind. Civil Rights are not in regards to the Right of Annulment. Reason why? It was already established that those invoking it in game do not think of the mages as people. The Legality of trying to contact to the Divine was also proven wrong that basically the G.C. being killed gave her the authority she required for that one moment. She was going to enact it and damn the consequences. I don't think it's right for her to do. But I cannot change it and talking about it like everyone who disagrees or can see the other side's opinion is automatically a mage hating child killer gets no where.

You may not see the argument going that way. But look at how many pages the thread has gone without really adding anything. It's circular with you just using words like Genocide as a bullet point to attempt to add more weight to things we still have no power over.  Meanwhile you friend was going further by attempting to make a writer from Bioware out to be the enemy when all he was trying to do was add a perspective to the conversation that it was lacking. He is then painted out as a mage hater by your friend especially. Adding things like trying to imply it's his personal opinion. This is what appeared to be the real intent of the thread.

You can keep trying to go back to it as if you are really discussing anything new. You are not. You can also attempt to avoid or cloud the issue with bullet points thinking it helps you further. Just in the end calling it Genocide doesn't change the argument here. If the Templars in the game do not thing it's genocide? Then they will enact the right willingly. I would think that many of the Templars would hate doing it and regret it I'm sure. Like the templar that would let a young mage child sit on his shoulder as he carries them to the circle. They are not all villains and not all mages are villains. But there are definitely a lot of villains on both sides in Thedas. We just didn't get to see as many dirty templars. Which is a shame.

[AshenEndymion]

LobselVith8 wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The mages were living in an enviornment of rape, torture, illegal tranquility for Harrowed mages, and death.

If one does not believe anything Anders says (because he is a lying liar who lies)....
Only one mage is said to be raped, None are tortured.  None are "illegally" made tranquil, and only those who committed crimes were put to death.

I fail to see how that is any different from the plight of Alienage elves.... And they actually do turn in the people who break the law....

Karl was illegally made tranquil despite the fact that he took the Harrowing. Alrik was making mages tranquil who had taken the Harrowing. Also, Ser Alrik was raping mages, Alain was raped, the da'len (child) was tortured by templars, two sane mages were driven insane after being imprisoned in the Gallows, and we hear about mages disappearing.

Evidence, beyond Anders' word that Karl passed his harrowing?  Karl never says it.
Evidence that Alric was making mages tranquil?  He requested it, but it was denied.  No evidence he actually made anyone tranquil.  He threatened it, then died.
Alain was raped.  Conceded.  No evidence that Alrik actually raped anyone.  Only that he was going to, then he died.
Child is only tortured by templars if you send Feyn'rial to the Dalish.  Conceded.  But one instance does not equal all the time.  If it did, then one instance of blood magic equals eveyrone is a blood mage.

Mages going insane does not mean templars are at fault.  Only that they went insane.  If correlation = causation, templars turning on their own in the presence of blood mages who can control peoples minds = templars being controlled by blood mages.

Modifié par AshenEndemion, 09 avril 2011 - 08:34 .

[TJPags]

IanPolaris wrote...

TJPags wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

We have no idea what would have happened to the Circle in Kirkwall if Anders never destroyed the Chantry and killed Grand Cleric Elthina.

We have a very basic idea of what would've happened, though. Meredith was asking for annulment and the majority of the Circle were blood mages, Annulment would've been called regardless of Anders eventually. Hell, the public might've actually supported the mages in this scenario.

We have speculation on what the Divine would have said regarding the request for the Right of Annulment and you have absolutely no basis to say the majority of the Kirkwall Circle was full of blood mages.

With the exception of Bethany, Ella and perhaps that Emille dude, find me other mages who do NOT turn to blood magic?  Hell, even when fighting on the side of mages, you see and have to kill more abominations, and fight more summoned creatures, than you ever see mages fighting FOR you.

it is absolutely fair to say the great majority of the Kirkwall Circle consists of blood mages, because that is what the game shows us.

Arguing that there are other mages we don't see who are not blood mages is nothing but speculation.

Even the Devs admit that DA2 in Act 3 presents an extremely one sided and skewed view of Kirkwall's mages.

-Polaris

Exactly - the game gives us this information.

To say the actual story is otherwise is speculation, ie, without evidentiary basis.

[TJPags]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Indeed.

The Right of Anullment was legally invoked.

Mages on Thedas do not have any kind of "basic human rights".

/thread.

[Torax]

IanPolaris wrote...

TJPags wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

We have no idea what would have happened to the Circle in Kirkwall if Anders never destroyed the Chantry and killed Grand Cleric Elthina.

We have a very basic idea of what would've happened, though. Meredith was asking for annulment and the majority of the Circle were blood mages, Annulment would've been called regardless of Anders eventually. Hell, the public might've actually supported the mages in this scenario.

We have speculation on what the Divine would have said regarding the request for the Right of Annulment and you have absolutely no basis to say the majority of the Kirkwall Circle was full of blood mages.

With the exception of Bethany, Ella and perhaps that Emille dude, find me other mages who do NOT turn to blood magic?  Hell, even when fighting on the side of mages, you see and have to kill more abominations, and fight more summoned creatures, than you ever see mages fighting FOR you.

it is absolutely fair to say the great majority of the Kirkwall Circle consists of blood mages, because that is what the game shows us.

Arguing that there are other mages we don't see who are not blood mages is nothing but speculation.

Even the Devs admit that DA2 in Act 3 presents an extremely one sided and skewed view of Kirkwall's mages.

-Polaris

It is far too one sided and it is a shame. The Right of Annulment was the flaw really. It required trying to make the mages look more evil as an excuse to possibly kill a sibling and so on. Unforunately it's too late. What is done is done. I don't like it though. It seemed pointless and truth be told they basically threw so much blood magic and mages at me that I just hope the next game doesn't use it as much of a focus. Kind of tired of it.

[LobselVith8]

Dave of Canada wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Orsino is one man. Grace and her people are a group of people working with templars operating under the auspicies of Ser Thrask. The actions of the few don't condemn everyone. The actions of a few mages Hawke directly encounters doesn't mean every man, woman, and child is a blood mage. It doesn't mean the majority of the Circle of Magi are blood mages.

And what about the groups of them littering the streets that were attacking pedestrians (and you), using the pedestrians as their thralls? Or the ones in the Circle of Magi summoning demons? We've got a large group of mages that are blood mages, we've got the Grace gang, we've got blood mages running rampant in the streets and the first enchanter himself is a blood mage.

It's no different than saying because Hawke attacks large groups of criminals in Kirkwall who happen to be human, that the majority of humans in Kirkwall are criminals. There's no evidence to back up a claim that the majority of the Circle mages are blood mages when we have zero evidence to back up such a statement. What we can say is that they are innocent of the specific crime that Anders committed, which he freely confessed to before the Knight-Commander and the First Enchanter.

Dave of Canada wrote...

Kirkwall's Circle annulment was going to happen, it was only a matter of time. Blood mages were everywhere in act 3, almost every mage you helped somehow return to bite you in the ass and the first enchanter himself--which looks like a reasonable guy--is one. You can't pretend that blood mages were the "few".

I read speculation in your comments, not fact. Your "opinion" =/= "fact."

[LobselVith8]

Torax wrote...

We have discussed the right. But when it is on the topic of the right other opinions appeared to be discarded by Ian and yourself when it doesn't match your frame of mind. Civil Rights are not in regards to the Right of Annulment. Reason why?

The absense of rights is an issue people have with the Chantry controlled Circles. Why shouldn't this be expressed in a thread that focuses on the Right of Annulment, especially given what followed for the Circle of Magi?

Torax wrote...

It was already established that those invoking it in game do not think of the mages as people.

That's unfortunate.

Torax wrote...

The Legality of trying to contact to the Divine was also proven wrong that basically the G.C. being killed gave her the authority she required for that one moment. She was going to enact it and damn the consequences. I don't think it's right for her to do. But I cannot change it and talking about it like everyone who disagrees or can see the other side's opinion is automatically a mage hating child killer gets no where.

I think people can disagree and not let it get personal.

[PantheraOnca]

TJPags wrote...


Here on earth, we think this is true.

On Thedas, they do not.

Thinking or not thinking about SENTIENT (smartasses) rights does not preclude them from existing.

[EmperorSahlertz]

PantheraOnca wrote...

Torax wrote...


Basic human rights don't exist everywhere in the world today. Why do you attempt to apply to them to a game? Just because some countries in the U.N.  have human rights. Not all do.

I think we have different definitions for exist.

You seem to be saying something along the lines of someone who is enslaved doesn't have human rights, or, that by becoming a slave, you lose any rights you may have had as a person, and now have ones equivalent to what a chair does, or none at all.

I am saying that someone who is enslaved has human rights, and that they are being violated. They are still a person with those rights, but they do not have access to those rights.

Why are you talking like human rights are some sort of universal truth?

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 09 avril 2011 - 08:44 .

[Dave of Canada]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I read speculation in your comments, not fact. Your "opinion" =/= "fact."

Fine, everything that happens in the game is speculation. No point in arguing with a wall, I guess.