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[Torax]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Orsino is one man. Grace and her people are a group of people working with templars operating under the auspicies of Ser Thrask. The actions of the few don't condemn everyone. The actions of a few mages Hawke directly encounters doesn't mean every man, woman, and child is a blood mage. It doesn't mean the majority of the Circle of Magi are blood mages.

And what about the groups of them littering the streets that were attacking pedestrians (and you), using the pedestrians as their thralls? Or the ones in the Circle of Magi summoning demons? We've got a large group of mages that are blood mages, we've got the Grace gang, we've got blood mages running rampant in the streets and the first enchanter himself is a blood mage.

It's no different than saying because Hawke attacks large groups of criminals in Kirkwall who happen to be human, that the majority of humans in Kirkwall are criminals. There's no evidence to back up a claim that the majority of the Circle mages are blood mages when we have zero evidence to back up such a statement. What we can say is that they are innocent of the specific crime that Anders committed, which he freely confessed to before the Knight-Commander and the First Enchanter.

Dave of Canada wrote...

Kirkwall's Circle annulment was going to happen, it was only a matter of time. Blood mages were everywhere in act 3, almost every mage you helped somehow return to bite you in the ass and the first enchanter himself--which looks like a reasonable guy--is one. You can't pretend that blood mages were the "few".

I read speculation in your comments, not fact. Your "opinion" =/= "fact."

It's speculation for most to attempt to predict what would happen. There did seem to be a bit of blood magic about. How many were circle or not?  Speculation. Only a few things could be speculated more accurately. Like Leliana seemed to imply that Justinia wanted to march on Kirkwall. The decision made when the attack was made at the meeting location. I guess that attack in the long run doomed many in Kirkwall. With or without the Right of Annulment much blood was to be spilled in Kirkwall. It appears anyway.

[AshenEndymion]

PantheraOnca wrote...

TJPags wrote...


Here on earth, we think this is true.

On Thedas, they do not.

Thinking or not thinking about SENTIENT (smartasses) rights does not preclude them from existing.

I'm glad I proved a point, even though it was trollish.

Seriously, though.... If no one has basic rights, do they exists?  Or do they not exist until someone has those rights?

The idea of basic rights exists on earth.  Mages (or at least Anders) seems to believe that mages should have basic rights (but not anyone else... like say elves in an Alienage or casteless dwarves).  But the idea of equal rights for all(which is what "human rights" are)?  Doesn't exist in Thedas....

And the insistence that it does, does not make it so.

Modifié par AshenEndemion, 09 avril 2011 - 08:49 .

[Torax]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Torax wrote...

We have discussed the right. But when it is on the topic of the right other opinions appeared to be discarded by Ian and yourself when it doesn't match your frame of mind. Civil Rights are not in regards to the Right of Annulment. Reason why?

The absense of rights is an issue people have with the Chantry controlled Circles. Why shouldn't this be expressed in a thread that focuses on the Right of Annulment, especially given what followed for the Circle of Magi?

Torax wrote...

It was already established that those invoking it in game do not think of the mages as people.

That's unfortunate.

Torax wrote...

The Legality of trying to contact to the Divine was also proven wrong that basically the G.C. being killed gave her the authority she required for that one moment. She was going to enact it and damn the consequences. I don't think it's right for her to do. But I cannot change it and talking about it like everyone who disagrees or can see the other side's opinion is automatically a mage hating child killer gets no where.

I think people can disagree and not let it get personal.

I'll submit this as evidence that you also take things personal at times and any who diasgree with you as a frontal personal attack. The whole White or Black thing. Why can't it be grays?

Your friend Ian seems to take it more personal. Especially if he's proven wrong by Gaider. It makes Gaider the enemy for example. Don't hide and act diplomatic and yet discard opinions and view points that differ from your's. It demeans everything. I'm sure you'd love to paint us all as the enemies but you should also consider that your actions and attitude leads up to this. Like talking to a wall.

Modifié par Torax, 09 avril 2011 - 08:50 .

[The Baconer]

AshenEndemion wrote...
I'm glad I proved a point, even though it was trollish.

Seriously, though.... If no one has basic rights, do they exists?  Or do they not exist until someone has those rights?

The idea of basic rights exists on earth.  Mages (or at least Anders) seems to believe that mages should have basic rights (but not anyone else... like say elves in an Alienage or casteless dwarves).  But the idea of equal rights for all(which is what "human rights" are)?  Doesn't exist in Thedas....

And the insistence that it does, does not make it so.

Then I assume people will stop hatin' on Tevinter for having slaves?

[Torax]

The Baconer wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...
I'm glad I proved a point, even though it was trollish.

Seriously, though.... If no one has basic rights, do they exists?  Or do they not exist until someone has those rights?

The idea of basic rights exists on earth.  Mages (or at least Anders) seems to believe that mages should have basic rights (but not anyone else... like say elves in an Alienage or casteless dwarves).  But the idea of equal rights for all(which is what "human rights" are)?  Doesn't exist in Thedas....

And the insistence that it does, does not make it so.

Then I assume people will stop hatin' on Tevinter for having slaves?

I think some mage supporters will overlook that little tidbit just because the mages are in power over there.

[AshenEndymion]

The Baconer wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...
I'm glad I proved a point, even though it was trollish.

Seriously, though.... If no one has basic rights, do they exists?  Or do they not exist until someone has those rights?

The idea of basic rights exists on earth.  Mages (or at least Anders) seems to believe that mages should have basic rights (but not anyone else... like say elves in an Alienage or casteless dwarves).  But the idea of equal rights for all(which is what "human rights" are)?  Doesn't exist in Thedas....

And the insistence that it does, does not make it so.

Then I assume people will stop hatin' on Tevinter for having slaves?

Not being a slave does not mean you have "equal rights."

Just ask the Alienage elves, the casteless dwarves, the mages, and the underpriveledged humans....

And I was onder the impression that the rest of Thedas doesn't hate tevinter because they have slaves... but because they are mainly ruled by Magisters.

Orlais doesn't believe in "slavery" but that doesn't mean the Dalish/Alienge Elf Warden won't call it that (because, really, that's probably what it is).

[LobselVith8]

Torax wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

Then I assume people will stop hatin' on Tevinter for having slaves?

I think some mage supporters will overlook that little tidbit just because the mages are in power over there.

Many people on the pro-mage side have criticized the slavery of the Imperium.

[AshenEndymion]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Torax wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

Then I assume people will stop hatin' on Tevinter for having slaves?

I think some mage supporters will overlook that little tidbit just because the mages are in power over there.

Many people on the pro-mage side have criticized the slavery of the Imperium.

I'm skeptical.  Can you name one that is not named Hawke?

[Torax]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Torax wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

Then I assume people will stop hatin' on Tevinter for having slaves?

I think some mage supporters will overlook that little tidbit just because the mages are in power over there.

Many people on the pro-mage side have criticized the slavery of the Imperium.

Doesn't imply just players. I'm sure many mages and npcs who support the use of magic may look up to Tevinter and ignore the slavery for the power they crave. The Tevinter mages, at least many of them from Fenris' point of view seem to covet power and standing. The slaves just a tool like the rest to that end. So they ignore the rights of those below them if it helps them increase power and rank. Kind of a dark place really. I wouldn't want to be there.

[LobselVith8]

Torax wrote...

I'll submit this as evidence that you also take things personal at times and any who diasgree with you as a frontal personal attack. The whole White or Black thing. Why can't it be grays?

Because I disagree with the Chantry controlled Circles?

Torax wrote...

Don't hide and act diplomatic and yet discard opinions and view points that differ from your's. It demeans everything. I'm sure you'd love to paint us all as the enemies but you should also consider that your actions and attitude leads up to this. Like talking to a wall.

"Discard opinions"? If someone makes a statement as a fact, but doesn't back it up with anything to substantiate it, I see no reason not to address it. And  I don't see people who agree with the Chantry controlled Circles or the templars as enemies, because this is a discussion about a fictional fantasy world. It's not personal.

[TJPags]

PantheraOnca wrote...

TJPags wrote...


Here on earth, we think this is true.

On Thedas, they do not.

Thinking or not thinking about SENTIENT (smartasses) rights does not preclude them from existing.

Would you pefer I say that on Thedas such a concept is not recognized?

No matter how you want to phrase it, its not a valid argument in discussing what happens on Thedas.

Its sort of like trying to draw a comparison to how we here on earth treat our mages.

[The Baconer]

Torax wrote...

I think some mage supporters will overlook that little tidbit just because the mages are in power over there.

Point is if you're going to say "Well, you can't look at it from that viewpoint because there is no concept of equal rights in Thedas!" about mages, then you can't use slavery in Tevinter as a criticism against mages being free or in power.

[LobselVith8]

Torax wrote...

Doesn't imply just players. I'm sure many mages and npcs who support the use of magic may look up to Tevinter and ignore the slavery for the power they crave. The Tevinter mages, at least many of them from Fenris' point of view seem to covet power and standing. The slaves just a tool like the rest to that end. So they ignore the rights of those below them if it helps them increase power and rank. Kind of a dark place really. I wouldn't want to be there.

I was thinking mostly of Merrill and the Dalish. The only mage I can think of who didn't think the Imperium was that bad was Anders, based on what he said in Amaranthine and the gift you can give him in Act II (besides the Tevinter slavers, of course).

[Torax]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Torax wrote...

I'll submit this as evidence that you also take things personal at times and any who diasgree with you as a frontal personal attack. The whole White or Black thing. Why can't it be grays?

Because I disagree with the Chantry controlled Circles?

Torax wrote...

Don't hide and act diplomatic and yet discard opinions and view points that differ from your's. It demeans everything. I'm sure you'd love to paint us all as the enemies but you should also consider that your actions and attitude leads up to this. Like talking to a wall.

"Discard opinions"? If someone makes a statement as a fact, but doesn't back it up with anything to substantiate it, I see no reason not to address it. And  I don't see people who agree with the Chantry controlled Circles or the templars as enemies, because this is a discussion about a fictional fantasy world. It's not personal.

Disagreement with the position is fine. So now explain to me is then is right to paint the Lead Writer as a mage hater because all he did is state a point of view that some in thedas would have. Trying to imply that cause he typed it he must believe it himself? Who is taking it personal there?

[Torax]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Torax wrote...

Doesn't imply just players. I'm sure many mages and npcs who support the use of magic may look up to Tevinter and ignore the slavery for the power they crave. The Tevinter mages, at least many of them from Fenris' point of view seem to covet power and standing. The slaves just a tool like the rest to that end. So they ignore the rights of those below them if it helps them increase power and rank. Kind of a dark place really. I wouldn't want to be there.

I was thinking mostly of Merrill and the Dalish. The only mage I can think of who didn't think the Imperium was that bad was Anders, based on what he said in Amaranthine and the gift you can give him in Act II (besides the Tevinter slavers, of course).

Doesn't have to be even just companions. Some of the Liberatarians may want it to be like Tevinter. Able to look past the injustice of slaves so they can be in power. The Uldred types. The at all costs sorts. Which even Meredith was a damn the consequences while looking at other beings as basically dogs to be put down. It is what makes villains. Gray is more moderate and is probably not interesting. So instead it's white or black. Until that nicer First Enchanter guy goes all "Harvester" on us and then we realize how wasted our time was.

Modifié par Torax, 09 avril 2011 - 09:07 .

[LobselVith8]

Torax wrote...

Disagreement with the position is fine. So now explain to me is then is right to paint the Lead Writer as a mage hater because all he did is state a point of view that some in thedas would have. Trying to imply that cause he typed it he must believe it himself? Who is taking it personal there?

You mean when I addressed that Gaider responded to my comment about the Circle mages being innocent of the crime Anders committed with his own response that said that the Circle mages were only innocent of being mages and going on about how they explode?

[1Nosphorus1]

Torax wrote...

Basic human rights don't exist everywhere in the world today. Why do you attempt to apply to them to a game? Just because some countries in the U.N.  have human rights. Not all do.

You can say that, but certain things were changed in the game to accomodate a certain minority group due to complaints about relationships in previous games in the series, real life ****ing will have an impact on the game world I can assure you.

[LobselVith8]

Torax wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I was thinking mostly of Merrill and the Dalish. The only mage I can think of who didn't think the Imperium was that bad was Anders, based on what he said in Amaranthine and the gift you can give him in Act II (besides the Tevinter slavers, of course).

Doesn't have to be even just companions. Some of the Liberatarians may want it to be like Tevinter. Able to look past the injustice of slaves so they can be in power. The Uldred types. The at all costs sorts. Which even Meredith was a damn the consequences while looking at other beings as basically dogs to be put down. It is what makes villains. Gray is more moderate and is probably not interesting. So instead it's white or black. Until that nicer First Enchanter guy goes all "Harvester" on us and then we realize how wasted our time was.

Uldred never said he wanted it to be like the Imperium. The mages who fought with him wanted freedom from the Chantry and the templars. The focus of the Libertarians is freedom from the Chantry. Even the Resolutionists that Leliana mentioned seem focused on mage freedom as opposed to recreating the Imperium. I think there's a big difference between the mages who want freedom from the Chantry and the mages who want to oppress people through a magocracy.

[Torax]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Torax wrote...

Disagreement with the position is fine. So now explain to me is then is right to paint the Lead Writer as a mage hater because all he did is state a point of view that some in thedas would have. Trying to imply that cause he typed it he must believe it himself? Who is taking it personal there?

You mean when I addressed that Gaider responded to my comment about the Circle mages being innocent of the crime Anders committed with his own response that said that the Circle mages were only innocent of being mages and going on about how they explode?

You have mentioned that event repeatedly as if evidence that he hates mages. Like in support of them not being people. Ian has done the same thing. You both seem to be taking what he says very personal. So don't try to act like you are not. Or you never would have brought it up as much like an afront against your core beliefs.

[Torax]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Torax wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I was thinking mostly of Merrill and the Dalish. The only mage I can think of who didn't think the Imperium was that bad was Anders, based on what he said in Amaranthine and the gift you can give him in Act II (besides the Tevinter slavers, of course).

Doesn't have to be even just companions. Some of the Liberatarians may want it to be like Tevinter. Able to look past the injustice of slaves so they can be in power. The Uldred types. The at all costs sorts. Which even Meredith was a damn the consequences while looking at other beings as basically dogs to be put down. It is what makes villains. Gray is more moderate and is probably not interesting. So instead it's white or black. Until that nicer First Enchanter guy goes all "Harvester" on us and then we realize how wasted our time was.

Uldred never said he wanted it to be like the Imperium. The mages who fought with him wanted freedom from the Chantry and the templars. The focus of the Libertarians is freedom from the Chantry. Even the Resolutionists that Leliana mentioned seem focused on mage freedom as opposed to recreating the Imperium. I think there's a big difference between the mages who want freedom from the Chantry and the mages who want to oppress people through a magocracy.

Just saying how some like mages may not have sympathy for slaves or care about them considering their past experiances. Sure they never explicitly state that they support slavery or Tevinter. But they never denounce it either.

[LobselVith8]

Torax wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You mean when I addressed that Gaider responded to my comment about the Circle mages being innocent of the crime Anders committed with his own response that said that the Circle mages were only innocent of being mages and going on about how they explode?

You have mentioned that event repeatedly as if evidence that he hates mages. Like in support of them not being people. Ian has done the same thing. You both seem to be taking what he says very personal. So don't try to act like you are not. Or you never would have brought it up as much like an afront against your core beliefs.

I've mentioned it to address previously to explain why the thread is ongoing since the OP was answered. I've never made any claim that he hates mages.

[Torax]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Torax wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You mean when I addressed that Gaider responded to my comment about the Circle mages being innocent of the crime Anders committed with his own response that said that the Circle mages were only innocent of being mages and going on about how they explode?

You have mentioned that event repeatedly as if evidence that he hates mages. Like in support of them not being people. Ian has done the same thing. You both seem to be taking what he says very personal. So don't try to act like you are not. Or you never would have brought it up as much like an afront against your core beliefs.

I've mentioned it to address previously to explain why the thread is ongoing since the OP was answered. I've never made any claim that he hates mages.

Why though in all honesty. It has been brought up over and over. Pages upon pages ago. Yes they were oppressed. Yes not all of them were guilty of the chantry turning into a light show. But they do have the potential for being more dangerous than a regular person through the eyes of some in Thedas. It is a shame but we cannot change it. Talking about it until your keyboard falls to pieces still will not change that. Why drive it further at all unless to troll or because you do take it personal on some level?

[Xewaka]

The Baconer wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...
I'm glad I proved a point, even though it was trollish.
Seriously, though.... If no one has basic rights, do they exists?  Or do they not exist until someone has those rights?
The idea of basic rights exists on earth.  Mages (or at least Anders) seems to believe that mages should have basic rights (but not anyone else... like say elves in an Alienage or casteless dwarves).  But the idea of equal rights for all(which is what "human rights" are)?  Doesn't exist in Thedas....
And the insistence that it does, does not make it so.

Then I assume people will stop hatin' on Tevinter for having slaves?

Actually, if Tevinter proves anything, is that keeping Mages imprisoned and under check is the best way to defend the personal freedom of the majority of the population.

[stobie]

I think I'd like to ask Anders (or his creators) if ultimately, he believes mages *should* have special rights, or access to more power as in Tevinter, or does he genuinely want simply more freedom and kindness for them? (I'd have to say, starting a war is more likely to grant power & control than 'live in peace' though)

I'm not sure about this. When I first played through, I was with him in this - mages shouldn't be treated like dangerous animals before the fact, even if they ARE dangerous. But I felt the same about casteless dwarves and elves, too. Some of the things he says tend to indicate that he feels mages are actually superior - and once you think that, you're a real danger, whatever your class/spec/race. (clearly, Fenris fears mages tend toward this, for good reason)

My Hawke & mage warden want peace, a mage in a normal life - they don't want power over others. It's interesting to speculate whether or not Anders wants the same. I think THIS is why I felt it was a weird ending. If he wants peace & a better life for mages, this won't do it. If he wants a land where mages can end up with supreme power, it might be. (and if they lose, it's death, which he appears to deem better than powerlessness.)

eta:  Basically, does Anders believe mages are actually better, blessed, etc, & that the Chantry has lied to keep them out of power, or is he just as he presents himself, standing up for people who are imprisoned & controlled?

Modifié par stobie, 09 avril 2011 - 09:39 .

[Torax]

stobie wrote...

I think I'd like to ask Anders (or his creators) if ultimately, he believes mages *should* have special rights, or access to more power as in Tevinter, or does he genuinely want simply more freedom and kindness for them? (I'd have to say, starting a war is more likely to grant power & control than 'live in peace' though)

I'm not sure about this. When I first played through, I was with him in this - mages shouldn't be treated like dangerous animals before the fact, even if they ARE dangerous. But I felt the same about casteless dwarves and elves, too. Some of the things he says tend to indicate that he feels mages are actually superior - and once you think that, you're a real danger, whatever your class/spec/race. (clearly, Fenris fears mages tend toward this, for good reason)

My Hawke & mage warden want peace, a mage in a normal life - they don't want power over others. It's interesting to speculate whether or not Anders wants the same. I think THIS is why I felt it was a weird ending. If he wants peace & a better life for mages, this won't do it. If he wants a land where mages can end up with supreme power, it might be. (and if they lose, it's death, which he appears to deem better than powerlessness.)

Anders is a mixed bag. How he was in Awakenings is far different from what you meet in DA2. Infact some of that could be Justice's influence and not Anders. Justice could view mages as superior just like Valor appeared to in the Magi Origins. Reason being spirits are able to will things into being. Just like Demons can. Anyway, Valor seemed to think that mortals who cannot do the same must have less full lives or something to that effect. So to a point some spirits of the fade may very well see Mages as superior to other mortals for being able to create things with their mind. So almost like a spirit seeing themselves in said mages.

Something worth pondering anyway.

Modifié par Torax, 09 avril 2011 - 09:43 .