1072 réponses à ce sujet

[Privateerkev]

Say I am a cop waiting outside a house for a warrant to arrive. While waiting, a gun goes off in the house. I no longer have to wait for the warrant.

That is what happened here...

[Darth Krytie]

Privateerkev wrote...

Say I am a cop waiting outside a house for a warrant to arrive. While waiting, a gun goes off in the house. I no longer have to wait for the warrant.

That is what happened here...

More like, you're a cop waiting outside a house for a warrant to arrive. While waiting, a gun goes off across the street and you see the man who shot it. Instead of arresting him, you claim probable cause and burst into the house without the warrant.

Modifié par Darth Krytie, 10 avril 2011 - 05:49 .

[PantheraOnca]

TJPags wrote...


So, what, they don't define certain people as people?  Doesn't that, again, mean that they don't think ALL people have rights?

Well, we're quickly leaving the territory of everyday language.

In your first question, the first word people is not the same as the second word people, for instance. This allows them to think that all (relevant) people have rights. Tevinter see non-mages as beasts of burden essentially, Orlais does the same for servants/non-nobility. The qun seem to view those who do not follow the qun more as children rather than beasts in that they can be taught how to be "people."

[Privateerkev]

Darth Krytie wrote...

Privateerkev wrote...

Say I am a cop waiting outside a house for a warrant to arrive. While waiting, a gun goes off in the house. I no longer have to wait for the warrant.

That is what happened here...

More like, you're a cop waiting outside a house for a warrant to arrive. While waiting, a gun goes off across the street and you see the man who shot it. Instead of arresting him, you claim probable cause and burst into the house without the warrant.

The point is, waiting for permission does not negate your ability and responsibility to respond to a change in situation. You can certainly argue that the wrong response was given. But meredith, and my cop, did not have all the facts. And were most likely responding with their own ideological blinders in place. And at least one had a giant red sword making them insane.

[IanPolaris]

If we are supposed to accept Cullen as a templar moderate, then the Templars do NOT consider mages to be people and that right there is a huge part of the problem. Cullen even speficially and emphatically denies that mages are people and should be treated as such. Even a fellow templar's sister was shocked and asked, "Isn't that a bit harsh?"

-Polaris

[TEWR]

Darth Krytie wrote...

Privateerkev wrote...

Say I am a cop waiting outside a house for a warrant to arrive. While waiting, a gun goes off in the house. I no longer have to wait for the warrant.

That is what happened here...

More like, you're a cop waiting outside a house for a warrant to arrive. While waiting, a gun goes off across the street and you see the man who shot it. Instead of arresting him, you claim probable cause and burst into the house without the warrant.

And most importantly, after you're done with the house, you reveal that you have a magic sword made from a glowing idol that has driven you even more insane than you already were, and you think everyone's a blood mage. So all your reasoning just went out the window. 

We are still talking hypothetical scenarios right?

[TJPags]

PantheraOnca wrote...

TJPags wrote...


So, what, they don't define certain people as people?  Doesn't that, again, mean that they don't think ALL people have rights?

Well, we're quickly leaving the territory of everyday language.

In your first question, the first word people is not the same as the second word people, for instance. This allows them to think that all (relevant) people have rights. Tevinter see non-mages as beasts of burden essentially, Orlais does the same for servants/non-nobility. The qun seem to view those who do not follow the qun more as children rather than beasts in that they can be taught how to be "people."

But that's kind of my point.  Every society on Thedas has different ideas about who deserves "rights" and who doesn't.  Which sort of eliminates the idea that every sentient being is entitled to certain "basic" or "inalienable" rights.

And in virtually no society - save perhaps those of Tevinter and Dalish elves - do they include mages among those who have rights.

[Privateerkev]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...

Privateerkev wrote...

Say I am a cop waiting outside a house for a warrant to arrive. While waiting, a gun goes off in the house. I no longer have to wait for the warrant.

That is what happened here...

More like, you're a cop waiting outside a house for a warrant to arrive. While waiting, a gun goes off across the street and you see the man who shot it. Instead of arresting him, you claim probable cause and burst into the house without the warrant.

And most importantly, after you're done with the house, you reveal that you have a magic sword made from a glowing idol that has driven you even more insane than you already were, and you think everyone's a blood mage. So all your reasoning just went out the window. 

We are still talking hypothetical scenarios right?

what if the cop had a lyrium gun?

or would be more appropiate?

:happy:

[TEWR]

Privateerkev wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...

Privateerkev wrote...

Say I am a cop waiting outside a house for a warrant to arrive. While waiting, a gun goes off in the house. I no longer have to wait for the warrant.

That is what happened here...

More like, you're a cop waiting outside a house for a warrant to arrive. While waiting, a gun goes off across the street and you see the man who shot it. Instead of arresting him, you claim probable cause and burst into the house without the warrant.

And most importantly, after you're done with the house, you reveal that you have a magic sword made from a glowing idol that has driven you even more insane than you already were, and you think everyone's a blood mage. So all your reasoning just went out the window. 

We are still talking hypothetical scenarios right?

what if the cop had a lyrium gun?

or would be more appropiate?

:happy:

firing lyrium bullets? Then, my fellow forumite, **** has hit the fan. He's not only insane, can't be taken seriously anymore, but if we disagree with him we get a lyrium bullet fired at us because he's insane.


Who the hell made this guy a cop?

[Privateerkev]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Privateerkev wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...

Privateerkev wrote...

Say I am a cop waiting outside a house for a warrant to arrive. While waiting, a gun goes off in the house. I no longer have to wait for the warrant.

That is what happened here...

More like, you're a cop waiting outside a house for a warrant to arrive. While waiting, a gun goes off across the street and you see the man who shot it. Instead of arresting him, you claim probable cause and burst into the house without the warrant.

And most importantly, after you're done with the house, you reveal that you have a magic sword made from a glowing idol that has driven you even more insane than you already were, and you think everyone's a blood mage. So all your reasoning just went out the window. 

We are still talking hypothetical scenarios right?

what if the cop had a lyrium gun?

or would be more appropiate?

:happy:

firing lyrium bullets? Then, my fellow forumite, **** has hit the fan. He's not only insane, can't be taken seriously anymore, but if we disagree with him we get a lyrium bullet fired at us because he's insane.


Who the hell made this guy a cop?

i did...

i am so so sorry...

[TEWR]

Privateerkev wrote...

i did...

i am so so sorry...

You fool! You've damned us all!

[Privateerkev]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Privateerkev wrote...

i did...

i am so so sorry...

You fool! You've damned us all!

dammit, why did I ever come back out of lurking?!?

[IanPolaris]

TJPags wrote...

And in virtually no society - save perhaps those of Tevinter and Dalish elves - do they include mages among those who have rights.

That simply isn't true.  The modern Andrastian society is almost unique in that is doesn't respect the human rights of mages.  Even the Qunari respect the rights and honor of Sarabas (talk to the Arishok afterwards) although the Qun define human rights in a very alien manner from everyone else.

In another thread, for example, it was claimed the Dalish don't have their mages under control.  That's not true.  You had a tragic situation from a lot of causes, but you had two people (Merethari and Merrill) that probably put every mage in Kirkwall to shame with their knowledge and control and the keeper is revered. It's the keeper's fault in large part why the clan has reacted so badly to Merrill. 

Then you have the Chasind who have mage Shamans as part (but only PART) of their ruling tribal councils.  The you have the Rivani seers who are respected and honored spirit-mages.  Even the non-Chantry Andrastian cults have a very different (and positive) view of magic.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

Privateerkev wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Privateerkev wrote...

i did...

i am so so sorry...

You fool! You've damned us all!

dammit, why did I ever come back out of lurking?!?

Quickly! Amass the troops! We must take down this vile fiend and his lyrium weapons! It is the only way for you to seek penance!

[PantheraOnca]

TJPags wrote...


But that's kind of my point.  Every society on Thedas has different ideas about who deserves "rights" and who doesn't.  Which sort of eliminates the idea that every sentient being is entitled to certain "basic" or "inalienable" rights.

And in virtually no society - save perhaps those of Tevinter and Dalish elves - do they include mages among those who have rights.

Right, there is difference of opinion on what's a who, but that doesn't mean that there aren't at least the seeds of the idea of basic sentient rights. As has been noted previously, the idea is relatively recent in our culture and doesn't seem to have quite stated itself in a similar way in Thedas. I would say Ferelden is probably the closest to having someone write the (more universal version of the) idea down, with the Qun probably next closest.

This thread seems to have drifted significantly off topic, but what I am trying to address is that some people seem to be saying that just because the idea of universal rights hasn't come up completely yet in Thedas, that we can't judge institutions or attitudes in Thedas by that standard. I would disagree.

The above argument sounds like someone saying that slavery in ancient Egypt wasn't wrong just because no one really objected to slavery.

I have a feeling that people either aren't meaning to say that, or that I'm misreading something. Of course they could be saying that but I have a hard time taking that seriously.

[Torax]

IanPolaris wrote...

If we are supposed to accept Cullen as a templar moderate, then the Templars do NOT consider mages to be people and that right there is a huge part of the problem. Cullen even speficially and emphatically denies that mages are people and should be treated as such. Even a fellow templar's sister was shocked and asked, "Isn't that a bit harsh?"

-Polaris

To be fair. Remember how he was treated in the Circle Tower? We can't really be surprised. Though you can get him to kind of relax on the issue when he considers giving them more of Andraste's teaching

[TEWR]

In another thread, for example, it was claimed the Dalish don't have their mages under control. That's not true. You had a tragic situation from a lot of causes, but you had two people (Merethari and Merrill) that probably put every mage in Kirkwall to shame with their knowledge and control and the keeper is revered. It's the keeper's fault in large part why the clan has reacted so badly to Merrill.

Exactly. Marethari was saying Merrill would bring back the taint and other such nonsense, in a futile effort to make Merrill return after seeing how badly people treat her from her contact with the mirror.

If she was going to bring back the Blight disease (from a cleansed mirror. Which makes Marethari's statements even more idiotic), ceasing contact with the mirror would not have stopped the Blight from developing. So they would've still contracted it.

It's all Marethari's fault. She's a nice and wise woman, but she really is an idiot. Well, save for the demon part in Merrill's Act 3 quest. But even then, if the demon was trapped, how would it have escaped into the mortal realm? The mirror links to a place beyond the Fade as Morrigan told us, so the demon couldn't have used it

[sphinxess]

IanPolaris wrote...

TJPags wrote...

And in virtually no society - save perhaps those of Tevinter and Dalish elves - do they include mages among those who have rights.

That simply isn't true.  The modern Andrastian society is almost unique in that is doesn't respect the human rights of mages.  Even the Qunari respect the rights and honor of Sarabas (talk to the Arishok afterwards) although the Qun define human rights in a very alien manner from everyone else.

In another thread, for example, it was claimed the Dalish don't have their mages under control.  That's not true.  You had a tragic situation from a lot of causes, but you had two people (Merethari and Merrill) that probably put every mage in Kirkwall to shame with their knowledge and control and the keeper is revered. It's the keeper's fault in large part why the clan has reacted so badly to Merrill. 

Then you have the Chasind who have mage Shamans as part (but only PART) of their ruling tribal councils.  The you have the Rivani seers who are respected and honored spirit-mages.  Even the non-Chantry Andrastian cults have a very different (and positive) view of magic.

-Polaris

You have Chantry control of mages in almost every country - its easy to say there aren't enough examples of other ways to treat mages - well surprise! the Chantry won't allow it.

[Addai]

IanPolaris wrote...
Even the Qunari respect the rights and honor of Sarabas (talk to the Arishok afterwards) although the Qun define human rights in a very alien manner from everyone else.

Wow, what?  Any discussion of basic human rights that doesn't entail not being mutilated, chained and treated like an animal is a pretty surreal definition.  A saarebas is just carrying his Gallows around his neck.

It sounds like you're bending the definition to suit your argument.

Modifié par Addai67, 10 avril 2011 - 06:32 .

[TEWR]

Addai67 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Even the Qunari respect the rights and honor of Sarabas (talk to the Arishok afterwards) although the Qun define human rights in a very alien manner from everyone else.

Wow, what?  Any discussion of basic human rights that doesn't entail not being mutilated, chained and treated like an animal is a pretty surreal definition.  A saarebas is just carrying his Gallows around his neck.

It sounds like you're bending the definition to suit your argument.

actually no, the Qunari do respect mages for being a living embodiment of the Qun. They are constantly at war with themselves, having to fight their demons (literally and figuratively). When they die in service to the Qun, they are honored even more.

So no, Polaris is right on this one.

EDIT: However, I do not like what they do to the mages. But they do it out of necessity in their minds, not out of some idea that Qunari mages are not people.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 avril 2011 - 06:35 .

[IanPolaris]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EDIT: However, I do not like what they do to the mages. But they do it out of necessity in their minds, not out of some idea that Qunari mages are not people.

Indeed.  I am not endosing the Qunari system, but in the mind of the Qun, every role comes with chains.  By necessity (per the Qun), Sarabas has to wear them visbily and his role in the Qun is more difficult, but that increases not decreases his respect within the Qun as a person.  I suspect that the Qunari would be as appalleed as I was if they heard Cullen's comment that you can't treat mages like people....in their own very alien way.  [I like the Qunari in that they make me really think about what's right and wrong in a social context.  Sheparding Wolves was one of my favorite quests.]

-Polaris

[Torax]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Even the Qunari respect the rights and honor of Sarabas (talk to the Arishok afterwards) although the Qun define human rights in a very alien manner from everyone else.

Wow, what?  Any discussion of basic human rights that doesn't entail not being mutilated, chained and treated like an animal is a pretty surreal definition.  A saarebas is just carrying his Gallows around his neck.

It sounds like you're bending the definition to suit your argument.

actually no, the Qunari do respect mages for being a living embodiment of the Qun. They are constantly at war with themselves, having to fight their demons (literally and figuratively). When they die in service to the Qun, they are honored even more.

So no, Polaris is right on this one.

EDIT: However, I do not like what they do to the mages. But they do it out of necessity in their minds, not out of some idea that Qunari mages are not people.

Call it what you want. But part of the name means "thing" and they do seem to consider them evil and not truly one of their kinds. Especially to the one holding it's leash.

edited to add. Sten refers to Mages as Beasts if I recall.

Modifié par Torax, 10 avril 2011 - 06:54 .

[IanPolaris]

Torax wrote...
Call it what you want. But part of the name means "thing" and they do seem to consider them evil and not truly one of their kinds. Especially to the one holding it's leash.

edited to add. Sten refers to Mages as Beasts if I recall.

There seems to be a shift in the lore regarding that from DAO to DA2.  The Qunari do have a virulent hatred of magic and I don't codone what they do, but if you talk with the Arishok afte killing Arvaraad, you see the waves of respect that the Arishock is showing to Sarbaras for what he did.  He doesn't speak much of it because he doesn't want to insult Sarabas by insinuating that the right choice was difficult to make.  This is NOT the regard you show to someone you don't regard as a person.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 10 avril 2011 - 07:02 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Seriously. Tell the qunari you're a mage in that quest (Shepharding Wolves) and they will straight-out attack you.

Respect, bro.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 10 avril 2011 - 07:02 .

[Addai]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

actually no, the Qunari do respect mages for being a living embodiment of the Qun. They are constantly at war with themselves, having to fight their demons (literally and figuratively). When they die in service to the Qun, they are honored even more.

So no, Polaris is right on this one.

EDIT: However, I do not like what they do to the mages. But they do it out of necessity in their minds, not out of some idea that Qunari mages are not people.

And Andrastians think that magic serves man.  What's your point?